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kameljoe21 Swing blade mill build

Started by kameljoe21, September 19, 2015, 01:04:27 AM

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kameljoe21

So I have finally started my build on my swing blade.
Right now i have a 5 hp electric motor and a T gear box.
Question, Who has made an electric mill with a 5 hp electric motor, I am going to use the Lucas 424mm blade ( 16" and change ), how was the power, under powered or just right ?
Right now I am going to make a hub for the blades i have right now, and make the Lucas one later on, with my design i think that i can change out size and be fine, provided that i make the hub the correct length.
I am going with a gear box, so that later on if i want to go someplace with out power i can swap to a gas.


Hilltop366

Welcome and good luck with your build, sorry no help with your questions.


sawmilljoe

5 hp will be a little under powered on full cuts on the lucas blade just take smaller cuts. and before you run this mill make sure there is no way to hit metal clamps or in the tree. trust me I will scare the crap out of you . I have made a swinger and will never again but if you have any questions feel free to ask.
sawmilljoe

kameljoe21

saw mill Joe
thanks for the information, I know what hitting metal is like on a band saw, we hit a 6 inch long nail last year the was deep in the trunk, and the guy i help out with the band saw, doenst like me telling him that we need to reset the dogs and he hits them from time to time.

So now I have to order a few parts as i can not find any one who has anything like this, some time this week I am going to mill out the new key way for the new shaft in the gear box, as it was just a 90 when i found it, and find a new bearing for the end that i opened, i still need to figure out how i am going to move it side by side, i was going to use pipe to slide over the solid 2 inch stock for the rails, but i think i am going to find some pulleys and do one on top and one on the bottom, 4 times, 2 on each solid stock
Any one have a better idea, This is what i have to use, not really looking to buy stuff if i dont have to, I am trying to locate some 2 inch wide pulleys but not having any luck,
I am going to open up the 4th hole as well and build the handle off of it, but then again i may not, Never mind this just wont work with out welding in in place as it will turn... scratch this idea


what i am going to order off ebay....
2x 1-1/8" Pillow Block Bearing,
2x 3.5" DIAMETER 1-1/8" BORE 1 GROOVE CAST IRON V-BELT

kameljoe21

sawmilljoe....
being under powered, will this apply to cottonwood, more of a soft wood, as i don't think ill be cutting anything other than this, with my set up if i do need to get a larger motor i can swap it with ease, nothing will affect the alignment as it with a gear box

Has any one made one with a T gear box and how does it work ?

beenthere

Sawing cottonwood can be one of the tough ones.. takes very sharp saw bits (teeth). Cottonwood likes to tear more than cut clean.  Not all the logs, but enogh.  Wouldn't put it in the class of a "soft" wood expecting it to saw easy.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

kameljoe21

well i came up with this for the rollers  they are bow rollers for boats


 
Im not sure if they will support the weight but then again boats weight alot, dont know if there will be alot of play with something like this

Let me know what you think, this is for the side to side movement....

beenthere

kameljoe

Read the FF rules at the bottom of every page about posting eBay links.  Just FYI.
Pls don't take it personal.. we all go by them. ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

kameljoe21

Quote from: beenthere on September 20, 2015, 01:01:08 AM
kameljoe

Read the FF rules at the bottom of every page about posting eBay links.  Just FYI.
Pls don't take it personal.. we all go by them. ;)
Fixed it, thanks

kameljoe21

has anyone used a CNC Precision Rack and Pinion ( 2nd pic below )to do the right and left movement?

or what about ACME Trapezoidal Lead Screw ( 1st pic below )for vertical movement ?

kameljoe21


sawmilljoe

On mine I used bearing top and bottom with a steel rode and pipe in front with a lock to hold it in place. 5 hp will cut slow on 6 inch cuts but if speed isn't key will work.

kameljoe21

So more photos for your viewing pleasure
In a couple of days I am going to order half of the parts i need
the photos are of the carriage that i am going to use
measurements are inside to inside of 2in solid stock 24.5 inches 
Inside to inside of angle iron 6 feet and then outside to out side is if i remember right is 78.25 inches
I squared it up as much as i can do tonight but will get my friend to help me tomorrow once its square I will weld a 1 inch bead on the top and bottom for right now in case i need to change something
the threaded rod is 1 inch diameter and 5 threads per inch, right now its the only one i have so I am going to order another one and 4 nuts
My idea is to make a 18 inch pipe with the nuts welded on to it ( half is above and below the angle iron), cut out a u shape in the angle iron and make 2 plates that will bolt on top and under the angle iron to hold the threaded rod, with flange bearings on the frame top and bottom and attack roller chain on top, with a large wheel or some type of gear box
what size gear box has anyone used ? i currently have on that is 40 to 1 with 29 rev per min when attached a 1750 electric motor to it


