Ruff sawn lumber prices

[dsgsr]

How do I find out what to charge for ruff sawn lumber in the State of Maine, Any price list out there?

David

[ladylake]

 

Call up some mills around you and ask what they charge.  Steve

[starmac]

The only commercial mill (of any size) we have here, has their price list online. There just might be some online in your area, if you are good with your googlefu.

[Chuck White]

If you have any Amish mills, ask for a copy of their price sheet!

[longtime lurker]

Cost plus 20%

[bkaimwood]

Checking with the Amish mills is a place to start and guage your decisions... However, in many areas, you will go broke fast trying to compete with them... Around here, many of them do not pay for their logs...how can you compete with that. Some do, and it varies, just be careful. If I get an inquiry that I sense is mainly price based, or someone starts telling me about Amish pricing, I pretty much just tell them flat out, I can't compete on most species. However, this varies regionally, like most things...

[bkaimwood]

Or better yet...go into your local lumber yard, and see, for instance, what they get for a 1x6x8 in oak...then price accordingly, and saw a better board...

[Bandmill Bandit]

Cost plus 20%

20 % is way to low for mark up. I do minimum 50% on common products and a LOT more on one off stuff you cant get unless I make it for you.

At 20% you have to start with 5 million if you wanted to end up with a cool million to retire on running a saw mill business.

Any hard woods I cut/sell around here are minimum 2 bucks a board foot, and we don't  have a whole bunch of that around here. Most of the good birch I get goes out the door for 4 bucks/BF and up. Price for good fireplace mantel is almost immoral in terms of $/MBF so I wont post it. Most say my prices are too low for the quality I give.

I have one slab of 3"X 42" X 16' quarter sawn Douglas fir available that will probably give me about 9 x 5 foot by 12 inch  mantles. Those mantles start at 1000 a piece plus what ever time/materials I put in to get them finish/mount ready. Generally about another 800 bucks plus including a custom made Newell type hidden bracket an sanded to a 320 or better automotive sand paper finish.   

[beenthere]

Or better yet...go into your local lumber yard, and see, for instance, what they get for a 1x6x8 in oak...then price accordingly, and saw a better board...

If you find that 1x6x8 oak board at a lumber yard, it likely will be clear.. no defect. Likely be kiln dried and may even be wrapped in clear wrap. And a pretty high price tag on it.. Not a ruff sawn board either.  No offense meant to bkaimwood

If you saw a better board, then you will still have to find a market and price for the other 95+% of your grade lumber and below, as all boards will not be clear. Just thinkin...

[longtime lurker]

Cost plus 20%

20 % is way to low for mark up. I do minimum 50% on common products and a LOT more on one off stuff you cant get unless I make it for you.

At 20% you have to start with 5 million if you wanted to end up with a cool million to retire on running a saw mill business.

Any hard woods I cut/sell around here are minimum 2 bucks a board foot, and we don't  have a whole bunch of that around here. Most of the good birch I get goes out the door for 4 bucks/BF and up. Price for good fireplace mantel is almost immoral in terms of $/MBF so I wont post it. Most say my prices are too low for the quality I give.

I have one slab of 3"X 42" X 16' quarter sawn Douglas fir available that will probably give me about 9 x 5 foot by 12 inch  mantles. Those mantles start at 1000 a piece plus what ever time/materials I put in to get them finish/mount ready. Generally about another 800 bucks plus including a custom made Newell type hidden bracket an sanded to a 320 or better automotive sand paper finish.

I suspect that we calculate our costs far differently.
I'm all for slugging them on the specialty stuff... And I'd even say it's necessary to do so to average up the regular stuff to stay afloat.

My definition of costs isn't based around one job, or one board... It's based around one year of  operational expenditure - the good the bad and the ugly - and there are very few business that can cover real cost of doing business and make 20% taxable profit over and above. Most struggle to get 8%.

One of the major issues startup and part time business owners face is they don't truly understand what it's costing to run the business : result being they make a profit on every deal but come end of year they're in the red or have worked for nothing.

