Yet another mill build...but a band slabber

[bkaimwood]

Wheels are turning to build another mill...I need something to cut wide slabs...would be happy with a4 foot between the guides, but going bigger...but not all out...going to economically prove theory... I get alot of big logs that would make great slabs, and I'm tired of trimming them down to boards, losing 2/3 of their value...I've successfully built one already, and swore I'd never do it again, but here goes... Preliminary plans have me using a WM 196" blade .045" 1 1/2", cooks guides, 19" steel bandwheels with belts...preliminary calculations put my max width between the guides at close to 60"... As for power, we'll see, but it will be light, probably close to 20 hp...weak, I know, for something like this, but remember, its an economy build in search of precision and accuracy, not speed and production... It's to deal with and make something special of those 1 in 10 logs I get....I know lower hp, and wide cuts equals more blade heating, so a liberal lube system is in the plan, mostly in the form of blade flooding... Any past experiences or input would be appreciated... It may be awhile between updates, but hopefully, they will come...I'm hoping to make it lightweight enough to possiby be portable, maybe leveling independent tracks on site. Like a CSM, kind of...sounds sketchy, but I'm looking to slab these logs, don't need the precision to make stickers...but do need the precision to slab 12 foot logs FLAT, within 1/8"... Thanks for listening...!!!

[Ox]

Whew - you're a better man than me.  I'll never build another mill.  Ever.  I'd buy one before I'd build one.  Did I get satisfaction?  Sure!  Was it worth the 2.5 months of time and aggravation?  Nope.  I'm sure if you built the same style over and over again it would get easier every time.  I wish you luck.  I would offer this one suggestion:  it would be good for you to add a power feed on this slabber.  I'd go with a hand crank of some sort for control and cost effectiveness.  My widest cuts at around 30" had my mill shucking a little at the taller height settings because I couldn't finesse the feed by pushing by hand.

[Kingmt]

Sounds nice. I'm interested in watching & possibly coping. I do some slabbing because that is the only way I can handle them. Building it to be assembled on site sounds key for what your wanting to do. I'd consider something that would be easy to handle if you have to set it up to use going up & down hill. Power feed doesn't mean anything to me going on level ground but having to hold it back would be important.

[bkaimwood]

Thanks for the input fellas...not worried about power feed yet, but the hand crank idea is the way I would go...my main mental heardles right now are...first, can I get that wide of a spread between guides on 20" or so belted steel wheels, achieving the higher tension likely needed for this application, without the band going crazy? I'll get back to that...second, can it be done with a band only 1 1/4" wide, 1 1/2" max, hoping to stay .045" on either, not going to a .055"... Going to a .055" robs more juice, and likes bigger diameter wheels...now, back to the tension...my home made mill uses 26" car tires, and runs a 16', 1 1/2", .055 blade...28" between the guides...with alot of playing, moving the guides farther apart, I've gotten to 30-32"...it was hairy, and I got too much deflection over knots, creating unacceptable waves...I keep increasing the tension, knowing what will eventually happen... It will get mad, and track CRAZY, either blowing off the front, or jumping the guides and blowing off the back..I don't know if you can get that wide on tires, and still maintain your sanity, as tracking issues are always amplified the wider you go, due to the demand for more tension... Seems every home made band mill issue you read about hear, or close to it, are essentially tracking issues, whether it be wheels or guides...everything done so far has been done on paper...keep the input coming guys, I appreciate it!!!

[Den-Den]

I will be watching this thread, likely to be some good information in this one.
My home built mill uses tires and 1-1/2" blades; I have made a few 36" wide cuts but keeping those flat requires an almost new blade.  This is approaching the max on my mill, way short of what you are wanting to do.  Maintaining a steady feed rate at those widths is a problem for me (manual push).
If my math is right, using tires does not limit the band tension if the tires have a little crown and have enough pressure to keep the crown with the blade tight.  I know that a small amount of flex in the frame and axles will limit the tension regardless of what the wheels are made of.

[Ox]

I'm starting to think that you'll be needing the thicker, stiffer blades and larger, more solid band wheels.  I know this increases the cost quite a bit but I can see the tires and a thinner blade wandering all over the place at that kind of distance between the guides.  Have you considered a chainsaw type mill?  There would be no wandering cuts with this type of slabber.  It seems that everything in life has advantages and disadvantages and it's up to the individual to decide what he/she is willing to accept as trade offs.

