Band mill engine sizing.

[Jaket123]

Hey guys I'm new and currently quoting parts and running some numbers for my first sawmill build. I've already decided to go with the Linn lumber model 1900 36" saw head and am going crank feed and crank raise lower for now. But I've been debating on engine choice. I saw mostly cedar, white oak, red oak, walnut, and poplar. I just can't decide if the 16 hp side shaft (1" shaft 16hp 21tq and electric start $300) is enough power or if I should go ahead and spend the extra for the 20hp( 1" shaft 20hp 32.6tq electric start $800). I plan to add electric power feed and electric up and down in the future. Also plan on adding a second motor to drive a hyd pump to drive a log loader, log clamp and log turner. Thanks for any input!

Jake

[Magicman]

Happy Birthday Jake.  I admire anyone that does a sawmill build.  I have never heard of anyone replace an engine with a smaller one, but there are many that have replaced smaller engines with larger ones.   ;D

[bandmiller2]

Jake, everyone will tell you to chase the ponies and go for the bigun. Theirs a big price difference, I would rather see you with the smaller engine and spend the money on hydraulics power feed and up and down. Jury rigged low voltage electrics are troublesome, you would need an extra alternator, might as well be a small hyd. pump. If your mill will be stationary consider all 220v electric. A 7 1/2 or 10 hp electric will equal the engines your thinking of. Spend some time engineering and read the many posts here on home builts. Remember you will get out what you put in. Frank C.

[Kingmt]

I have a 7HP on  HF mill but considering going bigger. I also can only cut a 20" board.

[Kbeitz]

Running a 13hp Honda and have yet to run out of power.

[thecfarm]

I vote for the 20,but it's not coming out of my wallet either.  ;D  I have 20 on mine. I always push the long mill. I have a mill that can cut 20 foot logs. I never have,but it gives me 4 feet more to put a 16 foot log on instead of about 6 inches. It allows me to get the head out of the way to get lumber off the mill. It's so much easier,I never thought of this until I started to use it. But there again,it's not coming out of my wallet. BUT the 20hp,extended track and the no flex track did add about $2000 to the price of the sawmill. It was all worth it. And than some.

[Jaket123]

Thanks magicman, and yes I would agree with u there. I deal with hydraulics daily as I work in plastic injection molding and work with star, Kawasaki, and fanuc robots daily so as far as making it, and the control system and understand of hydraulics and flow controls ect is no big deal. My only issue with running up/down hydraulics and hyd feed is how to run it from my portable trailer base to the moving Sawhead. At work we use what we "cat track" the keeps all cables and lines all need and in place as the moveable part moves along its axis (ie carriage moving back and forth on the trailer. Anyone have photos of how someone else accomplished this?

I agree electronics can be a pain like in the jap crap I work on daily. So I'm totally open to having hydraulic feed and up/down if I could do so reasonably.

As for the motor... I'm just worried about one day I'm sure I'm going to burry the saw to the full 36" cut into a big ole white oak and just not have the power needed.

I will more than likely go ahead with the 20hp for the sawhead and run another 8-10hp motor on the trailer to run a 5gpm 2000 psi pump to power the log loader, clamp and turner... And possibly use it to power the feed and up down if we can come up with a "nice" solution for for running the lines from the base to the carriage. Thanks for all the input guys keep it cumin!

Jake

[Jaket123]

Thecfarm I agree with you on the track. Mine will be on a trailer and portable. But it will have at least a 20' track and be built very heavy to prevent flexing of track and to prevent wavy cuts!

Jake

[Den-Den]

The smaller engine should be OK for hobby use IF the band speed is not too fast.  Optimizing band speed, pulley sizes and belts is important for smaller engines, recommend that you design some flexibility into the power train so that you can experiment with rpm ratio without major expense.  If the engine pulley is initially on the small size (to save a few dollars) then you cannot try a smaller one without belt slipping problems; that would force you to purchase a second large pulley for bigger $$.
Your plan to make it simple at first and upgrade later is good, considering how these upgrades will attach and work during the initial design will save you some money.
I found that power up/down was more important than power feed for my mill

[Jaket123]

Technically yes it's a hobby mill. But I'm a firm believer in over building. I wana build "A" mill not mills... That's y I chose the 36" Linn design sawhead. And that's why I'm leaning toward the 20hp motor. I may even use linns cent. Clutch he sells. Because it's the clutch and driven wheel he uses on his mills so it should be a good combo. I know all the hydro feed and raise and log loader, log clamp and turner may be a lil overkill for a hobby mill. But I like to built things to an industrial capacity and grade just to know I have the mill that could last a lifetime.