[Bandmill Bandit]

LTL you got it right and thats why I stay part time, specialty products, and keep my prices up there. (High) I stay under a certain gross revenue threshold intentionally. It works very well and is ridiculously profitable. The odd mill run job of SPF for volume has its purpose but it ain't to make a profit as much evidence a perception and "create" costs to cover and support the mother lode. What remains to be said will remain unsaid.

My system is very effective and profitable. Selling a piece of 6ish foot aspen, birch, box elder, etc for a 1000 bucks and up regularly makes it worth while. The side lumber to get the good cants sells for real good money too. More than pays expenses. 
 

[bkaimwood]

No offense taken beenthere... Perfectly valid points...higher grade stuff like you mentioned is my bread and butter. I'm looking at a stack of 600bf of clear quartersawn oak right now that is 9 feet long, up to 9" wide, up to 8/4...sawn right, 100% clear of ANY defect, sawn clean of pith...will be flat as can be with 2 planer passes. Won't even find stuff this quality, let alone this size at the big box stores. I go out of my way to find and buy my premium logs, and this end product that is hard to find and buy anywhere makes $$. The lower grade stuff that comes with and is part of buying logs gets sawed fast and sold cheap...keeps me moving, keeps the positive cash flow moving, though it's sluggish at times. The premium sales are like monthly bonuses...they are more spaced out, of course, but pay 4 times what regular sales do. Blowing low grade out cheap also makes customers happy, spreads awareness and word, and helps build the business... The hardest part. Hope I didn't go too far off tangent, just feel that this info is helpful to newer fellas like me, and can help keep a guy moving. I guess to summarize my situation, I saw premium stuff that pays good $ more sporadically... I saw lower grade stuff I sell cheap to keep moving tagged as utility grade to keep some cash flow. I have yet to significantly enter the in between, of commonly sawing and selling all the in between stuff. The reasons for that are many. First, there's alot of mills around here, and this is what they do. I know a large percentage of fellas on here do to, and its there bread and butter. But as a newer business, if I thought I'd start out and compete with 30 local mills selling common lumber, I'd be a fool, destined to fail before I started. The other problem for me is space...it takes more space to get into these areas, and I don't have it yet. Hopefully, one day...slow and steady...hope I was helpful

[dsgsr]

Why No replies from Mainers? Are you afraid of divulging your prices to competition? Just asking.

David 

[beenthere]

dsgsr
You have not said if this is green, or air dried, or kiln dried "ruff" sawn.

Also, no information as to grade, or species, thickness, if random widths, what lengths, or volume selling.

Doubt people are "afraid", but suspect they may not have a clue to what you want to know.

What do you think?

[drobertson]

There are many secrets in trying to start up, which I figure goes on all the time.   All I can add is know what you are selling and find markets in your area that buy rough lumber, and I can only assume you are speaking of green off the mill.  20% above cost is a good and fair average, but not necessarily the norm, as stated, grade has a large impact on the pricing, as does specialty sawing.  So, yes folks will keep a tight lip, but not the buyers,  you should find who buys within your ability to supply, and expect to be graded on the lumber.  As to custom jobs, the door is wide open, you just have to enter and see where it leads.  Many of us have learned the hard way, and as for me, still learning, 

[longtime lurker]

Why No replies from Mainers? Are you afraid of divulging your prices to competition? Just asking.

David

Dude...
Please dont take this the wrong way but what anyone else charges for a job is pretty irrelevant. It's what you charge that matters, and can you make money at that price.

If you can't produce as cheap as the guy down the road because he's got better equipment/ more experience/ gets his logs for free then you can't do it. It's called racing for the bottom and believe me its sent a lot of people broke in this industry over the years.

If his cost base is higher then yours then it works the other way.

If one of you has better quality thats a major factor: The cheapest guy around often doesn't get as much work as the guy with more accurately sawn product. Go to build a house with badly sawn lumber and you'll soon figure out why.

If one can value add - treatment/kiln/ drymill - then thats throws it all out too. People like to "one stop shop" and tend to be repeat customers if they're happy. They might not want KD this week but mostly they start with the guy they used last time if it was a positive sales experience for them.

