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Need a Little Help/ Advice....

Started by Dewey, November 22, 2015, 07:04:48 PM

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Dewey

I've almost completed a  Huge job (for me)...  13,000+ BF Of Northern white Cedar,,,,  that much has been delivered... I have about another 3500 BF Left to do.... All of this has been KD and Planed (planning not done be me)some of the Planning was done to a custom Profile....Planer operator tells me it was some of the best he has ever planed.

The Customer a large construction firm in Mass ,contacted me last February for the first time..  Over a course of several months of E-mails ,Phone calls and visits to my Mill along with samples sent they pulled the trigger in August.

I promised them 2500' Clear and the rest STK ( sound tight knots) of course they want all clear but I told them It wouldn't happen .
They agreed to my proposal  , I sawed and had it delivered ...
A week later they complained on the grade of 1 size and wanted me to come and look and discuss.. 2 days before I was to go they said it looks good they were all set.
They ordered the other 3500 BF .
Now I have a call saying another size isn't good enough ... They are grading it #1- #4 Etc....   I told them l we agreed to was STK  Soooooo...
I am going to go to Mass Tuesday to look at it . But I am thinking That as long as the knots are sound I'm not going to do much...  I will replace any that the knots have fallen out.. What's your thoughts ???? ???

Dave Shepard

I would do the same as you. They can't change the rules in the middle of the game.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Nomad

Quote from: Dave Shepard on November 22, 2015, 07:09:01 PM
I would do the same as you. They can't change the rules in the middle of the game.
X2.  If they want to change the rules, they have to wait for the next game.  I bet if they want to play like that a court of law would back you up on it, too.  Do you have a written contract?
     
Buying a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter
WoodMizer LT50HDD51-WR
Lucas DSM23-19

Dewey

Well just got back from a long day.... I drove down to New Hampshire and had a meeting at the jobsite..... It was good to know that the job foreman and the GC thought the Cedar was great....  The architect seems to think that STK means small knots smaller that a dime and no closer than 2' an any given board...Which IS NOT what we originally discussed.....  Yes My bid/ proposal was clear on grade and the signed contract was basically addressing terms of payment and amount of lumber etc...  So it was left today that the owner is coming tomorrow..  and hopefully the STK I sent will look to his liking.... If not I'm thinking that they should have gone with a different species...

dustintheblood

Been exactly in the same type of place with the same species, specs and actors.

I did my due diligence up front with sample boards up the ying yang, written specs etc. to back it all up.  In the end they wanted something that looked so perfect that it musta been plastic.

Unfortunately your experience brings back memories of why I jumped out of the game.  While I loved moving up the value chain like that, it was so hard to keep the architects and designers happy when their ideas just don't align with the realities of wood.

Wood's beautiful because of it's character and unique beauty.  Expecting a tree to grow without limbs is crazy (i.e. clear).  What always made me shake my head was that some of these customers were all "sustainable" "bunny-huggy" when it came to using wood, but then would setup specs and cull rates that would end up with much more than reasonable in the scrap heaps and boiler.

Bottom line is that even more education needs to be done to educate the educated about wood and it's natural beauty - including how to spec it and use it properly.

All the best to you and I hope that you're able to get all parties on the same page and happy
Case 75C, Case 1494, RangeRoad RR10T36, Igland 4001, Hardy 1400ST, WM LT40HD, WM Edger, ICS DH Kiln

Dewey

LOL   I did end up giving a lesson on how trees grow and how clear lumber ends up in logs.....   And the GC said maybe we should have gone with Plastic !!!!!Because of the character in cedar...

Kbeitz

Woods just not what it was like back in the old days.
I build thing out of wood. I only started using a sawmill this year.
I would buy all my building lumber. I bought lumber from old building being taking down.
Last two places that I got wood from had nothing but long clear boards in them.
Both places was over 100 years old. Old virgin timber is pretty much gone.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

drobertson

This sounds a little confusing to me, mainly from the stand point, did they just order enough to cover the job, or an extra % even 5%?  And if the just barely covered the job description, they were expecting every board to work, so in my way of thinking they had to be near perfect, which cost a premium.  In the end it sounds to me like you did good and they may have messed up somewhere, then put the blame on your end,  hope the next one smooths out for you.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Magicman

Quote from: Kbeitz on November 25, 2015, 01:55:54 AMOld virgin timber is pretty much gone.
Actually any tree that has not been felled is a virgin timber.  :D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Kbeitz

Quote from: Magicman on November 25, 2015, 08:05:42 AM
Quote from: Kbeitz on November 25, 2015, 01:55:54 AMOld virgin timber is pretty much gone.
Actually any tree that has not been felled is a virgin timber.  :D

Your right... What I call virgin timber is where no timber has ever been cut.
I live about 20 miles from Ricket-Glenn state park. They have what I call virgin timber.
Big and beautiful. Even when it dies and falls down you cant have it.