Jake

[Ljohnsaw]

Well, I started with a 2.5hp electric and upgraded to a 7hp gas I had laying around.  That worked, but really slowed down cutting on the big stuff.  So I was heading down to a 13hp as a min.  Found a used 18hp twin and went with that.  Right now, a little belt slip is my only problem.  Rule of thumb:  Take the size you think you need, add 10%, double it and tack on 15% :D

[Philngruvy]

Jake, I have the WM LT15 with the 18 hp Kohler.  It does a great job on hemlock and poplar, but when I am cutting oak, it bogs down more than I like.  I don't know if 20 hp would make a big difference but then the the 36" saw head will allow you to put a larger log on the mill than I can with the LT 15 which could cause issues.

[Kingmt]

However big you build it there will still be a time it is to small.

[Jaket123]

John I like your way of thinking lol I know several Linn based mills are running 24-26hp engines I just don't wana drop that kind of cash on one right now. I can get the 20hp for $800 shipped with 3year warranty and that's about all I have budgeted for a motor. Would loveeeeee to find a 24-26 uses local. But no luck. Most side shaft engines around here are 3-10hp no big ones really.

And yes I know kingmt big is never big enough. I'm into side by sides I own a canam so I know all about that lol never ending cycle

Jake

[Kbeitz]

Search the Craiges list for used garden tractors.
Lots of older sears had 18-20 hp Onans in them.
A tractor with out the deck can be had cheap.

[Jaket123]

Thanks kbeitz an other to look for good side shaft motors?

[ncsawyer]

I tend to agree that bigger is better when it comes to engines.  That's why I went with the largest engine option on my last mill.  I have also sawed hundreds of thousands of BDFT on a LT40 manual with the original 18hp Briggs, and it always did the job no matter how big the logs were.  Even if they were 38" diameter white oak.  Of course it wasn't nearly as fast as my new diesel mill but it got the job done, and on average (20" and under) pine, that motor would easily cut over 2,000bdft per day on that mill.

[bandmiller2]

Jake its always been the big bug-a-boo to get power and hydraulics from the moving carriage to the bed for clamps and loading. As you figured a separate power unit is easiest otherwise its that expensive track or festooning. The mill I built utilizes a hyd. pump driven from the motor on the carriage and a separate motor and pump for the clamp/log turner on the base. The carriage pump supplies head up and down and carriage travel. Higher HP gives you a little more speed. Frank C.

[garre1tt]

I have been very happy with my linn 190A.  I did upgrade the engine from the 14 to the 18hp brigs.  Max width of cut says 26" but that would be with two cut edges.
23" is safer.  Hate to tell you but it is important the max width for the 1900 is 30".  the max log size is 36".  Believe that is more to do with how high the head will raise.

Anyway, I have been very happy with the 18 hp brigs.

[kelLOGg]

Are you trying have the capability to cut 36" wide boards? That's a tall order. I have a 16HP Kohler and can cut a 32" LOG but only a 25" board out of it. I have cut white oak that size and it is slow. If you really know that is what you must be able to cut then go for 20.
Bob

[Ljohnsaw]

Search the Craiges list for used garden tractors.
Lots of older sears had 18-20 hp Onans in them.
A tractor with out the deck can be had cheap.

That's what I did for my engine.  I forget how much - $160? and it had an electric clutch.  So far it's working great.

[Jaket123]

Thanks frank c that's the info I have been looking for. As far as my mill I wana have a set up to throw it on the mill and cut it... If it fits I could mill it? That's what I want

[dustyhat]

20 hp , should make you happy with your first build. but motors are like garages you will always wish you would have went bigger :laugh:

[Magicman]

And then when you get the engine size that you need, you will realize that you really need a Diesel.   ;D

[bkaimwood]

You will never regret the larger engine, but will much more likely regret the smaller one...swing as much as you can...especially on larger purchases as such..be more frugal on small, less impacting purchases?