  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 

CaseyK

Welcome to the forum kameljoe & congrats on starting your build. I am building twin blade sawmill and used 1" 5 turn acme rods for the raise/lower and used 1/2" 8 turn acme rods for the right/left movement. For long term use buy the brass nuts and the premade mounting bracket that you had showed earlier because it will make alignment a lot easier. Please take a look at my build and if you have any questions please let me know.

Casey K
Home built automated twin blade

kameljoe21

CaseyK
I see that your rods are on just one side of the carriage, how is the support, via the vertical post? Or i mean how does the rod lift even weight being one one side, or does the post allow for free movement upwards ect??

CaseyK

Hi KamelJoe
There is 4 acme rods for the lift, one on each corner tied together with #50 roller chain powered by a wheelchair motor. I added proximity switches and pick ups on each rod to detect if there is a problem and one rod stops turning which would twist the frame. My rear ratio for the sprockets is 14/40 i think and the movable part of the frame is probably close to 1200lbs. By using the acme rods you can get super accuracy. Ive got 5000/rev encoders on mine and am able to reliably stop +/- .003 of an inch from commanded position for both the raise/lower and the side to side positioning. 
Home built automated twin blade

kameljoe21

CaseyK
1200 pounds, for the motor and all the parts that move,

I think i have come up with some where around 300 lbs for the electric motor and maybe up to 500 lbs with a gas motor

I am going for something like this in the photo and on the video but I am  wondering if it being free standing will apply to much weight to it or should i have some type of attachment to my vertical post on the frame, maybe some type of adjustable guide rollers


 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfX8gVggM0

kameljoe21

Question
Has anyone made a wood deck for the mill, opposed to just having dirt and steel rails that you have to walk over

I have a chance to get some pretty straight trailer frame that has been cut up already, about 8 inches deep and 3 inches wide, kinda like an i beam
I was thinking that i could place in my my cross braces between 2 outer frames and everything that i would need to lay in some 3 inch thick slabs with some type of end to keep it all snug and still be able to replace any ones that warp or degrade

kameljoe21

got part of the frame built, I messed up a blade on my horizontal band saw, and that was the last one i had, i just changed it out the other day with a new one, messed up some teeth on it and now its side cutting, ill have to order some more,
the frame is square with in a 1/10 of an inch, though the angle iron is not all the same size but i made up for it when i squared the center of it
you can see i used some cut wood to get my 30 inch inside to inside for the carriage to fit in it 
so now i need to bust open the carriage and trim an inch off of each solid stock so that i can get right at 6 feet 6 inches with the angle iron so that part will be right square with the frame, I think tomorrow i should get it finished,
I hate using my cut off saw for large stuff like that, so need to get blades




  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 

kameljoe21

Got the frame finished, pretty much straight, a little flex on the open end, gave it a bit of red paint i had laying around, I will put in cross braces later after i get the carriage fitted in and see how all that goes, part will be on the way sometime next week



  

  

  

 

kameljoe21

I got the thread rod and nuts in to day and finished that part of it
I was careful and made sure that it turned after i tacked it. well must of not turned it enough be cause it got all jammed up
ended up have to cut them in half to make one nut and pipe, that last nut that i couldn't get off ended up torching it off and ate a part of the rod but that part is up high and don't think it will do any harm, you can see it on one of the photos, I tacked it on the the carriage and moved it up 5 inches,
will finish welding it tomorrow and paint it, now just waiting on the other parts to come in, should have some pillow blocks tomorrow and maybe the bow rollers, I need the bow rollers be for anything else, so enjoy the photos 





  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 

kameljoe21

Got the carriage painted, The last of my parts have come in.
got the sprockets and turned some sleeves for in in side to fit the threaded rod, and taped the set screws.
Working on the carriage, there are some photos of it mocked up with the bow rollers, I am about 160 ish and i put my weight on it and it seems like they will work, Tomorrow I am going to my neighbors to mill out the slots for the bottom bow rollers so that they are adjustable. I still need to drill out the mount hole for the pillow blocks and mill out key ways for the T shaft. Other than that progress is making its way, motor mount and those then will be in the next few days. Also put some casters on the bottom so that i can move it around, its getting heavy.

