Timber Removal - East Texas

[GraceNmercy]

Recently I got news that in the next couple of years the Texas Department of Transportation will be expanding the highway that runs through our property. The highway is currently a 2 lane highway that will be transformed into a 4 lane divided highway, which means they will probable acquisition a pretty good sized chunk of our property. I'm working on getting a plan of the planned highway construction to see the size of the area they are considering. 

The property is small and only about 33 acres and although I've been planting various seedlings over the past few years to re-establish forest land on the mostly pastured property, the place has patches of large old timber that I've considered thinning the old cedars out of the past couple of years. Although most of the older trees grow along a creek and in the back sections of the property there are still a good number of old trees lining the property along the highway.   

Although it's a small strip there are still probably hundreds of trees including some very old and large red oak, pines and cedars. If it were you guys would you try to have it cut and sold or would you even bother with it based on the size of the area? If I had a saw and trailer to transport them I would,t even ask and would just go for it, but in my case I'd have to find someone to come buy it and cut it.

Not trying to advertise our timber, but just want some opinions on whether or not it would be worth it. I've attached a few photos and although it may not seem like it based on the photos, some of the trees are pretty huge...



 
The potential size of the property TxDOT might aquire. Could be more or less...I hope less



 
View facing east down the highway. Property goes down a good ways..



 
Property facing west up the highway..

[WDH]

Does not look like enough to support a commercial harvest for a logger.  Just a handful of loads.  Hard to move $500,000 - $1,000,000 of equipment for a small # of loads. 

If you add to the area to make it 20 - 30 acres, you might get more interest.  You could always get the timber appraised and make sure that the State compensates you properly and let them deal with the timber. 

[4x4American]

What you could do is bring in a gyppo logger, just a guy with a skidder, have him cut it, he'll take care of the truckers, where the logs are sent, and pay you your share.  Would prolly be better if you expanded the area to be cut.

[mad murdock]

I would certainly want to take the timber value off before the state claimed eminent domain, or offered you fair market for the land. At least you would get the benefit of the timber, and i would 2nd the notion of expanding the harvest plan to include some more of your trees, to make it more likely a local logger would do the job for you. Buy have it in the contract that the stuff newr the highway goes first.

[Texas Ranger]

Danny has the best idea, TexDOT pays for the timber.

[GraceNmercy]

Danny has the best idea, TexDOT pays for the timber.

Yea, but if I go that route then it would get split up between other cousins. My grandmother owns the largest part of the land and it's her family (us grand kids) who takes care of the place and pays the taxes. TexDOT will look up distant cousins across the country who want nothing to do with the place or responsibility to split up the entire value evenly including the pines and other trees things my grandmothers family has invested in. My grandmother may get a little more because of what she owns in the estate, but she's probably not going to be okay with relatives profiting off anything other than their share of the land when no one was concerned or would help her or my great uncle take care of things when there was a judgement on the place before he passed.

I like 4X4American's idea on the gyppo logger doing the cutting. If I can't locate one in my area who will do it, heck I'll get a few of us together with some chainsaws and equipment and cut it ourselves. I found someone with a tractor who comes out to plow my food plots for me and other conservation work. He said he'd come out and help me load the logs and take them to a mill. Only thing is he only has a 16 foot trailer that would limit the amount and sized logs we can load on it and we'd have to make multiple trips. I'm just brain storming right now but as soon as they contact us about the making the acquisition and it's the area I'm thinking I'm going to make a move whichever route I have to take.

[WV Sawmiller]

Gracey,

   Not sure why TexDot would get involved with finding others to deal with if your grandmother is the sole owner. I'd think they would be thrilled to deal with her or her agent rather than muddying the waters looking for other busybody's.

   What is the market for lumber in the area too? How much time constraint is involved? Instead of or in addition to a gyppo logger (new term to me) could you also or instead contract with a local sawyer to set up operations and cut and sell the lumber on shares? Assuming you have such sawyers in the area who might be interested?

    Good luck. Hope you can do what is best to help your grandmother.

[WDH]

Realize that if you plan to harvest it yourself and haul it to local mills on a 16' trailer, most local mills will not deal with you.  First and foremost, you have to have the proper insurance.

