ponsse/valmet/tj/deere

[beulahland]

Hello everyone!  Its been awhile since I posted last.  Im still thinning pine plantations,   small tracts and residential cuts with a chainsaw and forwarding trailer.  I'm posting because I'm looking at high hour wheeled harvesters from the guys listed in the subject I'm sold on CTL system for a bunch of reasons.  The only reason I'm afraid of bringing one of those machines from up north to NC is 2 things there is not a CTL operation within 200 miles of me and with high hour machines I know there will be lots of down time. 1 no mechanics here have ever worked on them.  2 how hard will it be to get parts? I was wondering if there was any mechanics on here that have worked on several or all of these machines and which creates the least headaches? I like ponsse but I have zero support here.  However we do have kamotsu and Deere dealers (im a deere guy)here. I realize there are no easy answers just looking for advice from guys who have run and fixed them.  Thanks in advance. I enjoy this site so much can't tell you how much this site has helped me getting started. thanks again!

[snowstorm]

there is a learning curve and it can be steep. a little imfo about the wood you cut and the price would help. when i first went ctl i found a 546 valmet with a 150 keto head at a price i couldnt pass up. it was a pretty simple machine later on i bought a rottne then put a 500 keto on it. that works very well.but even that dosent like hot weather. i would assume your summer temps are much higher than here. parts are only as far away as ups. you have to be able to fix it yourself. i dont have much trouble with the head or computer. if you go ctl you have to be committed to it. it might seem slow at first till you get used to it. the speed will come later your chainsaws will stay in the truck and you will be inside a cab away from the rain snow or bugs 

[snowstorm]

what do you call a high hr machine? high hrs to ctl gear is 30,000 or more

[beulahland]

Yeah, there are lots of little concerns I have the learning curve is one. As far as hours and age of the equipment I'm looking at late 90's 2000 model machines 15 to 25000 hours.  I feel I can work on most of the older stuff. Growing up on a mid sized farm we never hired a mechanic for anything and there was plenty to work on!
   The hydraulics getting hot in the summer are another concern.  our lows in the summer are 85 and high into the 90's by lunch with 85% humidity but i m pretty sure that machine will handle that heat better than I do on the ground all day.  That's one of the reasons I want to get off the ground I overheated way to many times this summer.
   The wood I'm cutting Is ideal for CTL. I still have a problem understanding why its not more popular here. 80% of wood here is pine plantation or natural pine stands.  1st thinning dbh is +/- 10"  at 15yrs to clear cuts at 30 yrs and 20" dbh.  Average delivered price for pulp is 32/ton saw timber sells for 46/ton. There are very few hardwoods on the coast where I am.
   My biggest concern is downtime I plan on being down two or three days every couple of weeks but two weeks every month would kill me

[1270d]

Problem with some of the 15+ year old equipment is finding electronic parts.   Also the wiring is starting to break down and can cause no end of grief.   If you are familiar with electrical schematics and multimeter its not bad, as almost all wires and connecting points are numbered or labeled.   

I heard of a guy in my area with an older Deere harvester who ended up having to buy a used display model lokomo computer system on eBay after the dealer said it was unavailable. 

The last year of running our 1270, I logged 120 hours of down time.  This doesn't count changing bad hoses or greasing etc.   Only machine failure down time.  It had about 13k hours.   

A machine that lived in pine plantations all of its life is going to have quite a bit less head fatigue than a machine like ours which was in hardwood most of the time.

[lumbertick]

1270 was that the original head on the machine? Was it machine breaking down or the head? Knock on wood my 1270 has 17,000 hours but head only has 4800 I have had good luck with ours so far. Don't get me wrong it breaks down but they all do.

It breaks down to having a small payment and some break downs or you can have a huge payment and a little break downs...