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 

CaseyK

KamelJoe, project is coming along nicely & looking great. I believe you said you were going with an electric motor for the saw blade but have you decided what you are going to do for the feedworks?
Home built automated twin blade

kameljoe21

Not sure what you mean on feedworks

If you mean what the electric motor will drive the gear box, for right now im going to use 1/2" belt, if this doesnt work i will go to roller chain

rack and pinion to go left and right

If you meant the up and down, I am using large farm type roller chain, I have a gear box that 40 to 1, and a couple my neighbor has that may work too, I'm not sure what size motor i need to run the sprockets

Kbeitz

For your up and down wheelchair motors work great and they come with a gearbox.
Cheap on E-bay...
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

kameljoe21

mock up of what the motor mount will look like, and no that is not the motor i intend to use, just didn't want to lift that big one and have it slide and fall off


 

with location of the gear box


 


  

  

 
Roller chain is on, going to make a tension sprocket, still thinking on that one, i may make one for each side, I need to get the sheet metal thingy at my neighbors that will work for the chain guard 


 


Motor mount bracket and plate, the plate was a awesome find in some junk, had to drill out a hole as only 3 bolts lined up,

 

Motor mount things


 






kameljoe21

Kbeitz

The only thing about wheelchair motors are they are dc power, and i have no plans to add in dc power
I going all ac power....

I have a treadmill motor, but haven't looked at it well enough to know if it will run in reverse or what power it takes

kameljoe21

I went digging around and found the treadmill motor, and it can be reversed, I will have to make some connectors and test it to see how the speed control is on it, I just dont like the housing on it right now, if i use it, I will make some type of housing for it

I found a couple of motor and gear box
specs are
115v 1.5 amps single phase
1/15 hp 5000 rpm 391:1 ratio comes to like 12 rpm, or 2 inches a min, on a rough estimate on the turns i did and measured

the one with out the label
is all set up be sides the reverse
i counted it to be about 35 rev per min making it  approx 7 inches a min give or take


pros and cons

treadmill motor
variable speed
crappy housing

motor gear box
low hp
super slow
easy to fix up on the mill

Pointer will be nice
ill post some pic tomorrow of the motors

Kbeitz

you are going to be surprised to find that most  treadmill motors are DC.

This is all you need to put DC on your mill...



 

Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

kameljoe21

Yeah i know the tread mill motor is dc, but i have the transformer and control board
ill shoot some photos after i get back from milling out some stuff

and what is that in the photo other than a terminal bolt

Kbeitz

It's a BIG diode..... Changes your AC to DC

E-bay sells these control boards for the wheelchair motorgearbox.
The gearbox will save you lots of money with the built in gearing. And they have a quick release leaver.



 
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

kameljoe21

well.... Im kinda stuck...

1 the rollers don't work, to much weight with the motor on it, works fine with no motor
2 the gear box shaft is 9 inches center to end of the permanent part of the shaft, Don't know why i didn't look in to that more, might work for a 20 inch blade
3 I need better photos of mills with electric motors set ups and how you made that swing part of it.... the one i made before i got the gear box was off the motor mount and made it to heavy to swing, so now i need to come up with something that will be more in the center, I have flange mounts on the motor but nothing i can find that fits it or something i can order for the  round plate to make a pivot point

So any help would be greatly appreciated

coalsmok

From what I see the bow rollers do not have a bearing in them and you have them just running unlubricated on a bolt, lots of friction to overcome. You may be able to mount some flange pillow block bearings on your carriage and set screw the bow rollers to a axel thru them to help with that issue.
If you machined the gear box from a 90 to a T style what's to stop you from making the output side shorter?  Or just find a blade that will work?

kameljoe21

on the gear box, I can flip it around to the shorter side, the gear box is a 4 way, meaning i can set it up to any angle

on the rollers, i have 6 steel bow rollers that im going to try out

I have also put in a request for a custom milled out part to pivot my motor, going to see what it cost to have it made
should know in a day or 2

kameljoe21

fixed the roller problem

Now the bad news, the motor took a 3 foot dive off the carriage, and its not starting, i dented a capacitor a little bit, and the shaft was stuck a bit, but a hammer fixed that, now it just wont turn when i turn the power on , it turns just enough to see it try but wont go any more.