[bkaimwood]

Yeah, thought about a CSM, but only briefly... I'm WAY too old for that... I may end up downsizing to 4 foot or so...

[Hilltop366]

Perhaps look at a Lucas dedicated slabber for ideas for using a bar and chain, vertical shaft engines can usually be had rather inexpensive from lawn tractors.

Good luck on the build!

[Ox]

I was thinking a bandmill type setup with the frame and carriage but with a slabber chain bar instead of a band.  Vertical shaft engine with a harvester sprocket and a long bar and off you go.  It'll be slower but somewhat smoother and no wavy cuts.  It wouldn't be hard to run with a hand crank system.  It may be the simplest and less aggravating way to go.

[bkaimwood]

Thanks fellas...ox, my first consideration was such a setup...I was slight turned off from it for 2 reasons...first, nearly any 4 stroke or diesel engine would need to be run through a differential of some sort, two multiply speed by a minimum of 3-4 times to get close to a chainsaws speed...second, I've read quite a bit about how long chains last between sharpening on wide slab cuts (not long at all), so frequent down time, sharpening, chains in stock, changing chains, etc...not to mention kerf loss... ??

[Kingmt]

If your band can drift then that would be worse than kerf lose.

[Hilltop366]

Not much if any shaft speed increase required so no gear box needed, just belts to transfer from engine to sprocket shaft, using a harvester drive sprocket (much larger than a chainsaw sprocket) will increase your chain speed. Built right chain swaps could be pretty quick.

[customsawyer]

Back when I had a LT40 with 19" wheels I ran the .055 blades all the time and didn't have much problem with blades breaking. I would plan on the 60" cut and use .055 blades.

[bkaimwood]

Hilltop366...interesting... Any idea how much rpm is ideal on a harvester sprocket? Or does anyone know? My stihl dealer said that due to the high rpm a chainsaw runs, this multiplication would be needed...maybe not as much as thought...and it could be done with pulleys, I suppose...I think it would be a good idea to used a double belt system to handle load of such a cut and avoid slippage...

[Hilltop366]

It all comes down to chain speed (feet per minute) determined by power available, width of cut, number of teeth in the cut i.e. type of chain (full comp, skip tooth etc.).

Not trying to persuade you to make one vrs. a band mill just throwing out some ideas.

One thing that tripped me up when building a vertical shaft CSM (16 hp with a 30" bar) years ago was thinking I needed chainsaw chain speed but I was not using chainsaw chain I was using harvester chain with a 50 thousand" on the rakers, I started no where near chainsaw chain speed but still ended up swapping out the driven sprocket to slow it down some more, full comp chain was too much for the single belt but skip tooth worked pretty good.

Take a look at some Lucas Mill dedicated slabber videos on youtube most look to be around 23 hp.

@Ianab might be able to tell you more about power requirements and chain speed. 

[bkaimwood]

Thanks, hilltop366... No persuasion needed, if I'm going to decide one way or another, the time is now...I've looked at the grandburg MK-III C-2, and although it's not cheap, and is labor intensive, I figure...buying a bar, chain, and some metal to start fabbing, and I'm already half way to one of those...maybe try one out...and use it to build on? Started looking at panther, but ran out of time...

[Kingmt]

I bought some aluminum the other day to build mine. I'm waiting on my bar & chain now. I had no idea there was patterns out there.

Do you have links to any that you liked?

[Hilltop366]

Your welcome, I'll include a link to a video of a diy mill that someone built that gives the general idea of what I am talking about.

Kind of like this only bigger with more power etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJUoER2xJYA

[jimdad07]

Yeah, thought about a CSM, but only briefly... I'm WAY too old for that... I may end up downsizing to 4 foot or so...

An Alaskan mill is pretty heavy with a big rig on it but what if you were to build a carriage style mill using a chainsaw?  There would be no tracking issues, power head is easy to take on and off, ripping chain isn't too bad on the wallet, much less figuring in the design and build aspect, much less to go wrong as far as setup goes and you can get very accurate cuts out of a chainsaw.  As far as the power head you would have to go with something like a Squeel 880 or a Hooskie 3120.

[fishpharmer]

Bkaimwood, here is a pic of the bandmill I built that is 48" max between the adjustable blade guide rollers.  Hudson builds a bandmill that cuts wider than mine.  And Woodmizer has the WM1000, wide bandmill.  Slabbing with a bandmill can be done. 

[Magicman]

It also can make bobtail log dogs.   ;D

[bkaimwood]

Cute pup...not a bad looking slab either!!! May I ask the dimensions of the blade you r running?