I know its really hard when you have limited experience to figure out your costs but the only way you can do it is by running a mill:- buy logs, make lumber, factor in fuel and blade costs and depreciation and pay yourself and any helpers for your time. Read that last again... pay yourself for your time. Even if you aint got the money to do it you have to factor in what you'd be getting if you were working for someone else somewhere else. That number there - wages equivalent - is where so many small guys fail to adequately figure real cost.
If portable figure out what it costs you to shift a mill per mile - tyres, rego, insurance, accelerated wear and tear on the towing unit.

Then look at your product objectively for dimensional accuracy and straightness to see how you compare with whats available at the local hardware.
Call the hardware store - or whomever sells an equivalent product locally - and get pricing. Maybe not the immediate local one because they know you've got a mill, but over a county or three... close enough that the pricing is relevant. "Hi my name is Joe and I need to build a house and want pricing on..." and give them a whole list. It tells you what you have to compete with. Do the same with a local sawmill. Get a friend to call if you don't want them to know its you.

Ultimately, it boils down to charging more then it costs YOU to run. To do that you need to hit the key, make some sawdust, write down the full costs involved, then divide the cost by the output in BF. It costs me X cents per BF to produce so if I don't charge Y I shouldnt be here.

And read my tagline - it tells you everything you need to know about the business of sawmilling.

And good luck with it. If you've got the sawdust disease its a good ( not necessarily lucrative) way to make a living.

[Kbeitz]

I found the best way to see what your lumber is worth is to saw sum up and take it
to a couple different consignment sales and watch it sell.
It's a sure way to sell and it might surprise you.

[bandmiller2]

David, I'am south of you but I charge .50/BF pine and 1.00/ bf oak, I supply the logs. I have regular customers that seem happy and keep coming back. If some don't want to pay that I give them the names of other sawyers and wish them luck. Frank C.

[dsgsr]

David, I'am south of you but I charge .50/BF pine and 1.00/ bf oak, I supply the logs. I have regular customers that seem happy and keep coming back. If some don't want to pay that I give them the names of other sawyers and wish them luck. Frank C.

Thank you Bandmiller2, that is the type of info. I'm looking for. I'm not doing this on a large scale at present. I bought the mill to do just for myself, I have 123 acres of land and many different species to choose from. But have as of late had a few people ask if I would saw for them (small amounts). I am realizing that I am going to have too make some $$ to support my habit. The mill I have (Northlander) is not very accurate, so everything will have to be oversized for planing. I don't have a Planer large enough for production so that would have to be hired out.  I do have a Sunna that we don't use and am thinking of using it for a Kiln (If it's do-able).

What do you charge for white Ash?

Thank you again,
David

[Magicman]

David, I'am south of you but I charge .50/BF pine

I would hate to think that I had to fell, buck, skid, and then saw and only get double my sawing price.   

[landscraper]

David, I'am south of you but I charge .50/BF pine

I would hate to think that I had to fell, buck, skid, and then saw and only get double my sawing price.   

Just goes to show you regional variations in prices.  I am in Virginia, I only cut to order out of my own supply of logs.  $1.75/bf and up for utility grade items, up to $4.00 for anything special or unusual.  I cut anything from lowboy decking and dumptruck boards and barn siding up through live edge slabs and craft lumber.  Mostly cedar, ewp,  red/white oak, walnut and cherry.  I don't bother trying to sell framing lumber.  No planing, drying, molding, or the like, just first-pass lumber right off the mill.  It's a side business for me, not high-volume at all, and I set my prices based on my perceptions of value, and if they accept the price quote i start sawing.  If not, I thank them for their interest and wish them a good day.  I have seen a couple of guys in nearby counties advertising on Craigslist at $3.00/bf for rough sawn hardwoods, so I must not be too far off. 

I briefly tried cutting lumber first and then selling it.  No dice.  Now it sits in the log pile until someone wants it converted from round to square.

I was once told that I'd have no problems selling dollar bills for fifty cents if I chose to do so.  I chose not.

[Dave Shepard]

David, I'am south of you but I charge .50/BF pine

I would hate to think that I had to fell, buck, skid, and then saw and only get double my sawing price.   

I think bandmiller is one of those guys getting free tree service logs. ;) I sell EWP for $0.80/ft and up.