[dgdrls]

I think you know what you really want ;)

best

Dan

[pineywoods]

Never heard of anyone complaining about too much power, but it's real easy to have too much weight. Especially when doing an engine swap. Even with new builds, too much weight will make the mill top heavy..

[JB Griffin]

I started out with a 25hp kohler on my first mill, which was woefully under powered due to poor design(my friend lt 28 with the same motor could cut circles around mine) and had a hyd pump on it. Now I have a 33hp Kubota and can out cut most if not any bandmill in my area.  Next stop 50+hp ;D

[redprospector]

Well, I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents.
I started out running an LT30 manual with a 14 hp. Kohler, I upgraded that to a used 16 hp. Briggs. From there I got a Silvasaw with a 20 hp. Kohler. None of these were enough to satisfy my insatiable appetite for sawing big gnarly Douglas Fir logs. In 97 I started building my own mill. I decided that hydraulic up and down, and hydraulic feed were a must. When choosing an engine I wanted something that would have plenty of power, and be easy to work on. I settled on a 1600cc Volkswagen engine out of a 73 Bug. How much simpler can you get? I mean you can rebuild one on the side of the highway with a pair of vice grips, channel locks, a crescent, and 2 screwdrivers...oh yeah, you'll need a pocket knife and a couple of Copenhagen lids too.  :D I found my engine for about $400, put another $300 in it, and for $700 bucks plus a 50 mile trip I had about 53 rompin', stompin', log cuttin' horse power. There is no replacement for displacement. Now I find myself needing hydraulics on the bed real bad. But that's another project. 

[deadfall]

I gotta know, were the Copenhagen lids for adjusting the valves?

[Ga Mtn Man]

...My only issue with running up/down hydraulics and hyd feed is how to run it from my portable trailer base to the moving Sawhead. At work we use what we "cat track" the keeps all cables and lines all need and in place as the moveable part moves along its axis (ie carriage moving back and forth on the trailer. Anyone have photos of how someone else accomplished this?

Have a look at the TimberKing mills and the Cook's AC-36.  Should be some good ideas there.

[ladylake]

Well, I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents.
I started out running an LT30 manual with a 14 hp. Kohler, I upgraded that to a used 16 hp. Briggs. From there I got a Silvasaw with a 20 hp. Kohler. None of these were enough to satisfy my insatiable appetite for sawing big gnarly Douglas Fir logs. In 97 I started building my own mill. I decided that hydraulic up and down, and hydraulic feed were a must. When choosing an engine I wanted something that would have plenty of power, and be easy to work on. I settled on a 1600cc Volkswagen engine out of a 73 Bug. How much simpler can you get? I mean you can rebuild one on the side of the highway with a pair of vice grips, channel locks, a crescent, and 2 screwdrivers...oh yeah, you'll need a pocket knife and a couple of Copenhagen lids too.  :D I found my engine for about $400, put another $300 in it, and for $700 bucks plus a 50 mile trip I had about 53 rompin', stompin', log cuttin' horse power. There is no replacement for displacement. Now I find myself needing hydraulics on the bed real bad. But that's another project.

In over 11000 hours my TK B20 with a 6hp gas running the hydraulics on the bed has worked great, I much rather have that than a energy track or electric over hydraulics.  I did replace the motor at 6000 hours for $200, I run it about half throttle and it's not hard on the motor.   I like that VW motor, how much does it weigh? Steve

[pineywoods]

Yeah, I thought about the VW motor when the time came for a new power plant. Junked bugs are getting scarce around here. One weakness is the rear main bearing ( ok, it's the front main in the bug). I was concerned about the side loads with a belt drive. That all went out the window when I came across a 25 hp liquid cooled kawasaki V twin at a good price...

[Magicman]

At one time Cooks had a VW Diesel option.

[Ljohnsaw]

At one time Cooks had a VW Diesel option.

