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debating building a self loading processor

Started by bigblue12v, November 13, 2015, 02:11:51 PM

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bigblue12v

I got piles of parts. I have a Jacobsen commercial mower with a splitter attachment I built last winter now I wanna turn it into a processor. Kubota 3 cylinder diesel 22hp. 13 GPM single stage pump 4" x34" cylinder. Cannibalizing this unit for a processor would give me a couple small cylinders previously used for power steering and deck lift which would be good actuators for saw and log clamp. The mower deck when attached runs off the 13gpm PTO pump and is hydraulic driven with a motor. 72" deck. This motor and pump could be good for a saw. An additional 22-28gpm 2 stage pump for the splitter and a hydraulic winch, Wallenstein style. Or just do it completely Wallenstein style using a regular chainsaw mounted on a pivot. I have pretty good cycle time now but I imagine with a 28gpm 2 stage, auto cycle valve and a ms660 doing the blocking, things would move along very nicely. Use the 13 GPM pump to run the winch and adjustable wedge, maybe an outfeed  conveyor down the road as well.
I'm thinking I'll have more than enough engine if I go the self contained Stihl saw method, and maybe just barely enough engine for a hydraulic saw setup. I'm pretty torn here honestly. Would like some thoughts. I don't have much good support equipment to load a log table and want to keep it kind of low budget which is why I'm thinking use a regular chainsaw at least at first. I can attempt hydraulic later. I have an extra trailer minus deck also that would make a good chassis to mount it all on.
Thoughts? Keep in mind that Kubota is 22hp but I think close to 40 lb/ft of torque. Easily as much power as a 30hp gas engine. It's really good on fuel and I feel it's not as obnoxious to listen to as a gas engine. Plus engine driven fan cools the hydraulic fluid. It's a great pile of parts and the mower chassis itself is just getting too wore out to be a reliable lawn mower.
Lots of junk not enough time.. full time mechanic part time logger, firewood junkie, outside boiler owner, meat smoker enthusiast, fabricator, dad, husband

bigblue12v

I think I have decided to use a buzz saw instead of a chain saw, and use a traditional chain drag style feed trough. Logs will be loaded onto a "dead" (not live) feed table with a hydraulic powered log lift. I'll employ the 13gpm pump and mower deck drive motor for the buzz saw, a direct engine driven 28 GPM 2 stage pump, auto cycle valve and a 4 or 4.5" cylinder for splitting. A belt driven lower flow pump for the log lift, feed, saw clamp and saw actuator cylinders.
I have enough hydraulic parts around that I only need to buy the splitting components, and some valves and hoses for everything else. I'll likely chop up the mower so as to use its power train section all in tact meaning it's mostly a self contained power unit with all its cooling components and fluid reservoirs mounted right there. Makes the most sense to me much less work that way. So I need a bunch of steel and some hydraulic goodies, bearings and a chain for the feed trough. Should be a good time! Haha... As for out feed conveyor I'm not worried about that at this time. I'll use an out feed trough that I'd like to use to fill up those chemical tote skid mounted cages. I feel pretty confident that this will be a slick setup in its own right. Don't need to do 200 cord a year but simply can't make time to do 40 cord with my current situation. Also I need a winter project in the shop and I have been yearning to build a processor so doing this will satisfy the itch for a while.
Lots of junk not enough time.. full time mechanic part time logger, firewood junkie, outside boiler owner, meat smoker enthusiast, fabricator, dad, husband

lopet

What a shame to cut up that bota .  :D
If I understand this right you're planning on running two pumps of that 22 HP engine, but you're not using both at the same time ?