 
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Magicman

 :D  I knew what you meant, but there was no "tongue in cheek" smiley face.  ;) 

I do not know of any timber tracts here that are preserved and fully protected.  :-\ 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Outer Rondacker

I run into stuff like this all the time on many different levels. Pencil pushers without a clue. Send the order. If the workers like it its going up. Oh and dont forget to charge for the trip and downtime you spent dealing with the hold up. ;D

My better half is always telling me I care to much about what the customer thinks. I will bend over backwards to make them happy. I am starting to learn some will never be happy and push for as much free or special treatment they can get no mater what. Good luck but it sounds like you have it covered.

Dewey

Quote from: drobertson on November 25, 2015, 07:04:23 AM
This sounds a little confusing to me, mainly from the stand point, did they just order enough to cover the job, or an extra % even 5%?  And if the just barely covered the job description, they were expecting every board to work, so in my way of thinking they had to be near perfect, which cost a premium.  In the end it sounds to me like you did good and they may have messed up somewhere, then put the blame on your end,  hope the next one smooths out for you.

Yes they ordered 10 % extra....  And they did pay a Premium price for a Premium Cedar... What they got was a Top Grade STK Northern White Cedar..
We never discussed size or number of knots, I told them it would have knots butt they would be tight....  Cedar is a pretty knotty wood . After seeing all of it, they upped their grade saying they didn't want knots bigger than a Dime and spaced no closer than 2'...  I did supply some clear for another portion of the job ....  the Contractor says it all looks great the Architect has the problem ..
I guess he had no Idea what Cedar looks like !!!


dustintheblood

".... the Contractor says it all looks great the Architect has the problem"

::)

Yep well there's yer problem.  Architects are a wonderful breed.  However finding ones that have ever held a hammer or touched a nail are few and far between.  I think that the digital age has amplified the problem even further cause all the plans look so dang pretty on the screen, and that is what the owner/contractor then expects.

I've worked with some great ones, and some real nutty ones.  And yeah some that will never make it past my dog at the front gate again.
Case 75C, Case 1494, RangeRoad RR10T36, Igland 4001, Hardy 1400ST, WM LT40HD, WM Edger, ICS DH Kiln

Bruno of NH

The drawing agent don't get northern white cedar
It's full of knots
His coco butter books must have pics of cedar
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

woodmills1

KB  I used to go to rickett glen in the early 70's.  I lived in Newton NJ and had friends who went to Wilks who introduced me.  It is one of the nicest state parks I ever experienced.  Is there still a sign at the lower entrance that says Caution darkness comes quickly at ricketts glen?
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Dave Shepard

Or as Yogi Berra would have said: "It gets late awful early around here!" :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Dewey

Things just get weirder....  I got a Email from the contractor, They met with the owner today.... I guess things went pretty good....Like I said earlier they had no idea where you get clear lumber from...  I guess they thought if you buy clear logs on the outside it would be clear all the way through...!! So I had explained how trees grow and why as you get into the center of it you get knots....  and why some knots are tight and some fall out.....
Apparently they discussed this with the owner, and now he would like me to write a narrative on  the characteristics of Cedar and why it is a durable wood... And why it is hard to get clear lumber, as well as estimate how many more feet I would have to saw to get the 13000' all clear !!!So that he can better understand... LOL   Sounds like I'm back in school and have to write a report.. :P
One good thing that they admitted in the e-mail was that specification's that they are being held to were not conveyed to me prior to or when they came to my mill... So they are going to High Grade what I sent  to them... I am still not sure what is going to be done with the wood that is not up to their "Specs"
Still not sure about the lumber that I have sawed and is waiting in limbo....
I can't see me spending to much time writing , but I may invite the owner to my Mill so I can give a hands on demonstration !!

beenthere

And this Northern white cedar is being used as paneling?