[beulahland]

Computers and harnesses are the type of thing I'm worried about.  Odd hyd pumps motors and valves that are discontinued...
        With that being said I am a one man operation and I plan on keeping my tractor/forwarding trailer busy with the harvester which shouldn't take long. Maybe 10 to 20 hrs a week at most. In a perfect world the harvester would last forever we all know plans and logging are like oil and water.  There's no telling what will break do to operator error as well ;D thanks again!

[1270d]

Yes it was the original head.   All the feed motors and the saw motor went in that last year.   Head frame was pretty tired.   Valves were starting to get funky in the head.  The base machine was pretty solid.  It was starting to get some wiring quirks and some emissions related things on the engine were giving out.   Had a newish pump in it.  Cylinder packings,....all that small stuff sure adds up in a hurry.


If you are cutting plantation pine production would be high seems like.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Running a 2001 Ponsse Ergo harvester with over 21k machine hours on it now (most of that in hardwood), the head was rebuilt at around 14k hours and could use it again. It has its share of downtime (in the shop right now with a bad ring and pinion in the boggy end of the machine, roasted a turbo last winter, etc). It also has a few computer and electrical quirks and gremlins, and parts for the computer are NLA new only what used parts the Ponsse guys can round up. Having said that the Ponsse parts and service guys are great at talking you through problems and getting you the parts you need in a hurry. I run the machine hard 10+ hours a day in hardwood and am actually surprised at how much up-time I get out of it.

As far as running in the heat, I've had no problems running the machine in 95°+ temps all day long.

[snowstorm]

there was a story in timberharvesting mag many yrs ago about ctl in the south.how it was going to the next big thing. 20 yrs later another story about it saying the price of wood was to low to support it. as far as getting parts. dose any dealer stock parts anymore? anything can be had next day air.

[beulahland]

That's good to hear the heat didn't affect you too bad! Parts seem like they can be ordered pretty easy if they are not discontinued.  I guess the dealers I mentioned in the op will not be that much help... I'll be talking to the dealers up north anyway.  I read where ponsse has great service.  Sounds like they will do what it takes to keep you going.
     Prices being to low are a problem for new ctl equipment here. Everything revolves around 16 man crews putting out 30 to 50 trucks a day.  Those guys are doing extremely well but they can't even stop to look at tracts less than 50 acres so there is a need small loggers. The mid sized loggers that do exist have a hard time competing with the big guys.  My plan has always been to stay as small as possible. Right now I am producing 100 ton a week on 40 gal of diesel.  With all that said I agree the cost of new CTL equipment and the loss in production would not work compared to the huge tree length operations here.  But a micro logger with old payed for equipment has all the work he wants.

[chevytaHOE5674]

dose any dealer stock parts anymore? anything can be had next day air.

Ponsse UP here has just about enough parts to build entire machines in stock. We are usually lucky and when something breaks and we are in need of parts its in the pickup we go down to Ponsse and get whatever we need and be back to the woods and running within a couple of hours.

[snowstorm]

it might help if we knew up your price range is.

[Ken]

When I started 4+ years ago with ctl I would have been in a heap of trouble without the support of some other contracting friends with similar equipment and the local dealers who have some employees with an extensive background in that type of harvesting. 

When the harvester goes down everything else grinds to a halt pretty fast.  It also gets very expensive having employees hovering around a machine trying to figure out the problem.  That being said if I had to go back to running a saw and pulling cable I would be looking for another profession.  Good luck in your decision.

[Corley5]

if I had to go back to running a saw and pulling cable I would be looking for another profession.  Good luck in your decision.

X2

[beulahland]

The closest thing I have to local support is this site I'm sure local friends  helped with break downs and that steep learning curve snowstorm spoke of.

Snow I'm looking at machines in the 45 to 60000 dollar range.  That's what I'd like to spend, but are those machines to used up to even pay for themselves.

[beulahland]

 Tahoe
  I've read a lot of good things about ponsse but kinda dismissed them because I have no local support but I may reconsider if thay are that good at keeping parts in and don't mind spending time on the phone to get you going.