Will be interesting to see , how it turns out.   Get er done !!!
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

mjeselskis

The processor we're building is using basically the same donor. It was a Jacobsen reel mower with a 3 cyl Kubota, either 22 or 25hp. It has a 18gpm variable displacement pump with a tandem small gear pump and I am bolting a 28 gpm 2 stage on the other end in place of the original 13gpm single stage. The 28 will run the splitter, the 18gpm will run the saw, and the small gear pump will run the auxiliaries. (Infeed rolls, 4 way wedge adjustment, saw cylinder) I know I only have enough hp to either run the saw or the splitter, but not both and I'm fine with that.
2006 WM LT28  1993 John Deere 5300
Husqvarna 562XP & 365 X-Torq

bigblue12v

Quote from: mjeselskis on November 14, 2015, 07:44:11 PM
The processor we're building is using basically the same donor. It was a Jacobsen reel mower with a 3 cyl Kubota, either 22 or 25hp. It has a 18gpm variable displacement pump with a tandem small gear pump and I am bolting a 28 gpm 2 stage on the other end in place of the original 13gpm single stage. The 28 will run the splitter, the 18gpm will run the saw, and the small gear pump will run the auxiliaries. (Infeed rolls, 4 way wedge adjustment, saw cylinder) I know I only have enough hp to either run the saw or the splitter, but not both and I'm fine with that.

Super interested in your build as we are going to be having very similar setups! I assume your wanting to run a chain saw though? If it's the D950 engine that's what mine is, they're 21.5hp technically. However I have my pump tweaked so to say 22hp is probably honest lol
Yes I won't necessarily be able to cut while splitting but hopefully I can cut while the splitter is retracting. The buzz saw will have a lot of flywheel power so I think it's doable. Right now I'm just browsing around looking for a blade all I can find new that's affordable is Chinese and I'm not really interested in that. Do you have a build thread going for yours? Would love to keep up on yours. Hurry and get it done so I have a baseline to go off of lol
Lots of junk not enough time.. full time mechanic part time logger, firewood junkie, outside boiler owner, meat smoker enthusiast, fabricator, dad, husband

bigblue12v

Quote from: lopet on November 14, 2015, 07:38:03 PM
What a shame to cut up that bota .  :D
If I understand this right you're planning on running two pumps of that 22 HP engine, but you're not using both at the same time ?

Will be interesting to see , how it turns out.   Get er done !!!

Three pumps just like mjeselskis. 13gpm single stage saw pump, 22- 28gpm 2 stage splitter pump, and a third small single stage pump for everything else.
Lots of junk not enough time.. full time mechanic part time logger, firewood junkie, outside boiler owner, meat smoker enthusiast, fabricator, dad, husband

snowstorm

Quote from: mjeselskis on November 14, 2015, 07:44:11 PM
The processor we're building is using basically the same donor. It was a Jacobsen reel mower with a 3 cyl Kubota, either 22 or 25hp. It has a 18gpm variable displacement pump with a tandem small gear pump and I am bolting a 28 gpm 2 stage on the other end in place of the original 13gpm single stage. The 28 will run the splitter, the 18gpm will run the saw, and the small gear pump will run the auxiliaries. (Infeed rolls, 4 way wedge adjustment, saw cylinder) I know I only have enough hp to either run the saw or the splitter, but not both and I'm fine with that.
variable displacement pump i assume that ran the hystat drive? a load sensing pump will also need a load sensing pressure compensated valve or valve bank a load sense line from the valve to the pump and know what the stand by psi should be along with the load sense psi. if done right it could work real well if done wrong it wount work at all

mjeselskis

Snowstorm, you've got my attention. Maybe my simple plan has a flaw. The variable displacement pump is from the hydrostatic drive. I plan to move the lever that actuate the swash plate with a linkage fed off the bar movement. That way the saws at full speed once it leaves its park position. The movement of the bar will be controlled with a simple spool valve and  to way cylinder. Are you suggesting that the movement of the saw bar is controlled based on the pressure from the variable displacement pump based on load? This seems like a good solution but I haven't figured out how to do that yet. Is it some sort of pressure compensated spool valve to feed into the saw cylinder?
2006 WM LT28  1993 John Deere 5300
Husqvarna 562XP & 365 X-Torq

lopet

Do a search on a sequence valve , which blockbuster uses on their processors.  They have probably almost 30 years experience and seem to know what they're doing . 
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