And did it cheat when it knew it was being smog tested   Sorry, couldn't resist :D

[redprospector]

I gotta know, were the Copenhagen lids for adjusting the valves?

Yep. Cut the lip off with the pocket knife and it'll get you close enough on the valves, and the points to get you in.  ;D

[redprospector]

In over 11000 hours my TK B20 with a 6hp gas running the hydraulics on the bed has worked great, I much rather have that than a energy track or electric over hydraulics.  I did replace the motor at 6000 hours for $200, I run it about half throttle and it's not hard on the motor.   I like that VW motor, how much does it weigh? Steve

Not sure exactly what it weighs, but I'm pretty sure it's heavier now than it was in 97. When I built the mill I pulled the engine from the bug and put it in my truck by myself. I mounted it on the mill by myself too. The last time I had it off the mill I had to have a little help.  :D
I'm going to wind up with a separate hydraulic system like you're talking about. I plan on running an over head cable to carry the hoses for the head up and down, and the blade guide. But everything will be operated from the end of the mill.

[redprospector]

Yeah, I thought about the VW motor when the time came for a new power plant. Junked bugs are getting scarce around here. One weakness is the rear main bearing ( ok, it's the front main in the bug). I was concerned about the side loads with a belt drive. That all went out the window when I came across a 25 hp liquid cooled kawasaki V twin at a good price...

There's still lots of junked bugs out here, but the price is going up (like everything else). To get around the rear front main problem I just added a carrier bearing at the end of the shaft that I put on it. It's been working for a long time.  ;D

At one time Cooks had a VW Diesel option.

I bought an old fairway mower from the golf course for the 50 horse Mitsubishi diesel. I got it to replace the VW when it quit. But the Bug won't die.  ;)

[deadfall]

I gotta know, were the Copenhagen lids for adjusting the valves?

Yep. Cut the lip off with the pocket knife and it'll get you close enough on the valves, and the points to get you in.  ;D

Better so loose you can hear them, than so tight you can smell them.  (Old saying.)

[sandsawmill14]

i put a cable in the air on my b20 and did away with the cord reel. works good but if/when i have to repair it i will put a pantagraph on it. there should be some pics of it in my gallery
far as engine size the 30 hp electric on our s&w still isnt big enough :D

[beenthere]

sandsawmill
Would you sort through your pics and post the one you refer to in your post? tks

[sandsawmill14]

here is a pic

 

this one shows the cable and post i added but the head is at the wrong end of mill to see the multiconductor cable a used for the wiring. i just used the screw together cold shut chain links to slide on the cable, the wire just coils/uncoils as the head drags it back and forth. works good but doesnt look as neat as the pantagrph would
i can more pics and MAYBE a short video of it working if anyone wants me to just ask and i will start a thread so we dont hijack this one ;) :D

[redprospector]

here is a pic

 

this one shows the cable and post i added but the head is at the wrong end of mill to see the multiconductor cable a used for the wiring. i just used the screw together cold shut chain links to slide on the cable, the wire just coils/uncoils as the head drags it back and forth. works good but doesnt look as neat as the pantagrph would
i can more pics and MAYBE a short video of it working if anyone wants me to just ask and i will start a thread so we dont hijack this one ;) :D

Just ask? Ok, I'd like to see please.  :D

[sandsawmill14]

 :D :D :D  i just didnt want to hijack the thread  ;D got dr app in the morning but if all goes well i will get some pics tomorrow afternoon and a short video of head running back and forth. i have never posted a video but i will give it a try

[beenthere]

sandsaw
First put your video on YouTube and then put a link in your post to the video on YouTube.

[sandsawmill14]

i got the pics put in another thread called cable mod on timberking b20 ;D but cant figure out how to video with my new phone :(

[scrout]

I have an 18 HP twin on my Linn.  One belt, I would go two belts with any more HP.
Also, HF has a 22hp on sale for $700 right now.
Pick up a cheap winch for your carriage power, works pretty well.
Cranking for the sawhead height will get old REAL fast.  My acme rods are 5 turns per inch.
The Linn sawhead is a nice design, pretty beefy and easy to mod if you want.