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Can I brag on the older generation?

Started by Dixiebonsai, August 18, 2015, 04:01:13 PM

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Dixiebonsai

 I'm in my 50's, just been cutting wood a few years because I built a house with a fireplace.I have been mostly cutting up deadfalls, not crazy about cutting live trees.So I haven't done much felling. Deadfalls, as you all know ,are much less hazardous too.
My neighbor , who is in his mid to late 60's has been cutting all his life.I have learned so much about woodcutting and chainsaws from him.
Today I went down there to drop a standing dead Shag Bark Hickory on his property line, with him supervising.First of all I read the tree wrong on the way it wanted to fall.He corrected me.Secondly and the most irritating thing to me is I sharpened and sharpened on my chain before going down there.As soon as I started into the tree I could tell the saw wasn't sharp and it was going to work me to death.I try real hard to learn that art but it is an art.He sharpened on it a little with my file, told me Oregon file was Chinese crap and went and got his.In just a few minutes with his knowledge and his old school file I was cutting like a hot knife through butter. it was throwing chunks.I keep trying.I don't want the new gadgets to do sharpening because they aren't woods friendly.So I keep trying.
It is a shame these older gentlemen with their woodsmen knowledge are leaving us a little at a time. I try and get as much knowledge from them as I can before they are gone.Maybe I can pass some along one day.

gspren

  It's always good to listen to the older guys but I've also been around some pretty sharp younger guys and some of them younger guys know how to use a file also. Don't be too quick to discount the next generation, one time we were the next generation.
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Ozarker

I have a friend who's in his late eighties. Began logging in the 30s, with his father, back when it was all cross-cuts, wedges, sledges, and mules. They hacked ties and split stave bolts, mostly. After the war, he got a chainsaw, a Mall two-man, only he carried it by himself. Said it weighed 98 pounds empty, but held a gallon of gas and a quart of oil. Then, all he was cutting for was stave bolts, which he still had to split with a sledge and wedge. He's just full of information, and is always willing to share. There's not an ounce of BS about him, though he's pretty darn funny when he wants to be. I've learned so much from him, about many things, over the years. He's a treasure in my life.

weimedog

Quote from: Dixiebonsai on August 18, 2015, 04:01:13 PM
I'm in my 50's, just been cutting wood a few years because I built a house with a fireplace.I have been mostly cutting up deadfalls, not crazy about cutting live trees.So I haven't done much felling. Deadfalls, as you all know ,are much less hazardous too.
My neighbor , who is in his mid to late 60's has been cutting all his life.I have learned so much about woodcutting and chainsaws from him.
Today I went down there to drop a standing dead Shag Bark Hickory on his property line, with him supervising.First of all I read the tree wrong on the way it wanted to fall.He corrected me.Secondly and the most irritating thing to me is I sharpened and sharpened on my chain before going down there.As soon as I started into the tree I could tell the saw wasn't sharp and it was going to work me to death.I try real hard to learn that art but it is an art.He sharpened on it a little with my file, told me Oregon file was Chinese crap and went and got his.In just a few minutes with his knowledge and his old school file I was cutting like a hot knife through butter. it was throwing chunks.I keep trying.I don't want the new gadgets to do sharpening because they aren't woods friendly.So I keep trying.
It is a shame these older gentlemen with their woodsmen knowledge are leaving us a little at a time. I try and get as much knowledge from them as I can before they are gone.Maybe I can pass some along one day.

Yup
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thecfarm

Sharpening a chain on a chainsaw is an act. But sharpening anything is an act too. My Father could sharpen ANYTHING. He did not pass that gene onto his son.  :( BUT my Father grew up in the cross cut and bucksaw age. Either you learned or worked your butt off all day for no reason. I finally sat down with a log,a chainsaw,a file and a tank full of gas in a saw and I figured out what I was doing wrong.
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Pine Ridge

My dad was 52 when i was born, he would be almost 100 years old now, he passed away in 2001. He logged throughout his life, i have many of the older guys around here that knew him tell me stories about him cutting timber and logging with him. Dad walked with a cane when i was young, a car accident in the 1960s had messed up his hip badly, when i got around 14 or so he became bedfast because of the hip and arthritis. I got to go to the log woods with him when i was really young, but i wasn't old or big enough to do any work, and i can't remember much about it. Many times nowdays when i'm eating lunch in the woods on my parttime weekend logging job, i think of him and how bad he wanted to get out of that bed and go teach me how to cut timber and all the things about logging. I think we would have made a good team, and i hope i would make him proud.
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Real1shepherd

Quote from: gspren on August 18, 2015, 05:19:19 PM
  It's always good to listen to the older guys but I've also been around some pretty sharp younger guys and some of them younger guys know how to use a file also. Don't be too quick to discount the next generation, one time we were the next generation.