mjeselskis

Thanks lopet. I've seen the sequence valves, but my application with a variable displacement pump feeding the saw motor means I don't have (or need) a valve to control the flow to the saw motor so I don't think a sequence valve would do me any good. I think I need something that senses when the saw motor circuit is working hard and limits the pressure available to the saw cylinder.
2006 WM LT28  1993 John Deere 5300
Husqvarna 562XP & 365 X-Torq

snowstorm

Quote from: lopet on November 15, 2015, 07:21:06 PM
Do a search on a sequence valve , which blockbuster uses on their processors.  They have probably almost 30 years experience and seem to know what they're doing .
is this valve for an open center system or closed?? his piston pump will be closed

snowstorm

Quote from: mjeselskis on November 15, 2015, 06:20:45 PM
Snowstorm, you've got my attention. Maybe my simple plan has a flaw. The variable displacement pump is from the hydrostatic drive. I plan to move the lever that actuate the swash plate with a linkage fed off the bar movement. That way the saws at full speed once it leaves its park position. The movement of the bar will be controlled with a simple spool valve and  to way cylinder. Are you suggesting that the movement of the saw bar is controlled based on the pressure from the variable displacement pump based on load? This seems like a good solution but I haven't figured out how to do that yet. Is it some sort of pressure compensated spool valve to feed into the saw cylinder?
i wrote a great long reply.guess it got lost is 

mjeselskis

To avoid completely hijacking bigblue's thread....

Will a 22hp engine have enough power to run a buzzsaw? I've used a buzz saw on a 3pt hitch behind a 28hp tractor and it had a hard time with anything over 6".  That one had a thin blade so not much inertia.
2006 WM LT28  1993 John Deere 5300
Husqvarna 562XP & 365 X-Torq

bigblue12v

Quote from: mjeselskis on November 16, 2015, 07:04:13 AM
To avoid completely hijacking bigblue's thread....

Will a 22hp engine have enough power to run a buzzsaw? I've used a buzz saw on a 3pt hitch behind a 28hp tractor and it had a hard time with anything over 6".  That one had a thin blade so not much inertia.
I'm not sure but I think so? I know a lot of it has to do with the speed and tooth arrangement. Here's one, his saw is belt driven directly from the engine which is only a 15hp gas engine. Homemade Firewood Processor 2815 Final: https://youtu.be/qOvV1jrWdsY My engine has easily twice the torque of that thing. He's not cutting anything real big with it though. Maybe it won't work as well as I'm wanting. I just don't like the idea of messing with a chain the buzz saw has so many more advantages so much less maintenance. Maybe I should give up and go chain saw so I know it'll work like I want.

I'm debating keeping it simple and mounting the feed trough to the pushing block so it advances the log as it splits. There's a few small drawbacks to this. But it's less moving parts less hydraulic power needed. It forces you to wait until splitters retracted before starting the next cut though. Returning the splitter doesn't take much power. There again in the time you return the splitter, you're advancing the log and clamping it anyway. With the splitter advancing the log, it's already clamped and in position when the splitter is returned. The saw can be running and starting toward the log as the splitter is returning to it's retracted position. There's so much precision timing science to these things. We're tempted to use as high flow pumps as possible for the splitter but in reality maybe we would be better off using the 22gpm instead of 28 and that saved power would allow us to start the next cycle while splitter is moving, whereas with 28gpm splitter perhaps it consumes just enough power that you can't run multiple functions at once. It's really tough to pull off a highly efficient processor build. I've been mulling it over for months and months.
Lots of junk not enough time.. full time mechanic part time logger, firewood junkie, outside boiler owner, meat smoker enthusiast, fabricator, dad, husband

North River Energy

^
^My portable buzz saw uses a 30" 60 tooth .250 kerf blade.  The 16hp B&S will drive that through most species @ 8-10", but that diameter gets a little unwieldy, so it's not an all day prospect.
It's direct belt drive (3groove sheave), with 'plain steel' teeth.