[Magicman]

True, but the OP's Reply #18 indicated that he was planning to harvest his own trees.  That is much different from sawing and selling free logs. 

Remember that drying and even planned lumber adds much value.  On another note, diluting the market with sawn free logs hurts those such as the OP with his efforts to saw and market his own timber.

[sandsawmill14]

i can get all the pine logs i want for 25- 30 bucks per ton and i'm not buy any. there is no market at all right now. cant even sell it for pallet stock.  if i could get 500  per mbdft i would jump on it 
last load of log run oak only averaged about 475 mbdft :(

[tmarch]

With all due respect, your price has nothing to do with what others are charging.  Your costs HAVE to be covered no matter what.  Anything over and above is either enough to make wages and some extra or it's not.  I operate my several business ventures without regard to "suggested retail" which has caused some to complain that I undercut them.  To me it's good business to cover your costs and operate for less, if not Walmart and many other stores wouldn't be doing as well as they are.

[longtime lurker]

True, but the OP's Reply #18 indicated that he was planning to harvest his own trees.  That is much different from sawing and selling free logs. 

Remember that drying and even planned lumber adds much value.  On another note, diluting the market with sawn free logs hurts those such as the OP with his efforts to saw and market his own timber.

Yah, means hes got to run chainsaws and a skidder - or an axe and a horse team - skidder is cheaper to run then horses anyway.

And hes got to pay taxes on the land, and think about sivicultural management, and the hundred other unseen costs that go with harvesting your own logs. And when hes harvesting logs whos running the sawmill? I know there are scale things involved with it - you do one job today and the other tomorrow - but I also know that a lot of those costs are there.

Sometimes its cheaper just to buy truckloads of trees.

[Magicman]

My full intention when I bought my sawmill was to harvest my own trees and sell lumber.  Within 6 months I realized that my intentions would not be met, and within a year I was out of the lumber business and offering a portable sawing service only.  For me, it was a wise choice.

[longtime lurker]

I was the opposite. I'd been a sawmiller before, but had sold out and built an earthmoving business. Me going back into milling was more a reaction to the waste of good logs that we were pushing up into heaps to burn. It was just going to be  for a bit of beer money on the side.... :D
I had the dozers and loaders etc required so that shifting back into harvesting was the easy part.

[thecfarm]

I'm the odd one out here. I sell my logs. BUT I keep a few for me to saw too. I was just asked to saw enough lumber for a garage. Real easy for me to say no now.

[drobertson]

It really is pretty easy in one sense.  You clean up your land, improve your timber stand, and make some cash on the side.  The only other thing I might add is to learn some of the lumber grading for the timber in your area,  learn how to sticker stack your lumber properly, and sort the fancy separate from the run of the mill stock.  It can be very rewarding, and it can be very frustrating, as earlier stated, find out your cost for doing it, be willing to be flexible on how you price, at least at the POS,  I still believe a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush,  there will be learning curves for quite some time.

[bandmiller2]

Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest, I gave the short dirty answer as I was falling asleep at the keyboard. Prices vary a lot depending on location, the prices I gave are basically what I charge to cut. In my yuppie stroon area 25 miles west of Boston we don't have many loggers just land clearers and tree service guys. All the smaller pine is chipped. The big pine  ends up ground up, colored and spread as mulch. The tree guys especially the smaller operators have to pay to dispose of large logs. They make their money cutting and are more than glad to deliver to me. Usually I cut stuff for them in return. David, as the guys said if your logging your own trees you must charge more. Its good form to have you prices close to what others in your area are charging, good friendly service helps you float to the top like fresh cream. Good luck mate. Frank C.

[dsgsr]

Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest, I gave the short dirty answer as I was falling asleep at the keyboard. Prices vary a lot depending on location, the prices I gave are basically what I charge to cut. In my yuppie stroon area 25 miles west of Boston we don't have many loggers just land clearers and tree service guys. All the smaller pine is chipped. The big pine  ends up ground up, colored and spread as mulch. The tree guys especially the smaller operators have to pay to dispose of large logs. They make their money cutting and are more than glad to deliver to me. Usually I cut stuff for them in return. David, as the guys said if your logging your own trees you must charge more. Its good form to have you prices close to what others in your area are charging, good friendly service helps you float to the top like fresh cream. Good luck mate. Frank C.