[4x4American]

Subscribed.  Maybe larger bandwheels than 19" might help your 20hp engine, but what do I know I'm not an engineer!

[fishpharmer]

Cute pup...not a bad looking slab either!!! May I ask the dimensions of the blade you r running?

Thanks fellas, my golden retriever was always too smart to get bobbed.  :D. Blade length I cannot remember exactly, 21 feet sounds right.  I know the mill is ten feet wide outside the guards.  The tires are in the 30" range.  If you care to look back, most my early posts are about this mill and how ffer's helped me get her cutting right.  I think a CSM would be far easier to build.   ;D

[bkaimwood]

Thanks fishpharmer... I was curious as to thickness and width, too. I assume you are running .055" x 1 1/2"? As for links to my interests? Sorry, but I just Google stuff and see where it takes me...Google Peterson, panther, Lucas, or whatever, or just CSM, and prepare to be overwhelmed...I took a second look at my current home made I previously mentioned, looking to possibly modify for this purpose... It only has 46" between the uprights, so I'm limited to that, but it may be great for experimenting... I'm looking at some trailer tires to go down in wheel diameter to early 20's, from current 26"... Seems counterproductive, but it give me more clearance, and the ability to play with the guides a bit more...may have to shim the center hub to get true center though, so there's no wobble...still investigating...I have a 45" maple log I want to make nervous...

[fishpharmer]

Nope never ran anything but 1 1/4 and .045's.   The Cook's Supersharps worked best on that mill.  Awful on the lt40.

[bkaimwood]

Well, its been decided and official... I'm going to stick with my original plan, and go band sawmill style, wide...the process will begin today. I'm going to use some of the bones from my first and home made mill...step one will be getting the nearly 3k lb head/carriage assembly off the tracks, then burn all the welds off the structural steel that makes the tracks, to get the tracks off the trailer its on...shed some weight and simplify...I figured it will help get me on the right track quicker...toss the portability, and offer log pickup to saw large logs on site...the interest is mainly for my own logs, but always pays to keep the door open...pics coming soon...

[bkaimwood]

Just spent 20 minutes uploading pics and updating post with pics...I see none of its here? I've posted pics before...I'll try another time...

[beenthere]

There are three pics in your gallery dated today...

Do the "click here to add...." and when that window opens, click "My gallery" in the menu tab. Click the pic you want in your post and follow the directions below that enlarged pic. Click the "Preview" to verify it is what you want, before clicking "Post". 

[bkaimwood]

before...

  

  

 

[Ox]

Overbuilt is good.  Me likey.  This should be an interesting build.

[bkaimwood]

Yeah, I tend to overbuild...the head/carriage assembly wasn't supposed to end up being close to 3k lbs...but with a 38 hp Isuzu diesel, and 3/8 thick 4x6 tube, that's how it ended up...I'm toying with the idea of a cantilever design... The thought of cutting all the bunks, and the head in half to widen is not a thought I'm fond of...thinking I can leave both alone, and have a 6 foot arm hanging off the side, sawing a log next to it...crazy, silly...yes...possible, atleast for trial, why not?

[Ox]

Heck, if it makes it easier for you, why not?  It would be something unusual which is always fun and it's something new to try which makes the build go quicker, at least it does for me.

[bkaimwood]

After.....
It will be a long time till I get back on this, trying to get the most important stuff before the snow flies....not enough hours in a day...

    

 

[beenthere]

So what is the story behind the two pics posted?

Or do we just imagine what is going on, and has something to do with snow flying?  :D

[bkaimwood]

So what is the story behind the two pics posted?

Or do we just imagine what is going on, and has something to do with snow flying?  :D

Your either silly, don't see the before and after pics, or don't think my progress is worth showing :D :D :D
First two pics a few posts ago showed my monstrosity together, track all welded to trailer, and so on...
The last pics showed all the track burned off the trailer after the head assembly was lifted off courtesy of Clark circa 1967...the hydraulic log clamps, auxiliary hydro motor, and everything is removed from trailer. trailer is back to just being a trailer, sawhead is now ready for potential design influence...

[bkaimwood]

Maybe its a bit of all those things, beenthere ;D That's a lot of progress for an army of one when there's not enough hours in the day. The snow flying directly relates to other stuff of higher importance...like getting that open barn finished or at least closed in better, getting log piles and firewood organized, general fall cleanup and such things....I could go on

[Ox]

Keep on keeping on, buddy!  I know what it's like fighting with an army of one when you need about 4 guys.  Luckily this year winter is being a bit nice to us so far.