My processor uses a similar 30" 40tooth brazed carbide blade.  2.2litre diesel engine, probably 60 hp, driving 15gpm, 28gpm and 40 gpm pumps.  The arbor is belt driven by way of an large hydraulic motor, with a maximum cut diameter of 13".  There is a lot more power loss on the processor on account of the hydraulic drive, and the part where it has not yet been 'optimized'. 
Which is another way of saying that as a homebuilt, you may hit the target on the first shot, but the bullseye takes a little more doing.

At present, it's a legitimate 1cd/machine hour @ roughly 1gph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n24MWzFJuoQ

By ear, chip, watch, and fuel gauge, the brazed carbide appears to consume more hp than the 'plain steel' of identical tooth count.  However, you can cut through a lot of filthy wood before they need any sharpening.  Worth every one of the $325 dollars spent per.
Not to sound disparaging, but building a processor that won't run simultaneous functions is, in the truest sense of the phrase, a waste of time.

North River Energy


bigblue12v

North river, your processor is very impressive! Extremely smooth machine, did you build it? I love it! And yes I mostly agree on the waste of time thing. It's extremely difficult to engineer it properly to optimize the productivity of everything. It seems that there's a point where perhaps due to the size of the machine, you maybe more efficient with a fast saw and fast splitter that can't be ran simultaneously than with the same engine running both very poorly at the same time. Obviously the correct answer to high productivity is high power but I am not in need of nor in a position to build a machine that can run 1+ cord an hour. If I can get 2/3 cord an hour I'd be pretty happy. Removing the manual labor from the equation is worth some good productivity. Also the ability to work after dark would be a plus for me. I will not run a chainsaw after dark but a processor would be safe enough for me to continue operations after dark as my body is not close to the saw or splitter to where I'm worried about an accident.
Lots of junk not enough time.. full time mechanic part time logger, firewood junkie, outside boiler owner, meat smoker enthusiast, fabricator, dad, husband

lopet

Quote from: bigblue12v on November 16, 2015, 07:48:57 AM

I'm debating keeping it simple and mounting the feed trough to the pushing block so it advances the log as it splits. There's a few small drawbacks to this. But it's less moving parts less hydraulic power needed. It forces you to wait until splitters retracted before starting the next cut though. Returning the splitter doesn't take much power. There again in the time you return the splitter, you're advancing the log and clamping it anyway. With the splitter advancing the log, it's already clamped and in position when the splitter is returned. The saw can be running and starting toward the log as the splitter is returning to it's retracted position. There's so much precision timing science to these things. We're tempted to use as high flow pumps as possible for the splitter but in reality maybe we would be better off using the 22gpm instead of 28 and that saved power would allow us to start the next cycle while splitter is moving, whereas with 28gpm splitter perhaps it consumes just enough power that you can't run multiple functions at once. It's really tough to pull off a highly efficient processor build. I've been mulling it over for months and months.

I like your ideas, just thinking you're asking for a little much of that 22 hp engine. Even the splitter ram retracting is taking up power, which you gonna miss on your other functions.
I have a 65 hp  perkins diesel on mine, running two pumps, which I am not sure about the gpm.  When I have a good chain on it and apply all the pressure which it is set for, the engine bogs down during cutting, but it cuts. If you know what i mean.  Just to give you a idea.
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

North River Energy

Thanks BB12V. I did build it, though not entirely from scratch. It gets a little faster every year.

I believe you're overstating the difficulty associated with building an effective machine.  I'm not all that bright, and still managed to do it.

Bear in mind that many 'turn-key' machines, especially those at the 'cheaper' end of the market, are compromises driven largely by price point and market expectation.  When you build your own out of refurbished materials, you can pick and choose the components to best match the work you want to do at your pace.

1cd/hr is respectable but not exactly blazing.  Anything less than that and you're probably better off building a faster splitter and maximizing the rest of your material handling array. Similarly, all of the actions on a processor should be matched in terms of 'rate' so as not to be waiting on any one stage.
Weakest link in the chain, and all that.

