Selling Hardwoods

[4x4American]

So, mainly I've just been doing pine, but recently, my buddy has been bringing me hardwood and I've been sawing on shares.  It has all been real clear stuff.  Not many people sell hardwoods that are rough sawn around here so I'm not sure what to get for a price per foot.  He brings me nice clear cherry, sugar maple, red/white oak, and have some black walnut coming in tonight.  I have been selling for $1.50/ft lately because I need to move the lumber.  The walnut I think is worth more than that.  Most times when people buy hardwood around here they are getting stuff that is kd s2s and the price is way different for me to gauge how to sell it rough cut and green.  It's looking like I might start getting into hardwoods and I want to be fair to both the customer and myself.  Once I get enough of a base I'm going to have to start buying logs and at that point, my $1.50/foot most likely ain't gonna work! Pine has been pretty easy to figure out, as there are many pine mills around here so I kinda figured out what the going rate is, what my bottom line is, etc etc. Please help me figure out this hardwood business!

[Sixacresand]

4x4, how much do you expect to pay per bf for hardwood logs?  The cost here is usually more to cover transportation and labor. 

[bkaimwood]

It's a tough deal, but I don't have to tell you that...its a buyers market right now...when I have a chance to move green lumber, and make some money, I'm all over it...unless its a specialty pice, special lumber, or valuable figure...gotta sit on that stuff to get what its premium worth is, unless time get too tough, then positive cash flow is king...selling hardwood lumber can be challenging, selling green hardwood lumber even harder...this is, like most things, regionally and market dependent. Dimensional or more common hardwood cuts are tougher yet, as they are, well, more common...your buyers market will likely be for those that have time to wait, and see the potential value in buying your green lumber, as reflected in your lower prices...where to price? I'd guess you'd have to somewhere about half of kd price.... Some places less than that, seldom more...you area will dictate this...there's lots of hardwood around me, and I have a tough time selling utility grade customer cut green hardwood lumber at close to softwood prices...the nice stuff everyone here wants dry...these things also vary widely, seasonally. But I'm relatively new as well, so getting the word out takes ALOT...all you can do is saw, and adjust your prices till you are moving stuff...and hopefully not in the red...

[woodworker9]

Every area is different, and it really depends on how much green rough sawn hardwood is available, as well as how many buyers you can reach out to.  One turns into 2, and two turns to 4, etc.....but that can take a really long time.

Earning my living with woodworking for 25 plus years, I used to always keep my eyes out for mills selling hardwood freshly cut.  I never minded investing as long as the price was right, because I had a wood storage shed that holds a lot of wood.  I can tell you that I was rare in my thinking.  Most woodworkers will not buy green lumber.  They want it dried, because they can't use it until it is, and most don't have the capability of storing it anywhere while it dries.

I never paid more than $2 a bf, and often, it was exactly what you're getting.  $1.50/bf.  There were a few mills around here that would rather keep the cash flow moving in a positive direction rather than stock piling inventory.  If you've got an ever growing pile of lumber laying around, you would be best, in my opinion, to keep moving it down the road.  This will help you build a customer base.  After a few years of this (or sooner), you may find it wise to invest in a kiln.  Added value to your customer means you can charge more.

Now that I've got my own sawmill, I've found that when I have lumber I want to sell that is excess to my personal business needs, having it dried and ready for use is critical to being able to sell it.  The guys who buy from me are woodworkers in the area that belong to the local woodworking club, as well as several guys who used to take woodworking classes in my shop (I used to teach classes on Saturday's).  They know I have a fully functional woodworking shop with equipment, so I can sell rough stock, or I can joint, plane, and dimension it for them, if they wish......all for an additional cost per bf.

Soooooo, my advice to you is that it's better, in the beginning, to sell for a little less and build your customer base.  Once you're able to offer a higher level of service above and beyond green lumber, you can start charging more.  Your customers will let you know how you're doing with your prices with their wallets.

[4x4American]

Thanks for all the advice guys I preciate it. 

[4x4American]

Kinda a little different, I have a guy who wants to buy bulk orders from me at wholesale price.  How much do you take off your retail price to figure wholesale?

[brianJ]

Are you looking just to move what you already have or will shortly get from your buddy?   Then figure how much time you got into that pile and figure from there.   

Are you trying to diversify into another niche than just pine?     If so then cost ofl logs plus time.   

Either way the arithmatic is easy it is the judgement thats tricky.    Judgement for what number to put on your time.   Judgement if this guy is reliable buyer and has the money.   Will he buy everything quality wise he says he will?    Will you two see and grade the boards the same way?