This is very typical of younger guys who think they reinvent the wheel or have a better way. I was in my 20's when I started loggin' and thought I knew and could do most anything. The reflexes were there and the mind was sharp sure, but looking back if I had listened more to the older, experienced guys, life would have been a lot easier. But I was hard-headed and I learned the hard way....by my mistakes and unnecessary drudgery...especially with regard to chisel chain, saw maintenance and fallin' techniques. There is no substitute for experience. The best thing a younger guy can do(if he survives), is come to the same fork in the road of wisdom as an older guy did many yrs prior.....which is stupid and time consuming when you have people that have been there and will make your life so much easier in the woods.

Kevin

HolmenTree

I always remember the words of the veterans that I fell timber alongside a strip over in my early years. Things like " Never fight the wind, make it your friend even if you have to start another face on your strip."

When I did start to take that advice I had energy to go out fishing after supper. Rather then sit in the camp rec hall and watch TV :D 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

square1

I'm old, that doesn't make me wise.  I know members of the older generation that have been using a chainsaw "all their life" and am amazed they made it to "old".  I also know some young folk I wouldn't let hold a chainsaw with no chain on the bar and no spark plug in the head for fear they would seriously hurt themselves or others.

Watch a few You Tube chainsaw clips and you will see old and young exhibiting extremely dangerous ignorance.  You will see more young, likely because they are more apt to post to You Tube.

It's not a person's age that makes the difference.

HolmenTree

I remember my first years logging in the mid 1970's. We started to have monthly safety meetings at our logging camps and I remember the transition to greater safety at that time.
Eye, hearing ,leg and foot protection was starting to be enforced. Chain brakes and safety bar tips and chain was also being tested.
At that time I remember  a small group of seasoned veterans  some in their 70's who stood up and complained loudly about being blinded with the screens and glasses, being deafened with muffs or ear plugs. Then when the chain brakes were enforced then you heard some screaming. :D
But the old guys had their time in their younger years but what was coming they were not ready for. Skidders and chainsaws were getting faster and more productive and the companies scope for production was much higher.
The younger generation loggers had to adapt and all this safety was a neccessity. Thankfully I was part of that group and today at 57 I'm still able to make a living with a chainsaw......with a little bit of tree climbing thrown in. ;D
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Real1shepherd

Quote from: square1 on August 23, 2015, 06:00:00 AM
I'm old, that doesn't make me wise.  I know members of the older generation that have been using a chainsaw "all their life" and am amazed they made it to "old".  I also know some young folk I wouldn't let hold a chainsaw with no chain on the bar and no spark plug in the head for fear they would seriously hurt themselves or others.

Watch a few You Tube chainsaw clips and you will see old and young exhibiting extremely dangerous ignorance.  You will see more young, likely because they are more apt to post to You Tube.

It's not a person's age that makes the difference.

That's true enough, but the preponderance of old farts like myself that have survived loggin' usually have developed sound skills over time or listened to the old farts when we were young. I agree on the youtube vids....I was watching this vid of a seasoned faller and he did everything OK except as the tree started to fall, he turned his back on it and ran....now that's just stupid. You only look fwd enough so you don't trip, but keep your eyes on the tree until it stops moving...always. And I'm not even going to get into the lack of holding wood and stump shot that present fallers do....proud of it too.

There's always exceptions to the rule...some guys survive and thrive on a lifetime of dangerous ignorance. But as a experienced woods teacher, I tried to make sure the young guys have had at least the basics in safety skills taught. Most of them listen well enough and the ones that don't screw 'em....that's a pattern they've developed and you're not likely to change it.

Usually, the natural progression on a show was to start in the riggin' and for a yr or so, you saw what trees and logs were capable of. Then you picked the job most suited for you like on the skidder or becoming a faller etc. Without learning the respect for the dangers involved, you just put yourself more at risk. And with nepotism in OR and WA being what it was, it was really tough for me to find an old faller that would take me in and teach me the trade. But I did it and I'm greatful I held out for that...

