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Square Chisel Chain

Started by Knute, August 19, 2015, 08:14:29 PM

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Knute

Most of my chains are round ground chisel but I have one new square ground and really like the way it cut in oak. I understand they are difficult to sharpen and am wondering which file is best. I see the three listed are goofy, hexagon and double bevel. Also notice most places do not carry any of these and they are much more expensive.

Native Cutter

around here,  the chisel bit file double beveled, NOT the goofy one is pretty common, the 3 sided is as well. i cant say there is a best as it is YOU that are the deciding factor, by a long shot.
and yeah, theyre spendy. one reason why theyre mostly used by folks who make a living with em. buy a couple from Madsens or Baileys and have at it. It really is one of them practice makes perfect things. madsens has a nice lil write up about it.  not everyone gets good at this, its a lot more work but it does cut faster so its worthwhile. good luck and have fun!  :)

Knute

Thank You, and  welcome to the forum. there are a lot of members here with valuable information.

Native Cutter

 Thanx for the welcome!

and yeah this board is a wealth of information for sure!!  I know ive learned a bunch. only joined recently but i started researchin some saw build stuff here about 9 months ago.

Real1shepherd

I started running chisel chain in the 70's professionally. It was a real love/hate thing. Sharpen it wrong and your cut will pull to the left or the right. I bought a Grandberg sharpener for chisel(no longer made since the 80's) and even though everything in the instructions was there, they were poorly written. The best instruction are on the Madsen's site presently. I finally 'got it' but it took some time. Some people will tell you that they can sharpen it in the field with a file. I've seen those jobs and they're nothing like in a jig. Most professionals wound up with a Silvey grinder at some point and just closed their eyes with respect to the price....or they had a service do it and had lots of spares for their saws.

I still use the Grandberg, but it's cobbled together...I've seen some nice jigs jigs made by retired machinists, but they don't wanna make another. I approached a machinist here with a design and he would be hundreds of dollars. But you still have the pot metal Grandberg base. If you're gonna spend that you might as well get a good grinder and learn all the in & outs and angles.

I can tell ya with an 80cc+ saw and in wood like we have here in the PNW, they roar through the job....nothing like them. You'll hear guys tell you that 3/8' round chain or semi chisel will work as good or better. Guys will also tell you the chisel chain only works in softwood, which is another myth. These are guys that never worked professionally or never had a properly sharpened/maintained 404 skip-tooth chisel. Skip-tooth is great because it saves time when you sharpen on long bars. Some of this depends on the size of your saw, because it takes power/torque to pull it. That's probably where it got a bad rep-wound up on smaller cc saws, which really isn't a good idea...Madsen's talks about that. Square file chisel is not for the light hearted, but worth the hassle. You gotta remember that all the negative myths started about chisel chain were started by guys who couldn't get along with sharpening it or were just following the naysayers.

Just when I was getting ready to leave loggin' in the 80's, J'red had come out with the 900 sereis-910,920 & 930. A lot of loggers here in the PNW started using them. Even though the saw could rev well, they couldn't pull 404 skip tooth in a long bar. Since most of the scale available was starting to get smaller by then, they used a 36" bar with 3/8' chain. It's not clear to me what type chain they were using....I'm not sure if semi chisel was out then.....don't remember. In the J'red professional lit there was pictured a guy named Denny always with a 910 or 920 in the PNW taking some beautiful Dougs with a 36" bar. The bar looked longer because he was a short guy. I always ran the Husky 2100/2101 but the weight advantage of the J'reds was astounding. Husky got the message too and came out with the 394. We had no reason to believe the 2101 was gonna be dropped, as we just thought it would continue and evolve with EPA regs which were just starting. As they say, the rest is history.

Kevin   

HolmenTree

Welcome to the site Kevin. Two of my favorite Jonsereds in your avatar,  80 and 90.  I logged with a 910 in 1979 and a 920 a few years later . Great production saws,  I couldn't find a faster one for cut & skid until 1986 when the Stihl 064 came out.
A fellow named Wendel Walker introduced the Jonsereds line in the PNW in the mid 1970s. Wendel had previously worked for Oregon Saw chain. 
Carlton  was the major chain supplier for Jonsereds at the time.

Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Real1shepherd

Quote from: HolmenTree on August 22, 2015, 11:28:49 AM
Welcome to the site Kevin. Two of my favorite Jonsereds in your avatar,  80 and 90.  I logged with a 910 in 1979 and a 920 a few years later . Great production saws,  I couldn't find a faster one for cut & skid until 1986 when the Stihl 064 came out.
A fellow named Wendel Walker introduced the Jonsereds line in the PNW in the mid 1970s. Wendel had previously worked for Oregon Saw chain. 
Carlton  was the major chain supplier for Jonsereds at the time.

Thank you. To be honest, I had a faller friend who couldn't find work when I was living in CO(long story) and he wound up at a saw shop in Montrose. He came out to the site one day and let me use a new 910 he bought. I was at first put off by all the plastic. I had a 80 at the time(still own it, in avatar) and the 910 didn't outperform that saw overall. Hard to beat the dome piston of the 80 and all the low-end torque. Clearly the 910 had a weight advantage, but my muscles were used to the 2100 so I didn't really care. Didn't use it long enough to 'appreciate' the poor AV system in the handle if you pinched your bar!

Was that Walker of the famous 'Walkerized' fame? When I started in OR & WA there were a few Mac's around and many Stihl's, but then everything very shortly turned orange....as in the 2100. I was using a 075 at the time and this old faller put a 2100 in my hand. Never had anything else again for serious fallin' and we ran six ft bars for a few yrs in big Dougs, springboards and Silvey tree jacks. Then all of a sudden as if overnight, we were not cutting big Dougs anymore. On the 2100's/2101's we had nothing but muffler mods and a plugged gov....and it was all you could do to hold onto the saw with a six ft bar....lol.

I honestly never saw any J'reds professionally in the woods. Would love to run the 111S for a couple of days, but due to unobtainium parts, they are forced into mostly collection pieces now. I did buy a 910, but it's apart and I bought enough parts to make another. I can't wait to pit it against the 80. I think if J'red had slimmed down the 111S and put in electronic ignition, it might have been a true competitor to the 2100....I guess we'll never know. It was all about distributorships and parts sales in those days....Husky and Stihl had a real lock on it in the PNW. I love the bigger J'red's and that 80 was tricked out at the saw shop in Montrose. I was using it as a back-up saw and in smaller timber. That bone stock 90 in the avatar can barely out run it.

What bar & chain combo did you use on the 910/920 back then?

Kevin

HolmenTree

The 87 cc 910E was the last of the true Jonsereds. The factory was developing a 100cc 910 with improved handle system but was cancelled due to the new Electrolux takeover. Rumors go there's still a few of those big prototype 910's somewhere in Sweden to this day.
The 920 Jonsereds was introduced in 1982 with a Partner  1 piece handle bar setup with extra weight.
I had good luck and good production with the 910. Only broke 1 rear mount and learned quick to not pull on the handle with a pinch. I was falling, limbing and topping white spruce and some Jack pine on level ground. Dbh anywhere from 6" inch all the way up to 36". 18"-24"b/c.
But yes those old 80's were a stronger bucking saw. The 910 had the higher rpm powerband, excellent handling felling and limbing saw in treelength softwood.

Here's a pic of my brother Dennis in 1975 or '76 racing his Jonsereds 80. Notice the lines on the 12"x12 "timber.  Cold start, 3 cuts (down up and down) and don't cut a line or your disqualified. My brother was winning with his 80 up into the early 1980s.
Last pic is him with his MC Culloch 125 101 kart saw around 1990. This saw was built by Bob Walker out of Nanimo, B.C. His son now runs the saw shop......this is the "Walkersized guys". Can't forget the mother Holly.... without her there would be no Walkers Saw Shop or the CANLOG.


  

 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Real1shepherd

Yeah, I know the history of the 900 Series. Actually, Elextrolux Group AB bought Jonsered in the late 70's and moved the production to the Partner assembly line about '78. However for a few yrs, they left J'red's alone and hence the 910 was the last true Jonsered of that size. In the 920 you can see the Partner handle influence and with the 930, the Husky/Partner influence. 