..... I am stuck and don't know what to do, ill make a few calls in the morning, but iI am sure its going to cost me more than i traded for the motor.

I have another source for another motor ill see what i have to give for it

beenthere

What a revolt'n development this is (old sayin).  Life of Riley in the 40's

Sure sorry to hear that. Hope it isn't something major and a fix is possible and not expensive.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

CaseyK

Sorry to hear about the motor falling. Goodluck on finding another one.

Casey k
Home built automated twin blade

Magicman

QuoteNow the bad news, the motor took a 3 foot dive off the carriage, and its not starting
Bad.  :-\ Sometimes Murphy will show up and he always changes our plans.  Hopefully you can work through it with minimum $$$.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Sawmill Man

    Could be that you just killed the capacitor in the fall. You say motor tries to start and then stops, I would check out the capacitor .

                        David
"I could have sworn I went over that one with the metal detector".

kameljoe21

good news....

must have been the reset switch, that was stuck or something
went out to show a friend and the danG thing works

what would be the min motor size for the 20 inch or 21.5 inch blade the lucas replacement 550mm blade

im thinking thats the one i will order to made the gear box work

beenthere

kameljoe

FYI.. the forum accepted word is "DanG".. 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Kbeitz

If the motor has starting points I bet that a chunk of dirt got between them when it hit.
After a few tries the dirt probably got flung out,.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

kameljoe21

true....

i did a few test later today

a few times it has hard start but starts, other times it starts fine

in other news

I got the pillowblocks in for the threaded rod
and got a few parts for my feed power to move up and down
I have decided to go with the treadmill motor as i think it will work the best and it has speed control
im going to make a few parts for it and make a mount and test it out after i get the threaded rod set in place and see how it all goes

kameljoe21

So a bunch more photos

some are fails, some are good

got my control box made, just need to get some eye hole things to run the 220v to the box, I am going to try direct drive to the threaded rod, if that doesn't work then ill add the gear box, but im banking that it doesn't work, as for the 1/15hp gear box, too weak and doesn't work
I should have it up and tested tomorrow...

Also, i came up with a better way to pivot my gear box, BTW im going to get the 21.5 inch blade, so that i can keep using the gear box

I am  going to cut the shaft and put it back like a 90 and then the other shaft will be the pivot point, ill make some collars and set screw them to the shaft and then set screw them in to the gear box, that will make my pivot point much better



 
control panel with speed control, up and down switch, push button to move up and down and motor power button


  

  

 
Motor mount that i made 1 inch to long


 
cast iron rollers added in... moves much better with the weight on it. to keep it center, i have some tube im going to cut and add in on each side this will allow for even spacing and for it to roll, kinda wish i could drill out the holes bigger and weld them in, got to think on that


 
1 inch to long, to fix it, i think i am going to cut one inch out of the channel, place some stock under it clamp it and weld it while its bolted on and in the correct place,


 
fail pivot idea


  

 
blue wires were a heat sensor, i took the lid off and removed it rather than cut it


 
failed gear box, just too weak, i have 2 or 3 of these, any one need them ??


 
4 hours of mill work for something I cant use now, should have made them 3 inches long


  

  

 
attempting to do this couple on a drill press really doesn't get it true and straigt. first one i did was lop sided, went down to my neighbors and used his lathe and ran a 1/2 hole thru it and then put a 1 inch hole about 1 1/5 inches deep in a 3 inch shaft, came home and drilled out 3/8 set screws and tried the small gear box, didn't work, then set it on the drill press and made sure it was lined up with a 1/2 bit and then drilled out with a 11/16 came out pretty good, Im glad i have drill bits up to 1 1/8 and few past that, for 1/2 arbor


 
fail


  