Kevin

Real1shepherd

Quote from: HolmenTree on August 23, 2015, 08:17:58 AM
I remember my first years logging in the mid 1970's. We started to have monthly safety meetings at our logging camps and I remember the transition to greater safety at that time.
Eye, hearing ,leg and foot protection was starting to be enforced. Chain brakes and safety bar tips and chain was also being tested.
At that time I remember  a small group of seasoned veterans  some in their 70's who stood up and complained loudly about being blinded with the screens and glasses, being deafened with muffs or ear plugs. Then when the chain brakes were enforced then you heard some screaming. :D
But the old guys had their time in their younger years but what was coming they were not ready for. Skidders and chainsaws were getting faster and more productive and the companies scope for production was much higher.
The younger generation loggers had to adapt and all this safety was a neccessity. Thankfully I was part of that group and today at 57 I'm still able to make a living with a chainsaw......with a little bit of tree climbing thrown in. ;D

Yeah, I got into an argument with a well known character on another site...his contention was that Homelite & Mac pro saws took down more scale than any other pro saws in the PNW. I conceded that they probably took more OG Fir only because it was still available, but saws like the Husky 2100 took down more total scale. By the late 70's the loggin' shows were so huge and wood product demand so enormous in places like the SW, the industry had evolved to its peak, not when he was taking OG routinely. More machinery, more saws, more people in the woods of every description, more log trucks and mills runnin' around the clock etc trying to keep up with demand.

Kevin

mad murdock

Welcome real1shepard.  To the OP-deadfalls can be plenty dangerous in their own right. You never know if it will jold together all the way to the ground, or if a big widowmaker will come off early on and bonk a guy on the head. I think as. Far as total scale is concerned,, an aweful lot of timber has been taken with an axe and misery whip, hauled by oxen team or steam donk. Itis staggering to see clips of some of the early logging shows and how fast they could move wood "back in the day"!  Back to the OP- a good file guide can teach uou the skill to hand file a chain.  Bought a good almost new oregon file guuide at a used store a while back for 2 bucks. There are deals out there. You can learn a lot st any age, if you are willing to listen. Also places like the Forestry Forum are treasures of knowledge that were not available when i first started in the woods in the late70's.
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Real1shepherd

Quote from: mad murdock on August 23, 2015, 09:15:33 PM
Welcome real1shepard.  To the OP-deadfalls can be plenty dangerous in their own right. You never know if it will jold together all the way to the ground, or if a big widowmaker will come off early on and bonk a guy on the head. I think as. Far as total scale is concerned,, an aweful lot of timber has been taken with an axe and misery whip, hauled by oxen team or steam donk. Itis staggering to see clips of some of the early logging shows and how fast they could move wood "back in the day"!  Back to the OP- a good file guide can teach uou the skill to hand file a chain.  Bought a good almost new oregon file guuide at a used store a while back for 2 bucks. There are deals out there. You can learn a lot st any age, if you are willing to listen. Also places like the Forestry Forum are treasures of knowledge that were not available when i first started in the woods in the late70's.

Thank you. I remember the first week on the site and this bull bucker came up to me and asked if I knew what a conk was, then slammed his fist down hard on the top of my hard hat. I backed up a step ready to fight and he laughed...he said, "That's a conk!". A lot of crap in those great trees that comes raining down at the slightest provocation. Conks, widow makers, mistletoe...whatever you want to call them. Strangely enough, I got 'conked' finally in CO by a widow maker. Knocked me out and dented the hard hat to my skull. I left some of the dent in it to remind me. 

Those old Grandberg file 'n joints for chisel chain are great teachers for setting up all your angles. Grab one if you ever see one. They used to turn up occasionally on eBay, but went for $40-$100.

Yeah, I bought all those B&W video tapes Bailey's used  to sell of old-time loggin'. It is mind boggling how much timber they took down with what they had to work with. Some of that stuff was just an accident waiting to happen...all those long belts with no guards driving machinery...lol. But then mechanized farming was just as dangerous then.

Snags are potential killers, no one likes to take them down and they're often very unpredictable with little if any live wood. We hated taking them...I suppose everyone did.

When I think of the wealth of knowledge out there are your finger tips now, it blows my mind. We had a few saw magazines, word of mouth and the library...lol.