That's why I made the comment "overall".....the 910 revved like a SOB fallin' and limbin', yes. But on the long trees, more time was spent buckin'....so at the end of the day, the 910 didn't produce anymore loads than the 80 did. Wasn't any point in spending the money for a new 910. Plus as said, I was suspicious of all the plastic. Now if that 910 had knocked my 80's d*ck in the dirt, I would have been down the mountain buying a new one, plastic and all...lol. As much as I love the 80's they do look rather dated and clunky up against a more modern saw. But then looks don't get the work done...lol.

*DanG, never heard that story about a 100cc 910...THAT would have been some tree slayer! You never found a pic of one, did ya? Nice pics of the competition stuff...never had any interest in doing any of that. After working all week with a chainsaw, I did other things in my limited spare time. Electrolux ruined a lot of stuff, like Murray did here to lawn equipment...and don't even get me started on what happened to TroyBilt...lol

There was also a rumor that there was a rev limiter(after the 910), built into the module of the 920/930, but I've never been able to confirm that. Only thing I know is that some of the carbs had a gov...easy enough to defeat. Anxious as hell to get my 910 up and runnin'. And speaking of govs.....I found a Tilly on a 80 that had a gov. And not only that, but it was a more elaborate carb with some refined linkage anomalies. I believe the saw to be original. I've got four or five 80's for parts. Weird, huh?

Kevin

sawguy21

Quote from: HolmenTree on August 22, 2015, 03:38:24 PM
Last pic is him with his MC Culloch 125 101 kart saw around 1990. This saw was built by Bob Walker out of Nanimo, B.C. His son now runs the saw shop......this is the "Walkersized guys". Can forget the mother...Holly without her there would be no Walkers Saw Shop or the CANLOG.
John Walker was one of my customers when I worked for the Briggs and Stratton distributor. Had some good conversations when he learned of my interest in saws.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

HolmenTree

Quote from: sawguy21 on August 22, 2015, 05:05:41 PM
Quote from: HolmenTree on August 22, 2015, 03:38:24 PM
Last pic is him with his MC Culloch 125 101 kart saw around 1990. This saw was built by Bob Walker out of Nanimo, B.C. His son now runs the saw shop......this is the "Walkersized guys". Can forget the mother...Holly without her there would be no Walkers Saw Shop or the CANLOG.
John Walker was one of my customers when I worked for the Briggs and Stratton distributor. Had some good conversations when he learned of my interest in saws.
Is John the son of Bob and Holly Walker?
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

sawguy21

old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Dave Shepard

I use a double-bevel-chisel-bit file. I've tried the goofy files, but they don't seem to file enough of the side plate for me. You also need to keep the gullet clean every two or three sharpenings with a round file, or it will really slow down the cut. I really enjoy sawing with a square ground chain that I've successfully sharpened. :)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

ehp

double bevel chisel file is what I use mostly, For a work chain the 6 sided file will work as well . It seems strange and hard to do at first but just stay with it and it will become pretty easy and you become alot faster at refiling your chain , doesnot take me very long to file a chain

bandmiller2

Sharpening a square chisel chain is tougher than fileing accurate headsaw bits. Unless your a special filer with lots of practice you better off with a good grinder. I use a Silvey razor sharp 2 perfect every time. Only disadvantage you need to carry a couple of sharp chains, but you can change a chain as fast as sharpen or faster. A sharp square chain is a pleasure to use. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

HolmenTree

I agree. I'm really liking how a square chisel bit chain cuts on my Alaskan mill and now starting a new learning curve with the chisel bit file, rather then just reserving it for competition racing only.
Those Silvey grinders are really nice though, but at this stage of my life I have no desire or need to up my lumber production level :D
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Real1shepherd

As I mentioned up above, using the Silvey grinder and having spare chains on the site is the easiest and best way to go. I got used to using the Grandberg jig on a stump around lunch, or if I had time the night before and had sharpened a few chains, I'd put them on at lunch. But the Granberg jig was crude and your cutter length would suffer because of it. For maximum chain life I'd have to find someone with a Silvey to even up cutter length at some point. Now that chain is even more expensive, the grinders are almost becoming a necessity for square chisel.

