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Question for spike 60 and weimedog

Started by Maine logger88, August 29, 2015, 10:48:20 PM

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Maine logger88

Have you guys tried the spike Special mod on the xtorq saws? I have a 2166 that I need to replace an intake boot on and I thought I may try it while it's apart. It's already got the transfers ground off I actually did them at the dealer before he even started it lol
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

John Mc

I know I've probably read it here at some point, but what is the "Spike special mod"?
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

weimedog

Quote from: Maine logger88 on August 29, 2015, 10:48:20 PM
Have you guys tried the spike Special mod on the xtorq saws? I have a 2166 that I need to replace an intake boot on and I thought I may try it while it's apart. It's already got the transfers ground off I actually did them at the dealer before he even started it lol

Yup he has tweaked them. Usually a no base gasket build. Check the squish first please. I'll let him comment on the specifics of what he does.
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

weimedog

Have one in this video somewhere that was the "lab rat" developing his approach, if I remember the one in the video was finicky, ran better the first outing than the second. Might have been the chain, but there was a reason it under performed the second time. There was a reason I just can't remember how it ended up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXvVp6gZcpo
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

Maine logger88

Ok thanks for the info! So no grinding on the bottom of the cyl and piston on the xtorqs? Probably no base gasket and a mm would wake it up a lot! For a saw that's been run hard for A little over a year the p@c looks almost new!
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

ehp

always always run a base gasket , its a worksaw not a cookie cutter , your going to get the saw hot working and at some point its going to leak if no gasket , you can cut the base of the jug a ton, I do it and no trouble of any kind and have XT saws out cutting by timber fallers that are 4 years old , other than the gas line falling apart no other trouble . I run a 365 XT everyday falling in big size timber and its ported very hard , got a 372XT with heated handles to use in the cold days and its ported hard as well , There is alot of power to be gained with porting these motors , they come with a huge carb so why not use the air it can flow

weimedog

No doubt a gasket is a more flexible/versatile solution...its why manufacturers use them. Always wondered whether running no base gasket build with 185 PSI & stock RPM's is more risky than a "heavily" ported saw with a cut base & squish band pushing 200PSI and a few more RPM's pulling at that joint with those tiny four little screws ::) Me thinks a gasket is necessary in that situation with all that extra heat and cyclical forces!

I have several saws with a really thin 1194 base gasket that have survived in the work world. Some loaned out to experience logger hell. And when I took them apart to check things on some of those early builds; pulling those jugs looked like one of those old Little Caesar's Pizza ads with how well the OLD 1194 bonded and stretched. Haven't been as happy with the permatex "grey" though. That Permatex might help me sell some turning time on my lathe though..  ;)

Those X-torqs have tiny intake ports down stream of the big carb don't they. Think they might respond to more intake duration?

As an aside There are a few mercury outboards out there with gel seal gaskets. :) Yea they are a water cooled application. Along with a few power plants with Yamabond & Honda-bond as their gaskets in warm area's
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

weimedog

AND just makes one wonder about all those clam shell saws with a dissimilar plastic to aluminum joint.... bet they ALL must leak as they don't have anything but a thin "1194 like" gasket on less than flat surfaces.. and that's right where the bearings/crank are adding to the forces playing around with that joint!
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

ehp

you take most clam motor and push them real hard and tell me their not sucking air around their seals when their real hot  , and yes you guys go ahead and use whatever sealer you like and yep it should work but my way there is no quessing if it will work everytime , yep the intake on a xt is small but if you know what your doing you can make it pass alot of air/fuel , its no secret just use the stratos ports to pass fuel/air . I never want to see 200 plus pounds of compression on a real worksaw , 185 is about max with todays fuel as the octane is getting lower in our high test pump gas

weimedog

Sounds like we agree in principle on most things..  :)

Wait...

Nothing (Mechanical ...I concede death and taxes)  is 100 percent. Not even a gasket. All a game of statistics. Stock being the least chance of failure and any modification introduces variables that effect the statistics of failure which is why manufacturers void warrantees when new saws are modded.  So far all the builds I have seen at the 185LBS  range have proven to be within the favorable side of the performance envelope of genuine 1194. BUT I'm certain at some point one will fail. Chances are pretty good they won't though.

So are you saying all clam shell saws suck?

I do have one warmed up "clam shell" out in Amish country ...a 350 with 346 top end... fine thread bearing cap. Screwed and glued with 1194. Didn't leak enough matter going out. Didn't leak after 6 months of logging Amish style on its "check up"....it went to PA so I don't know how it is now. Wish it was close so I could monitor its life like I have with the other 350 based builds.
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

weimedog

Having said that, all "grey" sealers are not created equal! The old 1194 took some doing to break the seal. Even after the cylinder broke free...the 1194 would stretch .125 or more before tearing. More than any compression "bump" is going to move that joint. The Permatex just breaks free...no stretch at all. Haven't yet torn down one of the 1184 builds. 1184 is the replacement for 1194.
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

Maine logger88

Thanks for the info guys I ended up just putting the saw back together but I may play with it later
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

Spike60

Sorry I didn't see this a couple days ago.

I do cut the intake skirt on the piston .030 to give a little more intake duration, along with the .020 gained from the gasket delete you'll be at about .050. Muffler mod and 1184 for the gasket. Unlike most cylinders, the XT jugs have the squish band machined at the factory, so squish tends to be very consistant. I've done several of these builds and they all ended up at .021-.023. Pretty simple deal. My 2166 has a bit of a fussy carb on it, and the sweet spot has been a bit elusive. Haven't run into this on the other ones, so I'll replace it at some point. I actually work this saw a lot.

Cutting the base: Ed's builds are super and obviously more sophisticated. But not everyone has the expensive machine tools and the ability to cut cylinder bases and build pop ups and all that stuff which is all the rage right now. The whole premise behind what Walt and I have been doing is to find some recipes that average guys with average tools can do to get some nice gains without having to join the "I payed for a $300 port job" club.

1184 is the same as the 1194, without the "hazardous chemical" they had to take out, lead I think. I've taken some 1184 saws apart and it has that same tight grip. Yamabond seems liike it doesn't set up as good, and I haven't tried anything else. I resisted this "goop gasket" idea at first myself. I'm a factory guy; gotta have a gasket in there! But I was initially reassured by a very good motorcycle tech about what the threebond stuff can do. So, I've been using it for years without a single failure. And too many guys are using this stuff in saw builds everywhere at this point to suggest that its a risky proposition. And BTW, gaskets fail too guys.  :) That's why dealers stock them. Not unusual for a shop to have to replace one now and then. 
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