[coxy]

Gracey,

     gyppo logger (new term to me)

me to ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

[GraceNmercy]

Gyppo logger was new to me as well until I googled it after 4X4American mentioned it. As far as my grandma being the sole owner that's not the case. This is heir property and she owns a larger portion of it because of what was left to her from her father and uncle. the distant cousins own a smaller share of the property as well but would never help with taxes or any other responsibilities and have actually said they didn't want the responsibility of it. TxDot told me they would have to pay out all the owners which means looking up cousins whom some we have no idea who and where they are...

Gracey,

   Not sure why TexDot would get involved with finding others to deal with if your grandmother is the sole owner. I'd think they would be thrilled to deal with her or her agent rather than muddying the waters looking for other busybody's.

   What is the market for lumber in the area too? How much time constraint is involved? Instead of or in addition to a gyppo logger (new term to me) could you also or instead contract with a local sawyer to set up operations and cut and sell the lumber on shares? Assuming you have such sawyers in the area who might be interested?

    Good luck. Hope you can do what is best to help your grandmother.

[GraceNmercy]

Don't plan to take it to just any Mill, but one owned by someone I've already been communicating with on the matter. I'd much rather someone else do it, but if it comes down to it I will..

Realize that if you plan to harvest it yourself and haul it to local mills on a 16' trailer, most local mills will not deal with you.  First and foremost, you have to have the proper insurance.

[Puffergas]

Get your logs out on the landing and have the mills and loggers bid on them. No trucking involved on your part. At least that's how it's done over here.

[beenthere]

If TXDOT is correct, then doesn't sound like you can cut these trees and sell them without also contacting all the heirs.
But I obviously don't understand the "ownership" of the heirs.. seems someone has to be "in charge" (and maybe it is the Grandmother). Or someone needs to be appointed "in charge" by the courts.
Lawyers much allow such wills to be written just so they are guaranteed litigation business later on.

[GraceNmercy]

Great uncle has sold timber off the place for most of his life after he came back from WWII. He was 92 when he died and was in the process of selling more timber before he died in 2012 and he's never had to seek any consent from distant relatives who are also heirs. He left a will giving my grandma and I what was his. We wouldn't seek consent to cut any timber since we bought and planted so many trees on the place over the years, but I do plan on seeking as many out as possible to buy out or sign paper work to form a trust that gives us authority to make other business decisions in regards to the property...

If TXDOT is correct, then doesn't sound like you can cut these trees and sell them without also contacting all the heirs.
But I obviously don't understand the "ownership" of the heirs.. seems someone has to be "in charge" (and maybe it is the Grandmother). Or someone needs to be appointed "in charge" by the courts.
Lawyers much allow such wills to be written just so they are guaranteed litigation business later on.

[beenthere]

Sounds like time for a lawyer to help get things sorted out, 'cause apparently your Uncle didn't have full ownership of the property.
Would be interesting to see what the deed says, and what the will said that scattered this property around to so many heirs (and how long ago this took place). Maybe there are mineral rights involved??

I don't see where planting trees gives any right to cut others down for sale. Maybe all different in Texas.

Hope you can help Grandma get it straightened out.
Or in the meantime, cut the trees and sell them. Beg for forgiveness if any of the multiple heirs contest it.
Prolly they don't even know they have a part of this property if it has been a long time, and will not be a bother (until you look them up and ask them to sign off.. they may wake up to what is happening to "their" land).

[GraceNmercy]

No my great uncle didn't own the entire property. He was just the last of the first generation heirs. I have copies of the deeds and the names of all the original heirs of my grandmothers grandmother, which at the time represented 7 families. Now there are only 5 families (including my grandmas) as other heirs didn't have kids or the kids died without heirs. Only thing is some of the original 1st generation heirs born in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and 3 of those 5 families are huge and scattered abroad, which means there are lots of them to divide the small acreage that was divided between their grand parents and great grand parents. We've already been talking to the lawyer who did my great uncles will, so I know what our options are as far as the legal aspect of buying relatives out, signing affidavits, and setting up a trust or LLC. It will probably take some time but it's currently in the works.

We don't plan on asking other heirs for permission to cut timber so if there's any complaints, which I doubt, we will beg for forgiveness later. When the appraisers come out and look at the 1000 + pines we planted years back they're going to add all that into what they pay out to each family. We have to re coop the funds we spent, plus have funds to make repairs to the fence that TxDOT tears down along with other adjustments that need to be made. If we set up waiting for everyone's permission or expecting them to help pay for it with those checks they receive we will be waiting for a long time. Like always we have to do what we have to to take care on business...