Like I said, I've seen it done by hand but the results are not worth braggin' about IMO. There is no reason however, that someone couldn't come out with a portable jig for square chisel....other than the lack of $$$ potential. Bailey's is carrying something that is over a $100 that fits on your chain, but it's not for .404 and it doesn't let you adjust any angles....just mirrors the factory grind.

Kevin

lumberjack48

 Take a round ground 3/8 chisel chain, sharpen it with a 5/32 file, if done right it will cut with the square chisel chain.
I believe a man can do just as good as any jig, when he learns the dew's and don'ts of sharping it.







Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Real1shepherd

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more. It will not cut as good in decent timber, or we would have been onto that 35+ yrs ago. If you take a hand filed, square-file chisel Chain to a Silvey grinder, you'll appreciate how humble your efforts were....no comparison. Sure you can hand file it sharp and it will work, but it leagues behind what the grinder can do. 3/8 round file chain is a different animal and much, much easier to work with.

Kevin

Dave Shepard

I can hand file square chisel chain quute well, thank you very much. Keep in mind that what you are saying is just your opinion. I can see the value in squaring up a sq. chain if it has been rocked on a grinder, but I have no interest in having most of my chain life ending up on the saw shop floor.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Real1shepherd

Yeah it is just an opinion and not meant to be an absolute. But, I've looked at a LOT of hand-filed-on-the-job square chisel chain and I wasn't impressed. If you use a Silvey right, not overheat the cutters and take as little as you can off, IMO that's the best sharpening job I've seen. Obviously if you can keep your chain decently sharp by hand, the near grand or so to get a Silvey machine set up would seem ridiculous.

Kevin 

bandmiller2

Ground chains have got a bad rap mostly from the pimple faced kid at the hardware store that hogs off half the cutter in a wack. Industry grinds cutting edges, you ether take light cuts or use coolant. Files are cheap and handy but the chain cutters are "dumbed down" to a hardness files can handle. This debate is like the oil wars, do as you please. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Real1shepherd

^ +1

It's the operator of the Silvey that determines how much comes off the cutter....it's not indicative of using a grinder. But I'm new here and didn't mean to start a 'what's the best oil?' type argument. I've said all I wanna say about square-file chisel chain. So as was said, do as you want.

Kevin 

Oliver1655

Most of the wood I cut is relatively clean so I prefer square filed full chisel chains.  There are several folks I know who also sucessfully hand file square chisel chain using a double beveled file.  Most do a very good job at it.  Yes there is a definite learning curve involved.  If you are wanting to learn how, there is a lot of great information & photos on the following thread: 

http://firewoodhoardersclub.com/forums/threads/square-filing-chains.5670/page-30#post-350801

A large number of the folks who hand file use Oregon chain.  While Stihl chain seems to hold an edge longer, you will find teeth with hard spots which will easily ruin the file.  This said, I use Stihl chain.  If you want 3/8" lo-pro/picco full chisel chain, Stihl PS-1 is available.  PS-3 is also a full chisel chain but is a "safety chain with extra bumpers which makes it a pain to bore cut with.
John

Stihl S-08s (x2), Stihl S10 (x2), Jonsered CS2139T, Husqvarna 338XPT California, Poulan Microvibe XXV, Poulan WoodShark, Poulan Pro 42cc, McCulloch Mini-Mac 6 (x2), Van Ruder Hydraulic Tractor Chainsaw

ely

I had never heard of a square filed chain before today... I always use the chisel chain and it files with a round file. learn something new each day.

HolmenTree

John (oliver1655)
Thanks for posting that great informative site.
I never heard of the Firewood Hoarders Club before.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

bandmiller2

You can convert round chisel chain to square chisel and the inverse just looks a little funky for a couple of sharpenings. If you have never tried it order one square ground chisel chain and try it, you can always change it back to round. If you buy a round of beers for guys that can really hand file square ground chisel you won't be out much money. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

ely

now that you say that.... I have seen it before.. the last chain at work that we bought was square cut, because when I filed it I noticed something was different about it. it filed out in a few tanks of fuel though.