Thanks again for all the advice everyone

[bushmechanic]

There is a very steep learning curve on harvesters some will make it and some won't. Being a farm boy is going to be a big help to you. A multimeter is your best friend when working on a harvester, keep one in the machine at all times. Tie wraps and electrical tape are a must also. Around here we call those machines "starvesters" because for the most part you will be starving by the time you get it to work and pay for the parts you have to put on it. :D

[chevytaHOE5674]

Here I've been singing the praises of how great the parts department at Ponsse is and now the ring and pinion that I need is going to be at least a 2 week wait.

Story of my life but the boggy axle in my machine was only used for part of one year because it was a transition year. They have gears in stock for the older and newer machines but not mine.

Machine has been down for a week already, two week wait for parts, then probably another week getting it all back together....

[1270d]

Must be taking the slow boat over.  That's a long while down.   Have you checked any salvage yards or if it's an axle used by other machines?    Our caribou had the same axles as a rottne for example.

[chevytaHOE5674]

I'm going to be making some calls in the morning to see what can be done to speed up the process. Called every salvage yard in the area and nobody has the correct axle, and the cost of an entire boggy axle is very pricey plus the cost of retrofitting my frame and such. The axle itself was used in many other applications but that particular gear ratio is a Ponsse only thing...

[barbender]

Snow I'm looking at machines in the 45 to 60000 dollar range.  That's what I'd like to spend, but are those machines to used up to even pay for themselves.

    Yes, they are too used up. Even an experienced CTL operator would have a very hard time making a go of it with an old machine like that. The other problem I see with your plan is that one of these processors will bury your forwarding setup. A forum member that I haven't seen on here for awhile, I think bobusa is his username, had a mini-excavator with a stroke processor head that he used to thin pine in the black hills of South Dakota. I think something like that would match your current equipment much better. I've even thought one of those units would work well in our area on some of these little 10 acre pine plantations we have in residential areas. They are very slow compared to a real CTL machine, but way cheaper and probably way lower maintenance. I wouldn't be surprised if they do a better job of limbing small pine as well.

[barbender]

Sorry, it's Bobus2003. Here's a link with a picture of his setup. https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,41664.msg602135.html#msg602135

[snowstorm]

if you can work on it yourself you can make a go of it with older gear. if you are going to have a service truck out there for every little thing then you almost have to run new. and yes you will need a forwarder.

[barbender]

I would still contend that a green operator that has no experience around these machines and no one with experience to help him really doesn't have much of a chance of making it with a high hour harvester, especially in the price range beulahland is suggesting. Maybe he could get something decent in a small tracked carrier for that money, but most any euro rubber tire harvester in that price range will be nothing but headaches, IMHO.

[BargeMonkey]

What is a "high" hr harvester ? Over 20k ?

[barbender]

Yes, I would consider a machine over 20K to be high hour. If it was a high hour, but fairly current model, say 2005 or newer, is one thing, but if you get into a high hour mid 90's machine, good luck. There are too many electronic and electro-hydraulic parts that are hard to get or no longer available for those machines. I have a buddy running a 2003 (I think) Ponsse Ergo harvester that has well over 20K. Original engine, pumps, and running gear. But I think he has owned it since it had around 5000 hours and he knows it like his wife, with all of it's little quirks. The computer system and the wiring will likely be replaced soon as it is obsolete. They were a DC powered system, now they are AC. He had this computer rebuilt, but it's getting where you can't get parts for it. Now, how would you like to get in that machine for say, $120K, and have a computer problem after 200 hours and discover you need to do a  $15,000 upgrade?

[BargeMonkey]

Threads like this are the reason I enjoy the FF.  ;)    I see the piles you guys put up and it's clean and neat, 2 machines and no huge clean up at the end. The part that scares me is the huge cost and down time, which I have little of with a skidder and buncher right now. So something like a 1270C or newer ? I see a 941Valmet with 11k hrs and a 370.2 for sale for low 100's, that new enough to avoid some of the head aches ?