With regard to the size of the power unit, so long as it delivers respectable production/gallon, what more can you ask?
I'd sooner run two smaller engines on an efficient machine than one motor on a machine with trade-offs built in.
Best thing you can do is get busy with it. Thinking and typing will only get you so far.

bigblue12v

I'm thinking you're right and I need to wait and collect a larger power plant lol. I've got an 18hp twin Briggs I might just upgrade the trailered splitter I have which is my go to unit. Lift crane and 5.5" cylinder. I use it a lot but it's slow. 5.5 Honda 11 GPM 2 stage. However it is the berries on large log rounds. I don't need to go balls out with my firewood operation right now. Thinking I need to just chill out and do what I can with it. Not consistent income, not even been selling a ton of it yet this year it's been such mild weather lately.
Lots of junk not enough time.. full time mechanic part time logger, firewood junkie, outside boiler owner, meat smoker enthusiast, fabricator, dad, husband

bigblue12v

However I'm quite anxious to see mjeselski's finished product, and will base my decision off of his outcome. But it'll likely be next winter before I could do it. I'm gonna try to get some medical bills paid this winter and then I'll have to find another mower if I'm gonna use the Jacobsen as a donor.
Lots of junk not enough time.. full time mechanic part time logger, firewood junkie, outside boiler owner, meat smoker enthusiast, fabricator, dad, husband

mjeselskis

Quote from: bigblue12v on November 15, 2015, 06:14:43 AM
Quote from: mjeselskis on November 14, 2015, 07:44:11 PM
The processor we're building is using basically the same donor. It was a Jacobsen reel mower with a 3 cyl Kubota, either 22 or 25hp. It has a 18gpm variable displacement pump with a tandem small gear pump and I am bolting a 28 gpm 2 stage on the other end in place of the original 13gpm single stage. The 28 will run the splitter, the 18gpm will run the saw, and the small gear pump will run the auxiliaries. (Infeed rolls, 4 way wedge adjustment, saw cylinder) I know I only have enough hp to either run the saw or the splitter, but not both and I'm fine with that.

Super interested in your build as we are going to be having very similar setups! I assume your wanting to run a chain saw though? If it's the D950 engine that's what mine is, they're 21.5hp technically. However I have my pump tweaked so to say 22hp is probably honest lol
Yes I won't necessarily be able to cut while splitting but hopefully I can cut while the splitter is retracting. The buzz saw will have a lot of flywheel power so I think it's doable. Right now I'm just browsing around looking for a blade all I can find new that's affordable is Chinese and I'm not really interested in that. Do you have a build thread going for yours? Would love to keep up on yours. Hurry and get it done so I have a baseline to go off of lol

I think mine is a D1105, but I'll have to look next time I'm at the garage
2006 WM LT28  1993 John Deere 5300
Husqvarna 562XP & 365 X-Torq

North River Energy

QuoteI'm thinking you're right and I need to wait and collect a larger power plant lol. I've got an 18hp twin Briggs I might just upgrade the trailered splitter I have which is my go to unit. Lift crane and 5.5" cylinder. I use it a lot but it's slow. 5.5 Honda 11 GPM 2 stage.
You've got a few easy options if you want to gain production without great expense or effort.

Your 5.5Honda will easily drive a 13-14gpm two-stage pump.  Your 18 will probably drive a 20+ without difficulty. You could upgrade the pump and/or motor on your big splitter, or you could build a 'lighter' faster splitter for the smaller stock/re-splits, and keep the big rig for the big meat. Add an auto-cycle valve to either and you can get significant work done in time to do something else with your day.
Aerial bucket lifts are a good source for used cylinders with large diameter rods, though the ports are often undersized and need enlarging.
Most splitters are a bit like adjustable wrenches, in that they are a useful tool for many job, but rarely the best tool for a particular job.

bigblue12v

Yea I thought about putting the 18hp on the big splitter with a 22-28 GPM pump maybe auto cycle valve. Currently it has half inch lines and very small reservoir and no filter so I'd be constructing an entirely new hydraulic system. Which isn't the end of the world but I'd hafta sink a lot of money into it. Idk yet. This my first year selling firewood on the side so we'll see how it goes, then go from there I guess.
Lots of junk not enough time.. full time mechanic part time logger, firewood junkie, outside boiler owner, meat smoker enthusiast, fabricator, dad, husband

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