Grandedog

     Howdy,
   When the chain is square ground at the factory, there's more tooth left than when they round grind it. If you find square ground for the same price as round, it's a better deal because there's at least a few extra sharpening's there. Just use your round file.
Regards
Gregg
Gregg Grande
Left Coast Supplies LLC
1615B South Main Street  Willits, CA 95490
888-995-7307  Ph 707-602-0141                   Fax 707-602-0134  Cell 707-354-3212
E-Mail  gregg@leftcoastsupplies.com   www.leftcoastsupplies.com

Real1shepherd

^ +1 That's true and the guys can then round file it if they want.

Kevin

John Mc

Quote from: Grandedog on August 26, 2015, 02:47:42 PM
     Howdy,
   When the chain is square ground at the factory, there's more tooth left than when they round grind it. If you find square ground for the same price as round, it's a better deal because there's at least a few extra sharpening's there. Just use your round file.

I hadn't thought of that. It's also a great way to try out square ground and see if the trade off between better cutting speed and less tolerance for dirty cutting conditions is one that works for you.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Real1shepherd

Quote from: John Mc on August 27, 2015, 12:11:39 PM
Quote from: Grandedog on August 26, 2015, 02:47:42 PM
     Howdy,
   When the chain is square ground at the factory, there's more tooth left than when they round grind it. If you find square ground for the same price as round, it's a better deal because there's at least a few extra sharpening's there. Just use your round file.

I hadn't thought of that. It's also a great way to try out square ground and see if the trade off between better cutting speed and less tolerance for dirty cutting conditions is one that works for you.

"Dirty conditions" and square-file chisel chain crapping out on ya is highly overstated. Sure, if you've got insect infestation and they've brought a lot of dirt up in an aging tree. Other than that, the chain does fine in everyday cutting situations. Now if your logs were skidded through the dirt or they've been rolled in the dirt somehow, that would be bad. I don't know cutting conditions in the rest of the country, but if your logs are really dirty, probably better to try another type chain than square-file. Really easy to sharpen skip-tooth though, even on a long bar.

My biggest problem around here are rocks. And especially the land owners that want me to cut down in a river or creek bed when the water is low. I've got a chain right now that was new and got rock chipped. It's beyond my jig and will have to be trued up on a grinder. But none of the shops grind square-file chisel around here anymore. They just take it and round grind it.

Kevin


bandmiller2

I know I'am preaching to the faithfull  but the whole secret to long chain life is to keep the tip out of the dirt and away from stones and hardware. Most of the bad rap grinders have gotten is from rocked or unevenly filed chains where a lot of tooth must be ground away to even and sharpen. I have enjoyed very long life from my chains usually able to just kiss the cutter with the wheel to put an edge back. I sharpen before the chain is dull, when I file I seldom take more than two strokes. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

John Mc

Quote from: bandmiller2 on September 08, 2015, 09:05:17 PM
... Most of the bad rap grinders have gotten is from rocked or unevenly filed chains where a lot of tooth must be ground away to even and sharpen.

Well, maybe that and the hardware store flunky whose sole training on the grinder consisted of a few minutes of show-and-tell from an equally unskilled store employee.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

49er

I can square file, although I am sure I am not the best at it. The largest reason I don't sq. file is the cost of the files. $13 last time I checked. I have been accused of being cheap but thrifty is a better word. :)
Husqvarna EC390 365xt
Jonsered 2188 2165 2260 2253 70e
Redmax GZ4000

lumberjack48

Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Texas-Jim

I have found that most problems you have with a grinder is the person not understanding what heck hes doing. There is as much a learning curve with a grinder as with a file. In either case you need training not 5 minutes watching bob from next door. No offense if theres a Bob here. Grinders main advantage is repeatable precision, now that can be done by hand with a LOT of practice. But my experience from the ones that claim they can do as well as a grinder are not in any way as good.  I do have a customer that can and does sharpen with a file and he is amazing at it, no idea how he does it, iv watched and cant repeat it like him. I have four rules,
1--take exactly what you need and no more, evenly from both sides,
2--pay attention to rakers, cause no matter how perfect it is if it cant bite it wont cut,
3--dress your stone, i do it every other chain. Had a guy did sharpening for years and never knew he was supposed to shape the grinders wheel.
4--be gentle, i use a couple light touches, dont cram it into the chain, it gets it hot and air cooling hard steel softens it.

my opinion for what its worth
What we do in life echoes through eternity.

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