[4x4American]

I am looking to get into hardwoods, I just met with a guy yesterday who wants to buy various hardwoods from me, and I am working on getting a local pallet/blocking guy who's 10min down the road from me who seemed interested in buying pallet stock/cants and blocking from me.  We are going to have a meeting sometime in the next few weeks and hopefully can work out a deal.  I am also selling to hobby woodworkers.  Just today I sold all the maple and cherry lumber I've been sitting on.  The maple I sawed and sticker stacked a few months ago and the cherry I sawed last week with my cousin helping me.  He bought everything, so I got $1.10/ft for it, which we were both happy about.  It was for the most part FAS quality material and a little bit of 1 common.  He saw the load of walnut that I got delivered while he was here and wants me to give him a call when that's sawed and also when I saw more cherry.


The butt log of that walnut is 36" or so with just a little bit of rot in the pith.  It does have a big check going up the butt too, but I can work right around that. 

[dgdrls]

How are the ribs?

For pricing look to the other shops in your area that sell hardwood,
I looked at a retailer who pulls his lumber from Conn. he gets it dried and sells X/4 dimensions
Another local mill saws both hardwood and soft and he has a price list
on line. 
I sold all the hardwood I had stocked just a couple/few % lower than the local mill.
Retailer was a larger percent lower based on opinion of labor and cost to dry and plane.

Watch yourself with the Walnut, folks get funny with that stuff.  Had a mad rush here 2 years back
local fellow had a walnut grove on his village lot, (an anomaly for sure). Big logs, clear and straight the Amish purchased them all
Word was out, everyone was cutting walnut down that was crooked and useless and asking top$$ for the "logs".

FWIW around here the artisans want walnut in wide planks,  the craftsmen and weekend carpenters want nice clear 6/4 and 8/4 materials.

Dan

[Compensation]

Prices I've seen here
Poplar kiln dried $1
Oaks, hickory, maple, etc $1 sawn $1.50 dried
Cherry, walnut dried $2, $2.15, $2.50

I don't know if that will help you calculate your price but that's what I've seen around here. When I price my wood I usually go to lowes or menards and figure out their bdft price and charge that or a little less. But I also value my wood for my projects since I'm just a hobbyist.

(Afterthought)  what are you getting out of your pine? I've been sawing more of that lately.

[Dave Shepard]

re: wholesale, how much are we talking about? It would have to be a significant amount for me to consider a price break. Like truckload quantities.

[4x4American]

Dan, I think that the ribs have gotta be better by now, I can actually cough and sneeze and wonderful things like that now!  Collar bone 6 week since surgery checkup on monday, hopefully I can get outta the sling if everything looks ok.  I feel great!  Itching to get back to sawing!  Thanks for the advice on the walnut.  I am sawing these logs on shares for my friend.  I wish that I could slab it, the big one is huge I could get a pretty penny for wide walnut slabs.  Now that I think of it...I might just try and make some sort of jig for my chainsaw and make some nice wide, thick slabs. 


Thanks for the prices in your area, Compensation, it does help me.  What kinds of maple do you guys have in your area?  For pine my prices per foot change as I get into the bigger stuff.  I am getting .55/ft for things like 2x4s and 1x6s up to $1/ft for big, long timbers.   


Dave, I have a 20' long gooseneck trailer, and he will buy it by what I can fit on the trailer.  If he can keep me busy, that's more than I can make selling it retail, so that would be good enough for me to just be moving lumber.  Cash flow is what I'm looking for right now, and getting my name out there.  This guy has many contacts all throughout the industry that would really help me get on my feet.  How many mbf would you consider the minimum for wholesale prices for you?

[Compensation]

Red, sugar, and unfortunately silver. Our silver maple is of the firewood variety around here.

[Ron Wenrich]

I worked in commercial milling for 35 years, and we sold primarily to wholesalers.  We sold on volume, and we produced on volume.  Our business plan was not to cut anything on speculation.  We wanted to turn our dollars as quickly as we could.  Most times, before a log was rolled into the mill, there was a home for the lumber, the chips, and the sawdust.  We bought standing timber, separated out the firewood, pulpwood and veneer, and the rest went to the mill.  That's your competition in the wholesale field.

We had no expense in stacking, drying (even air drying), and waiting for customers to come around.  Small lot customers always cost money to service, which is why you have to charge more.  You will have extra labor in the stickering and drying of the wood.  You will also have a lot of money tied up, which has a service fee.  You will also lose some lumber to degrade after drying. All has to be factored into the price.

If you have a problem with selling low grade, then you should think about selling the low end stuff to the pallet plant.  Also, if there is a flooring plant close by, they'll take the lower grade stuff.  That will give you some cash flow and you can pull some of the better stuff for the local woodworkers. 

[drobertson]

No chance of getting a buck fifty for green 4/4 hear,  I would sell that every day of the week, up north seems to run higher it seems.  Our flooring buyers grade each board, and the avg. from what I'm hearing is 60 cents a bd'ft green,  this is for oak, so the other types, walnut, maple and such well, a hard call, get what you can,  it's worth more dried, and even surfaced, something to ponder on.