Must be places that already have that cedar in use that you could either take pics or take them to the site(s).

To me, sounds like some wrong idea of which cedar you have spec'd, and the architect thinking of western red cedar.  Clear is very bland... I have a lot of T&G 6" wide cedar paneling for ceiling and even have some black knots that I put up.

Good luck...
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

YellowHammer

Quote from: Dewey on November 25, 2015, 10:27:04 PM
Apparently they discussed this with the owner, and now he would like me to write a narrative on  the characteristics of Cedar and why it is a durable wood... And why it is hard to get clear lumber, as well as estimate how many more feet I would have to saw to get the 13000' all clear !!!So that he can better understand... LOL   Sounds like I'm back in school and have to write a report.. :P

I don't know that I would write them anything until they wrote me a check for what I had already sawn. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Bruno of NH

The owner is making you dance to get your money .
You worked hard to make that lumber .
Payment should be made .
This is why I no longer work for the Rich .
I'm not some ones toy just so they have some thing to do.
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

rasman57

The only reason they want you to write the narrative is to "explain" to the owner what you have explained to them.   Obviously they are trying to make someone else happy because they did not understand what they were getting. 

Any written justification at this point seems to be counter productive as it implies they are "seeing and hearing" it for the first time and you are just now explaining it...which clearly (pun intended) is not the case.  If they ordered what turned out to be unsuitable to the owner, that is not your fault or problem unless you choose to make it so.  If an architect needs a sawyer to prepare a thesis on characteristics of wood he is paid to spec after he spec'd it...... well let's just say that would be closing barn door after the horse fled.

If you and the owner alone were standing in front of the samples and the initial wood and the owner said he thought it was not suitable, it is easy to figure out where the problem  came from.....the middle folks.   Of course he was not there probably but it is sure looking like communication from them to the owner may be suspect. 

Of course they would like to have you "fix" the problem.   There are always a couple sides to every misunderstanding.  It is usually easy enough to sort out if all parties are together.   If the owner and you have never spoke and he is the one unhappy according to the contractor because of the architect (see how it points to communication), I would bypass the narrative.   I think the owner thought one thing, the architect another....otherwise why would the architect be concerned?   

Pretty hard for the them to just say, "owner does not like what we ordered".   That is the sound of money being spent at their expense.   But if that is the case, it sure should not be your problem.     Hope it works out for you with an equitable solution for all.   I just do not see how you writing any type of explanation or narrative does anything productive.   If it is for the owner, let the guy getting paid by the owner to spec the correct stuff write it.  If he didn't know back then, he failed his boss.   If he wants to not pay you and claim you changed the order specs he may want you to "explain" why.   I would not write anything new at this point.   Me and the owner would talk to determine if the architect or contractor failed to communicate.

beenthere

rasman.. very well stated and explained, IMO.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

redprospector

A general understanding is a misunderstanding.
I would want to meet with the owner, and discuss things, hoping to resolve the problem.
Check to make sure that there isn't any official definition somewhere that would state the size and frequency of knots in "STK", because if there is a definition that would define "STK" and that is the term you used, then I think you would be bound by that definition in a court of law. I would not write any narrative. Mainly because anything you put in writing "can and will be used against you".
Sounds like the engineer and contractor have already covered themselves with the owner, and are willing to hang you out to dry.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

dustintheblood

Quote from: redprospector on November 26, 2015, 03:25:02 PM
A general understanding is a misunderstanding.
I would want to meet with the owner, and discuss things, hoping to resolve the problem.
Check to make sure that there isn't any official definition somewhere that would state the size and frequency of knots in "STK", because if there is a definition that would define "STK" and that is the term you used, then I think you would be bound by that definition in a court of law. I would not write any narrative. Mainly because anything you put in writing "can and will be used against you".
Sounds like the engineer and contractor have already covered themselves with the owner, and are willing to hang you out to dry.

That's well said.  Your point about an absence of grading system for cedar is very accurate, and it makes the situation worse.  SPF is covered by the grading agencies, and there are dispute mechanisms in place to cover everyone's butts, but cedar is pretty much a no-mans land of rules.

Really hope this shakes out in your favour!!
Case 75C, Case 1494, RangeRoad RR10T36, Igland 4001, Hardy 1400ST, WM LT40HD, WM Edger, ICS DH Kiln

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