Sounds like time for a lawyer to help get things sorted out, 'cause apparently your Uncle didn't have full ownership of the property.
Would be interesting to see what the deed says, and what the will said that scattered this property around to so many heirs (and how long ago this took place). Maybe there are mineral rights involved??

I don't see where planting trees gives any right to cut others down for sale. Maybe all different in Texas.

Hope you can help Grandma get it straightened out.
Or in the meantime, cut the trees and sell them. Beg for forgiveness if any of the multiple heirs contest it.
Prolly they don't even know they have a part of this property if it has been a long time, and will not be a bother (until you look them up and ask them to sign off.. they may wake up to what is happening to "their" land).

[WDH]

If you sell the timber to a Timber Company, and they check the title (which most do), then you cannot sell unless all the heirs agree. 

[GraceNmercy]

That's not possible for us until everyone is located and that didn't stop my great uncle from selling it all those years. We lease the land for multiple purposes and in cases we've had a few of the older heirs we know to sign with us, but with as many heirs as there are getting everyone to agree isn't going to happen until they;'re all located. I know what everyone believes based on the legalities regarding heir property, but I know too many people in Texas with heir property who are in the same boat and are not hindered by this issue when they are the ones taking care of the land. I'm dealing with a man now who's managing several heir properties now totaling over a couple hundred acres and they've had several companies out bidding and are now in the process of having the timber cut and sold. No one but him and a couple of cousins have agreed to it while there are a lot of others who aren't involved. In most cases most if the distant heirs know they haven't had a hand in taking care of the place nor helped with the taxes, so even though they are owners they don't contest it. I know that's not the case with every family, but it is with ours and most others that I know. As far as the Mills it just depends on who you're dealing with I guess. As far as not being able to sell it, if I did run into that issue I'd just buy a portable Mill and used the lumber to remodel the old homestead and barn, so we have a place to stay when we go hunt or gather chestnuts..

If you sell the timber to a Timber Company, and they check the title (which most do), then you cannot sell unless all the heirs agree.

[Ron Scott]

As WDH advised, we could not sell or cut timber here without full disclosure and permission of all the owners to the property or a signed reservation from the landowners of record on the rights to the timber. Maybe different in East Texas.

[timberking]

Your timber may be worth less than you think.  Road trees will have nails from election signs, yard sales, and lost dog fliers.  May could slide them in as pulp.
Also, see if the neighbors are in the same boat and combine forces and timber to make it more attractive.  Good luck.

[treeslayer2003]

um....i guess i qualify as a gypo....maybe. i wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole. here, things may be vastly different in Texas, but here ownership questions are a sure way to wind up in court.

[grassfed]

It sounds like it would be a very good idea to get the advice of an attorney that specialises in probate. Some estate administrator dropped the ball. If there are separate deeds then whoever has the deeded property that has the trees is the person that can sell them. If it was conveyed to all of the heirs then there really should be a document that spells out how management decisions are handled. Who was appointed the Administrator of your Great Uncle's estate? I would start there and work with an attorney to get a conveyance of the property that clearly states 1 who makes decisions and 2 how income derived from the property is distributed to the lawful heirs.       

[GraceNmercy]

I highly doubt anyone will end up in court here. I know most of those who do matter don't concern themselves with matters like these, and one of the biggest deterrents for most of those family members is that there are so many of them that most of them wouldn't make much of anything worth while once any sort of income comes in from the percentage of the property they actually own. If 7 of the 1st generation heirs would've received a little less than 4.9 acres and only 2 left wills leaving their 4.9 to one of the 2nd generation heirs (grandma), then grandma would own 9.8 acres out of the estate while the other 3 families each with their 4.9 would have to split that 4.9 with multiple other siblings and the children and grand children of those siblings. With each child and death of a parent most of those families are so large that if the land was sold or anything sold off of it the amount they would receive would be so small that it wouldn't matter much to them. That's the reason most of them don't bother with it. That's why they don't take it serious to bother with court because it's not worth it to them. There are a few older 2nd generation heirs who would get a little more, but those who do have any interest in it look to us to handle all that stuff and wouldn't fight us on making a decision on cutting trees. They would actually refer anyone with interest in buying timber or leasing to my grandma, who sends them to me. I know there's a legal way to handle it but most of these are older country folks that just do things different. We do have a lawyer working so we can work on straightening our a lot of the historical error.

um....i guess i qualify as a gypo....maybe. i wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole. here, things may be vastly different in Texas, but here ownership questions are a sure way to wind up in court.