[JB Griffin]

Well me and drobertson are a long ways from ya but, 4/4, 5/4 are the common sizes here but we are eat up with commercial tie mills around here and the lumber usally goes for flooring.

round here 4/4 red oak avg $600 Mbf,
white oak $500Mbf
walnut $1250 -$1500Mbf,
Gum, Elm, sycamore, hackberry $250Mbf or less
cherry $400Mbf
Hickory $700Mbf

I think that if 8/4 or thicker hardwood lumber is not readily available you MIGHT be able get more for it(speculation again as Ron said :-\)
I don't like to saw anything without knowing where its going and what its going to bring(approx.) and know I've got somewhere to get rid of it.

[bkaimwood]

Yup, location is everything... By far more expensive up north...recently I had to pay .52c a bf for #1 red oak logs...at .60c a bf I'd be upside down before turning the key on the mill...

[JB Griffin]

Log price has a lot to do with what you need to get out of your lumber.
Down here tie logs go for...

#1(red,white oak, hickory- no knots)$400Mbf
#2 $380Mbf
2nd(gum, ash, elm, hackberry, sycamore, cottonwood) $320Mbf
#3(cant logs) $220

#1,2, and 2nd have to be 12" or bigger, #3 down to 9"

[Tom the Sawyer]

Doug,

In my opinion, you shouldn't be setting prices (wholesale or retail) until you know your cost to produce that lumber.  Pay yourself well, cover the cost and maintenance of your equipment, insurance, help, taxes, etc., and forget about 'free' logs.  You might be able to sell lumber from logs you got for free (and make a bit extra) but, unless you have a reliable supply of free, quality logs, you'll need to buy logs to meet your client's needs.

A regular buyer of your product is a real bonus, just don't sell yourself short or you'll both be unhappy.

[4x4American]

Thanks, Tom
I most definitely didn't tell anyone I got the logs for free!  In the WM seminar dvd, from my memory, one of the guys suggests that it costs $0.20/bdft to run the saw.  I am not sure exactly what my costs are but I have a decent idea.  I know my costs based on the actual money that goes out, but then there's that depreciation, wear and tare, my time sharpenig and setting blades, my time running the mill, time stacking and handling, tractor wear and tear, fuel, etc.  There is so many things that are hard to calculate.  I would like a closer idea, but I'm just not sure how to tackle it.

Thanks again, Doug

[4x4American]

What do you guys do about selling boards with the pith in it?  I sawed some cherry last night by light of pickup truck/tractor to sell this weekend, I just tried to get the most wide 4/4 boards, tried to get the pith in one board but didn't work out on a couple logs.  The guy who bought last time didn't seem to care and I told him up front that there was heart in some of the boards.  But he isn't always going to be the one buying boards from me.  I figure that the woodworker can cut out good stuff avoiding the pith from a wide board instead of me fiddling around trying to avoid it.  I don't know whether or not the big mills saw around it or not, unless they saw a cant and resaw into boards and avoid pith that way.  I could be dead wrong though what do you guys do?

[Dave Shepard]

When I cut cherry, I saw around a 4x4 or 6x6 and use it for blocking or a fence post. There is usually to much defect that close to the heart.

[4x4American]

Yea I hear ya.  The guy who is buying now doesn't seem to care cause he's making cabinets and he'll work right around it I guess but for future reference that's something to look into.  How long will cherry last in the ground as a fence post?

[Ron Wenrich]

Big mills saw on grade.  What you get for a board depends on the amount of defect in the board.  Pith can be cut out, and so can knots.  But, the more knots, the less usable wood.  What big mills do is saw around the defect, then send it out in a cant.  Exception to the rules may be in species like walnut where there isn't much defect all the way to the heart and the value is high.

If you're going for width, you're not necessarily going for grade.  Depends on log location from the tree.  You might get wide boards that are clear on the edges and loaded with defect in the heart area.  You end up with narrow clear boards when you rip it down.  But, the center could be viewed as low grade, and low value.  If you put it in one board, your board value would drop.  I would saw for the maximum amount of clear cuttings.  When that drops, then you turn and saw on another face.  Concentrate your defect into a cant and sell them to a pallet plant.

If you don't saw for grade and you let people sort through your lumber, they'll pick out the higher quality stuff and leave the lower quality behind.  You will find that a FAS or Select can get more money per bd ft than a 1 or 2 Com, even from local woodworkers.  Less defect means more recoverable wood and less work. 

If you want more info about hardwood lumber grades, you can get a copy of the NHLA grade book here:  http://www.nhla.com/rulesbook   If you have questions, just ask.

[Magicman]

Depends upon the use.  I have turned pith up and out to accent it rather than to conceal or hide.  Your buyer knows what he wants.  Continue to be up front with him and sell him what he wants.