 
My junk yard kerosene heater, that i can burn all that old motor oil i have, got to add some farm desile in it to run it but it works, has every option with it, once i put in that pipe in the roof, that i have been meaning to do all year, i can run that and my other stove to keep the shop warm


 
this is what it will look like if i add the gear box, ill have to make a new coupler but that not that much work

kameljoe21

Another late night, did a test run on the motor and gear box, seems like it will work out pretty nice
On the other hand, i did some reading up on problems with the motor, and when it fell, i think it might have gotten misaligned, so i am going to open it up and see if i can fix it, Monday im going to call the elect motor repair shop to see what it will run to fix it if i can, or at least have them run some more testing on it, and see if they have any 10 hp single phase motors, used ones, and see if they will do some trading, i have a few 3 phase motors and another 5 hp that the rotor is stuck 


 
this is the gear box that i may use



 
shows the cut shaft with collar inside and one out side, now i need some smaller set screws, I have a whole box of 1 1/2 3/8 set screws, so ill have to cut then down for the out side one. you can see where i went in to the housing on the out side


  

  

  

  

  

  

 
Now just pretend that there is a handle where the round handle is, that my pivot point

kameljoe21

Well that didnt take long

I took the motor apart and looked everything over and it had a bit of ware but not a lot in a small part of it like something was in it
Now it doesn't grind or feel gritty, starts and runs way better, I do think that it will be fine

tip when taking a motor apart, just undo the bolts in the back, the 2 screws in the front hold the bearing in, had to stand it on end to find the hole stick a screw in it to hold it in place, then flip the shaft down and screw in the screw

all in all took like 20 mins to take apart and look it over and put it back together

 

  

  

  

  

 

kameljoe21

No photos today, but i will take some of what i did tonight

So far, I built the plate that has the treadmill motor and gear box on it, I didn't get a chance to test it yet on the threaded rod , but it looks and feels like it will have plenty of power, made 2 couples to attach them together, I kinda wish i knew where the love joy couples i have are, Just cant locate them.

I have set and clamped the pillow blocks in place and I still need to square up the frame and make final adjustment, then find some more angle iron and make a chain guard and maybe a tension for the chain

CaseyK

Project is looking good Kameljoe
One thing also to consider on the up and down motor is the gear ratio of your sprockets to control speed and lifting capacity of the system. I was just about to go to a 2 motor system on mine when i replaced the sprocket mounted to the acme rod with the biggest sprocket that could fit without hitting the frame and presto: all of up and down intermittent sticking problems were solved.

Casey K
Home built automated twin blade

kameljoe21

Not sure how teed puts the videos in his post if anyone know let me know

CaseyK here is the up and down, showing how fast and slow i can make it go
https://youtu.be/mUX2MJk1Dis
http://www.youtube.com/v/mUX2MJk1Dis&fs=1&start="

kameljoe21

setup with the chain being held up with pipes 


  
40 to 1 gear box with tread mill motor, has speed control. works great check out the video above this post 


  
grease Zerk for the gear box, it was an oil one before, went looking in a can of Zerk that i have and lucky that i had 2 that were the right thread, there is 2 because one was to check the oil level, the plug on the top has a vent hole so that's the way i can tell if its full


 
using a small jack to act like a drill press while drilling out holes for the flange type pillow block bearings for the threaded rod


  
straps and wood to square up the bottom so that i can bolt in the threaded rod pillow blocks


  
drilling out bottom holes for the pillow blocks, the jack works great and really helps out a lot


  
clamped the stabilizer section for the gear box motor mount, I predrilled it on the drill press and camped it on and drilled it out


  
another angle view of gearbox and motor and chain


  
shows the gap on the top of the frame, between the threaded rod and the hole i drilled out, threaded rod is 1" and hole is 1 1/8


  
feed motor and gearbox from different angle


 
drilling out top of frame for flange pillow blocks with a jack


 
drilling out stabilizer plate for feed motor, with a clamp, this works as well, got to be careful that you use wood behind the clamp or your will drill thru it, also, just before you pass thru, remove the clamp, as there is not enough force to drill thru with out the drill whipping, with a small hydraulic jack, there is enough pressure that it passes right thru, would be easier if i made a custom adapter and or have another set of hands but i made it work


  
shows the plate when i ran my first test, I had extra hands when i did this


 

beenthere

Some words with your pics would be great.. so we glean all that you want to show..
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

kameljoe21

beenthere
All fixed up with words and stuff, I was going to write something later tonight, I just wanted to get the photos up so that people could see them, while i was doing other things, sorry for the hassle

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