[treeslayer2003]

i think i see how it may work there, no disrespect meant.

[GraceNmercy]

No problem at all. I know it's a confusing situation, but will be straightened out in time. In the mean time I'd just like to do something with the timber TxDot will eventually clear. Will need to use it to repair fences once once the new boundaries are set and put new gates up. The other funds will towards what we're paying the lawyer to straighten this stuff out with locating other heirs and bringing things up to date.

i think i see how it may work there, no disrespect meant.

[WH_Conley]

I will have to jump in on the side of hiring an attorney. Same thing happened here a few years when new road was built. I knew the deputy sheriff that had to serve paper work on over 30 people that still lived local. Don't know how many total. There were people that didn't even know they owned a share in the old place with their hand out.

[beenthere]

No problem at all. I know it's a confusing situation, but will be straightened out in time. In the mean time I'd just like to do something with the timber TxDot will eventually clear. Will need to use it to repair fences once once the new boundaries are set and put new gates up. The other funds will towards what we're paying the lawyer to straighten this stuff out with locating other heirs and bringing things up to date.

.....

The situation is very interesting.  Such lost heirs apparently happens, maybe more often than not.
You bring up the point of your lawyer sorting stuff out and bringing things up to date when locating other heirs.

Am curious what "bringing things up to date" means? Would it be signing off on the property they are heirs to, or getting bought out? Or just establishing that they have an address and location?

[GraceNmercy]

The situation is very interesting.  Such lost heirs apparently happens, maybe more often than not.
You bring up the point of your lawyer sorting stuff out and bringing things up to date when locating other heirs.

Am curious what "bringing things up to date" means? Would it be signing off on the property they are heirs to, or getting bought out? Or just establishing that they have an address and location?

My grandma knows most of the heirs but there are a few from the younger generation who's parents moved out of state that she doesn't know. We actually got a call from some great grand kids who lives in Tennessee  that she knows nothing about when one of the gas companies were trying to get a lease. One of their older closer relatives referred them to us since we handle everything. When they found out from the man contacting them that they were only get $2 or $3 they lost interest.

Getting things straight means locating and contacting all those heirs we don't know as well as those we do to see if they wish to sell. Those that don't wish to sell and still wish to be involved will be contacted about the importance of a trust or LLC and sent the paper work. A 2-3 person committee of trustees will be established who has the authority to legally sign off on and major business decisions.   

[Ianab]

That was my thinking reading through this. That you need a trust (or company) with official beneficiaries or shareholders. It then becomes it's own legal entity for business and tax purposes and the trustees or directors can run the day to day operations like selling timber etc

My Father died a few years back, and his will specified that we set up a trust for his assets, and the income gets paid to my Mother until she dies. This way the assets are not counted as my Mothers, and she can't "loose" them for any reason. But she has the income to support her if she needs it.  This is a simple set up with only 3 beneficiaries. Unless me or my sister die first, in which case our children inherit that share. Technically we could re-do the trust and keep a growing group of beneficiaries, but there is no real estate involved, so chances are we will just dissolve it and split the assets in the future.

But if there was "family land" involved it would be possible to keep it operating with a list of beneficiaries or a "buy-out" option etc.   

[Left Coast Chris]

Another option would be to put a provision in the sale with the DOT to buy the land only and the highway contractor must cut the trees and deck the logs on your property as part of the purchase agreement.   Our DOT (Caltrans) will do that with land owners pretty frequently.   Highway contractor has to clear and grub the new right of way anyway so it is not much more expense to stack and deck the logs on your adjacent remaining property.    Just watch out for wood cutters that could move in and cut it for firewood on a weekend while construction is shut down.

[GraceNmercy]

Well that's the plan to get the ball rolling on setting it up. Just don't think it will be done before they come through with the road so I'd like to do something with the timber before then....

That was my thinking reading through this. That you need a trust (or company) with official beneficiaries or shareholders. It then becomes it's own legal entity for business and tax purposes and the trustees or directors can run the day to day operations like selling timber etc

My Father died a few years back, and his will specified that we set up a trust for his assets, and the income gets paid to my Mother until she dies. This way the assets are not counted as my Mothers, and she can't "loose" them for any reason. But she has the income to support her if she needs it.  This is a simple set up with only 3 beneficiaries. Unless me or my sister die first, in which case our children inherit that share. Technically we could re-do the trust and keep a growing group of beneficiaries, but there is no real estate involved, so chances are we will just dissolve it and split the assets in the future.