I was kinda hopen everyone would chime in with this type of info. It's helpful to newbies. I'm not lookin to take over the world of sawing and under cut everyone. Just starting out, wasn't going to go commercial. Just needed to know what to charge the occasional customer. Think of it this way, If I know what everyone in may area is charging then I will charge that amount. I may not be doing this everyday but don't want to give the stuff away, That will keep the price where it should be and we all are happy.

David

[bandmiller2]

David, you asked about ash, myself it gets lumped in with hardwoods. I have found oak and white pine are what I sell. I have trouble moving other woods like ash you need someone that wants it specifically. The ideal thing is if you make something with the wood you cut that can be sold at higher profit like adirondak chairs or wood lobster traps for the flat landers lawn orniments. Frank C.

[ely]

I sell more like frank c does than anyone else...it works for me so far.
I have noticed several people lately calling for mantle pieces...? I generally charge by the piece they buy and cut to order. it usually winds up being the price of whatever lumber I could have sold out of that log I used to get the mantle piece. imo. you basically sacrifice the whole log to get a couple mantle pieces. I have sold mantle pieces for 75 bucks before,but a lot of folks that call to get prices are scared off by the seemingly low prices because I am assuming they equate price with quality.
I make the most money from builders that show up to buy the mantle pieces, because they usually buy all the mantle pieces I have laying around at those prices...and when I know they are coming I saw a lot of the mantle pieces to place around the mill area. helps the bottom line  when I start with a couple 25 dollar logs and sell several hundred bucks works of product at once.

[Stuart Caruk]

I'll admit that I haven't been doing this very long, but I already knew it was a waste of time to saw dimensional lumber. The mills make it so cheap you can buy it finished and planed for .36 a BF. I'm not even going to try to buy a tree, or use one of mine off one of our properties for that. To me the market is in larger beams and timbers cut free of heart or big boxed heart timbers. I typically get $3 BF for these, which makes it worth the time to cut.

Even then, making a free of heart beam will use up a lot of the log, and I end up with a fair bit of side lumber (or firewood) depending on mine or my wifes mood. I think the real market is in the longer than 20' stuff that everyone can make. I've got orders for 28 10" x 18" timbers 30' in length. They have no problems with the $3 BF price as it turns out that while there are a lot of mills around here, there are very few that can cut over 20'.

I figure I need to recoup the cost of my larger equipment that is used to feed the mill. I hope to get my slab poured in the next week or so so I can extend my mill and get a decent cover on it.

[snowshoveler]

I have been sawing in 1 form or another for about 10 years.
Never was much interested in sawing 2x4s.
Always ended up with a few and folks were always after them right away.
An 8 footer from a local big mill goes for about $3.15 cdn. and that's not planed either.
A friend had a truck full and he was quite proud of them...yikes, they were not very good in my opinion.
In my area I think I could sell dressed 2x4s for about 4 bucks each. I can sure make good on that.
It's just because anything built to code now is supposed to be 2x6 so the mills don't saw much for 2x4.
Took me a while to figure that out. People still want to build smaller non code buildings and 2x4s are fine for that here.
I guess you have to do a bit of homework and see what will sell in your area.
Regards Chris

[crowhill]

Pricing, wow! I'm all over the board, no pun intended! I do own woodlots and have spent 35 years working them pulling firewood and logs using worst first method. The past few years have been pulling and sending the prime logs out. The lesser quality pine including pulp to some degree, I saw, some gets left in the woods on the ground, other dead stuff remains standing all to create habitat. The hardwoods of poor quality goes to firewood. Pine I saw goes for .35 to .75 per bdft. depending on grade. Doesn't put a lot of cash into my pocket sawing but it's a better price than pulp, gives material for my and family projects, helps some folks working on their home projects and teaches responsibility to the grand kids. I also do some sawing for other land owners. When I got my mill in 2002 and called around for ideas on fees an old timer told me to charge $1.00 per horse power of the mill plus my time by the hour and follow the cost of living for increases. Has worked well for me.