[snowstorm]

the newer it is the more complex it may be. as far as 20khrs being high a lot would say no. a guy i know with several grapple skidders says his are pretty well used up at 13k hr. a skidder has a lot harder life than a forwarder. as far as the computer goes. is there any computer that isnt obsolete a week after its built. can one get into ctl for under a 100k yes i did it and know others that did

[1270d]

It depends mostly on the type of wood a harvester was in.  I don't think there is any wheeled harvester worth having if it's done 20k hours in hardwood.   That head will be thoroughly used up.   Probably lots of weld on the head, dents in covers etc.   

We have had three machines from the early 2000's, one harvester and two forwarders.  All between 15 and 25k hours.  In the past three years or so, there have been a lot of wiring troubles.  Not so much computer components, just wires going bad.   Breaking from repeated movement, wearing through and grounding, corroding back from terminals.   Some the casing was just hardened and cracked off.   
At least for me these are the worst kind of trouble.   With so much wiring on this ctl stuff it can be a day or two project to track down a gremlin.   Then you find yourself standing on your head between the seat and a dash panel with a flashlight in your mouth and and a multimeter lead in each hand.

[barbender]

Bargemonkey, I am really only familiar with Ponsse machines as that is all the company I work for has for CTL equipment, and I am somewhat familiar with the Timberjack/John Deere machines as a lot of guys around here are running them. We don't see many other brands of CTL equipment up here (A few Fabtek machines that are getting long in the tooth also). For the most part, a CTL processor with 11K would be considered fairly low hour. Most of the owner operators that contract for us are going for machines in the 8k hour range and running them until they get up around 15k. My buddy has his paid for and just wants to keep updating and fixing it, I think it has 23K hours on it. It is still in good condition, but it is one thing to run a machine with that many hours when you put them on it yourself. And 1270d is right, hardwood is hard on these machines. One of our processor operators told me the other day, after cutting a hardwood stand, that he figures instead of bringing the machines to the shop for a fall service, he will just ask to get put in some hardwood- you have most everything replaced by the time you get done cutting it ;)

[beulahland]

First off I want to thank everyone for taking the time to reply.  The knowledge and experience of members on this site and the willingness to share it is amazing.

    Sounds like the two biggest issues are electrical problems and the lack of a real forwarder.  My plan to stay a one man operation and only run the machine 10 hrs a week kinda solve both.  It will take all week to move the wood with my trailer that the harvester can put down in one short day. Keeping the hours and hopefully break downs on the harvester low. These machines are used to running 10 to 12 hrs a day if not double shifts....problems come up quickly.  If you guys on average see a break down every 50 or hundred hours that's down time weekly. If I'm only putting 10 hrs a week on a machine in theory it should be five to ten weeks between break downs on hard parts.  The problem with my theory is electrical problems come and never really go away regardless of the few hours I'm putting on the machine. At the same time I think like snowstorm said the older machines may be a little less complex and I will have time to work on whatever might go wrong. I wonder how many miles of wire are in a 99 model vs an 03 to 08 model.  Seems like there will be just as steep a learning curve on electrical maintenance as there is producing wood.
        With that being said I don't intend to pick up wood with my trailer forever.  If I can pay for the harvester in 6 or 8 months I plan on upgrading to a forwarder to balance things out a little better. 
      Thanks again everyone!!