But if there was "family land" involved it would be possible to keep it operating with a list of beneficiaries or a "buy-out" option etc.

[GraceNmercy]

Now that sounds like a great idea...I wasn't sure if they would take it away or leave it if requested, but if they leave it and stack it as you're suggesting then that may be the route to go. Then we can sell or use it without the hassle of us cutting or finding someone else to do it..

Another option would be to put a provision in the sale with the DOT to buy the land only and the highway contractor must cut the trees and deck the logs on your property as part of the purchase agreement.   Our DOT (Caltrans) will do that with land owners pretty frequently.   Highway contractor has to clear and grub the new right of way anyway so it is not much more expense to stack and deck the logs on your adjacent remaining property.    Just watch out for wood cutters that could move in and cut it for firewood on a weekend while construction is shut down.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, that's an option that's done here also.

[GraceNmercy]

Well I talked to the Dept. of Transportation and they send me the plan of where they intend to expand the highway. It will total about 2.67 acres all to the north, so our larger perperty to the south on the highway won't be affected. However the side that is being affected has a larger amount of timber, so after talking to a friend I who owns a sawmill about 25 miles away, I plan to start cutting the trees myself and taking them to him using two 16-20 trailers. I'm investing in a chainsaw and one of the guys who hunts our place will bring his and we will start off by cutting the big cedars and pines first. I'll sell half and let the friend at the sawmill mill me some boards to remodel (cabin style) the old homestead and the barn. We will clear as much as we can on the  trees with 10-20 inch diameter and I'll have the highway department to just leave the old oaks on the property as some of you have suggested. Many of the old oaks and pines are 2.5 - 4 feet across and I don't plan on handling anything like that. Here is a pic of the area they plan to acquisition...


 

[treeslayer2003]

why wouldn't you take the larger ones? they are the logs you want......10-20" are small.

[Plankton]

2.5 to 4 ft oaks will bring you some good money even though the oak prices are down right now. If your leaving anything leave the small stuff for the highway to deal with

[treeslayer2003]

2.5 to 4 ft oaks will bring you some good money even though the oak prices are down right now. If your leaving anything leave the small stuff for the highway to deal with

white oak down for you too? its hot here, wish i had more of it.

[Plankton]

Not to much white oak to be found around here but red oak is low right now, around 500 for grade 1.

[treeslayer2003]

Not to much white oak to be found around here but red oak is low right now, around 500 for grade 1.

oh.........i'm doing better than that on reds......6-700. hope fully it turns around for ya soon. it always does at some point.

[GraceNmercy]

why wouldn't you take the larger ones? they are the logs you want......10-20" are small.

Figured those would be easier to handle being a novice at this. I've cut trees but never anything as large as some of these and so I figured it would be easier to cut the trees with 10-24 inch diameters. Plus I don't want to attempt to cut any of the huge southern red oaks that are growing on an elevated slope over the current highway...too risky for an amateur like me. As for the huge water oaks in the bottoms I figure I'd have to wait for a friend of mine who helps with things like this to get home from college and come over with the tractor so we can haul them out of the lowland area. Not sure how many that size and get on a trailer though. If I do happen to find someone else willing to cut this small 2+ acre piece, perhaps we can offer a little more and allow them to cut the timber off 2 lots we own about 5 minutes up the road also has large timber...That would give a total of a little over 3 acres to cut. Anyway, I have a little time to work on it and figure out exactly what to do But I will still start cutting the large cedars myself in the next month or two...

[Ianab]

Sounds sensible to start with the ones you are comfortable with and have the equipment to handle.
Get help with the bigger ones.
Leave the ones close to the road for the pros.

[stpestan10]

Where in Texas? I am in eustace, looking for house logs and saw logs, mostly pine.

[Banjo picker]

Any thing that you leave for a clearing contractor, will likely be pushed over with a large track hoe which will ruin some of your logs.  They will be embedded with what ever type of soil or rocks you have in the area as well by the time they get stockpiled at your designated location.  Just sayin... Banjo

[stpestan10]

Where you located on 175. I might can help.