[Kbeitz]

What part of Pa are you in...
Might like to come and check your saw out...

[bkaimwood]

Kbeitz, we are close to 5 hrs apart... Pocono region

[Kbeitz]

Kbeitz, we are close to 5 hrs apart... Pocono region

I'm often in the Bangor regon.

[bkaimwood]

Kbeitz, we are close to 5 hrs apart... Pocono region

I'm often in the Bangor regon.

I hardly know her...but I'm 30-45 minutes from...

[bkaimwood]

Well, I forgot to post this before the teardown... I spent a day, and made some adjustments to give my existing setup a chance...so I put this lil fella on there to try...walnut, about 34" or so...I got 3 slabs down and quit... Although I did make the cuts, it was after launching 3 blades, one into pieces...waves that were unacceptable, slabs that are salvageable...I'm sorry, I decided not to include slab pics out of respect for WDH's eyes...
I'm too busy and am dreaming if I think I can find the time to get this new wide slab bandmill going, so against my judgement and religion, I'm going csm...I've picked up a 72" bd titanium harvester bar and 100' role of .404 10 degree ripping chain...I think this will start as a plain manual csm to get going, with aux oiler, then maybe graduate onto my old carriage with assisted feed if I like the results. I think I'll start powering it with the 880 to get started...and then may graduate to a harvester sprocket in the end on the carriage, using the existing Isuzu 38hp diesel...but we'll see, and start slow...thanks for all the help so far...

  

 

[Percy]

Very ambitious project. Cool. I like it....Perhaps you might try running huge set with whatever blades you have left before scrapping the idea..If its all aligned proper(im sure it is) you could try 40 thou set or even a tad more. Hp might come into play but what the heck...wortha try  doncha think??? Good luck with this...

[bkaimwood]

Good thought, Percy, I appreciate the input. I don't have a setter. Unfortunately, I already have this rig mostly apart, too...The biggest problem I've had was getting enough of the insane tension I need to keep this 1 1/2x .055 band under control...I think I've tried enough to say to go further, I need to do some tire change, best idea I suppose is actually going to a balanced, designed for purpose, 20" or bigger wheel. But she's retired for now, and we are moving on...

[Magicman]

I can't tell from the pictures what you are doing/using for blade guides??   

[bkaimwood]

I can't tell from the pictures what you are doing/using for blade guides??   

That's a good thing, MM, as it would hurt your eyes!!! :D :D :D The original guides were mounted at the bottom, where they should be, just inside the tires, and worked great...what is seen there, is a very bad idea in experimenting...where I threw together a few quickly adjustable guides to tinker around for a couple hours on a nice day when I needed to take a break from some other things. It was an obvious failure on many levels and never should have been attempted. It was one of those, "lets see what happens if we do this!!!"

[thecfarm]

Let's see what happens. Ayup,I've tried that a few times.  ;D
Good luck to ya!!

[Magicman]

You must have some downward pressure with the guides so that they control the blade, not the bandwheels.  Most folks recommend ¼" of downward deflection.

[bkaimwood]

You must have some downward pressure with the guides so that they control the blade, not the bandwheels.  Most folks recommend ¼" of downward deflection.

Yup...ran the mill for a year or so as such when they were where they were supposed to be, always worked great, ole reliable always sawed true and predictable....the move to the top was just an experiment to gain room down below, but as suspected, failed... :'(   also ran down pressure up top...

[Ox]

I do the whole "let's try this and see what happens" thing a lot myself.  This is how inventions are discovered.  Besides, if you never try anything new, how to you expect to progress?  If nobody ever tried anything new we'd all still be living like animals! 

I personally like your machinery.  Don't be too hard on yourself - it's unfounded.  One of my favorite sayings:  Function first, pretty later.

[bkaimwood]

Thanks OX...she has always been ugly, but I am proud to say that I've gotten plenty of compliments on the quality of the product she's produced. It always seemed to be within 1/16" accuracy out 12+ foot on even wider slabs...

[Ox]

Well, that's great!  Just proves the point that pretty paint don't make a mill cut straight.

Be very proud of your homemade stuff.  After all, what percentage of people on earth can say they've built their own sawmill?  Way less than 1%, I'll bet.  So, in this way of thinking, Presto!  You're now part of the 1 percenters, the elites!  ;D