[Corley5]

  My 99 Fabtek 133 has more than enough wire.  I've had a love hate relationship with it.  Love it when it's working right producing wood.  Hate it when it has an issue.  Love the fact that it's now all mine.  That counts for a lot.  Current issues are the AC quit last week when summer finally showed up.  There's a short somewhere that causes the harvester computer to shut off and restart when the engine RPMs are 2100 or higher and the float, close all or saw button are pushed.  It doesn't do it below 2100  :-\ and it doesn't do it all the time at 2100 or above.  It's needs to be tracked down before it gets cold.  I hate to put $$$ into the AC now when I'll be needing heat in few short weeks  :
  There is a learning curve.  If you've got experience with heavy equipment you'll catch on pretty fast.  Machines have their quirks.  Two issues I had were learning experiences of my own doing.  Don't buy cheap parts and this machine distills water in the fuel tank. 
  Make friends at your local hydraulic repair/machine shop.  Consider buying your own hydraulic hose machine that can do 4 wire hose.  It'll pay for itself.  Get a good multi-meter.  Have patience.  When electronics quit but are working again when you get to the landing or by the time you get things opened up for testing can be more than a little frustrating.  Change wires that flex the most first even if you replaced them once  ;) ;D   There's a reason they fail  :D ;D ;)
  Four hours of production with this machine will keep my old C4D forwarder busy for eight.   

[snowstorm]

i had to learn how to fix my ac. its not that bad. the r134 can leak through the wall of the hose and not just at the fittings. the compressor will not run if the system is empty and the hotter the weather the better it works and they dont make cool air they remove the heat from the air

[Corley5]

My pump and clutch are working and are only a couple years old.  According to my gauges there's the correct amount  of pressure/refrigerant in the system.  The condenser is free of debris.  I've been told that the H valve or something such thing maybe bad.  Or it could be the pump.  It doesn't blow cold air.

[snowstorm]

expansion valve. it converts it from liquid to a gas. too much r134 is almost as bad as to little. low side psi 21 to 35 hi side 199 to 227 all depending on air temp. if you only had 10psi lets say then it s low on 134 if its 40psi then you have to much. make sure the temp probe in the evaporator is working and not freezing 

[Corley5]

  It's in the green on my gauge.  When we first started it was showing too much so we bled some off and then finally let it all out and started over with the correct charge of 2lbs 10oz.  It didn't make any difference.

[snowstorm]

dose the compressor cycle on an off? is both the condenser and evaporator clean? dose it take air from outside the cab? mine did until i saw some hornets trying to make a nest in the hose





'

[barbender]

My low limit switch was stuck this spring the first time I turned the a/c on, so it is basically telling the system you are low on refrigerant, then the pump won't turn on. Just banging it around working on it caused it to start working again. I usually run my a/c a bit on sunny afternoons in the winter, the cabs still get hot from solar gain and it's good to cycle the system periodically. Which reminds me, it's time to fire up the preheater and see if it is ready for the cold ;)

[Corley5]

  The compressor clutch seems to engage when the switch is flipped in the cab.  You can see the fasteners/screws on the end and when turned on they blur  ;D   The condenser in front of the oil cooler and radiator is kept clean.  I blew out the cab filter which was pretty bad but it didn't make a difference.  I'm not sure about the evaporator.  Can't really see it in it's box along side the seat.  I haven't gotten as far as taking the covers off it.  Not much room and it's hot working inside the cab standing on your head.
  I ran a couple hours yesterday until the sauna was too much for me.  I hear you on the preheater

[snowstorm]

a can of brake cleaner can do a lot. when i got the valmet the ac didnt work as it should. sprayed the evaporator and all was good

[1270d]

Even though the compressor clutch engages, does it build pressure?   Pressure should build till the compressor ticks off, then fade till it ticks on again.

[Corley5]

Even though the compressor clutch engages, does it build pressure?   Pressure should build till the compressor ticks off, then fade till it ticks on again.

I don't know if it does that.  We're able to charge the system and the gauge with the fill hose says it's good.  Will a system take a charge if the pump isn't pumping?

[Firewoodjoe]

Dont mean to change the a/c conversation but I'm curious why beulahland doesn't buy a fell buncher. Cheaper and less electronics. When we added a buncher it double production. Just wondering.

[1270d]

It will take a charge if the pressure on the low side is less than the pressure in your refrigerant container.