Kevin

pineywoods

I guess I qualify as one of the "older generation" experienced, yeah, but remember most experience is the result of stupid mistakes. I try to learn from other's stupid mistakes when I can. In defence of the younger generation, there's some fine ones coming along. I spent a few days last week teaching a neighbors bright young 14 year old grandson how to use power tools. He's already making his own baseball bats, that is when he isn't working with his grandpa skidding blowdown timber. He learns quickly and well.
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Real1shepherd

Absolutely and I don't want to discount a smart kid. There are a lot of them that can wean themselves away from their electronic devices and put in a hard day's work in the woods. It's a pleasure to teach those kids and every generation has them. They don't seem to last on the shows like they used to....i suspect they find something else less strenuous and safer. I don't blame them, really...being a logger doesn't get you the respect you deserve for the work that you do. I quit because I only worked for gypos and I got tired of chasing my money down every Friday late and the excuses given. And there were many times I got cheated on my scale.

I used to watch that show Axe Men and there was that middle aged faller in OR/WA(don't remember which), that worked for that one loggin' show....I think his son worked with him. Best job in the world and he was a complaining prima donna. I never could understand what he was so pissy about...I think he might have been an alcoholic, I dunno. I had to quit watching the show because that Cajun guy down south drove me crazy....I think he even got bit by a water moccasin and survived.

Kevin

Ada Shaker

I think most of us can brag about the older generation.
I did my apprenticeship in the railways and back in those days, a good part of it was knowing how to file (tool steel in general) by hand.
It often took days of filing & scraping to get a true blue reading of within 0.05mm of flatness and squareness on all sides. Eventually these hunks of steel became engineering squares, clamps and other tooling devices we personally used in the coarse of our trade. It gave us an appreciation of how things were done prior to precision machines, and an incite to how old timers used to do things.
Cutting a long story short their used to be an old timer in the workshop who used to make his own knives. We'd come in the morning and had to open all the windows because the place stunk, god only knows, he'd be cooking dem bones again for turning them into knife handles. On his spare time he'd be there making knives but i tell you what, this bloke could also really sharpen an axe, so much so, that one could fell a tree quicker with one of those axes than a chainsaw, those chunky wedges that flew off a tree i had to cut were amazing. So when you consider the amount of work a really sharp axe in the hands of a burly old bloke can do, the mind only boggles.
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WV Mountaineer

Knowledge is where you find it.  And, you will find it if you seek it and are willing to accept it when you find it.

My dad is 65.  He is just like most other 65 year old men.  He is smart in ways and unlike most 65 year old men, he still works physically hard everyday of the week driving nails, masonry work, roofing, etc....  He s wise beyond my generation in a lot of ways in his specialty.  He sets trusses by himself, builds decks and such by himself.  I always wander how he handles those 16' 2 by's held up on the other end but, he manages somehow.

I'm a little over half his age and, when it comes to the woods, I keep him wandering how I cruise 150 acres a day on a 5 by 5 plot spacing or, how I get my chainsaw so sharp, etc.....  Knowledge is where you find it.

You say you just started cutting wood.  That means you likely haven't spent much time in the woods or, at a career that had you in the woods every day.  Your friend has the time invested in your new interest.  His knowledge is what he has experienced and vice versa.

I have all the respect in the world for older generations.  Especially those that share my interest.  I look to them when I am unsure of things.  And, I find what I need.  Not because they are older.  Because they posses the wisdom I seek.

No harm meant towards shepard but, that was a one sided statement your post portrayed.  Completely ignorant of the reality that age defines nothing but age.  Experience defines knowledge.  And, while that comes with age a lot of times, it isn't the defining variable.   Don't be offended by the younger generation that has to learn from themselves.  It takes experiencing some things to determine which way is best sometimes. And, it is often found out that older is not always better.  God Bless
Trying to live for the Lord, spend all the time I got with family, friends, hunting, fishing, and just enjoying my blessings.

Real1shepherd

Mountaineer, if you read my post and got that bit of non-wisdom out of it, you should read it again.....and then again. In no way is it railing the entire younger generation...there are plenty willing to learn. But when you think you already know because you've survived a yr or two in the woods, you really don't know much yet. And this doesn't exclude the folks that learned wrong in the beginning and kept making the same mistakes for 45 more yrs. I've certainly seen my share of that too.

The problem with being a stubborn knot-head in the woods and trying to 'learn from your mistakes' is that you're putting yourself at very HIGH risk and to others as well. You can't tough out trees & logs, they will kill/maim you every time in that contest. My post was more a cautionary tale than anything. When you work for a decent loggin' show, there's a definite pecking order and a long list of do's and don'ts. There's a reason for that and it's steeped in blood mixed with death. Ignoring advice from a seasoned pro and you've increased your chance of dying 10 fold.

Kevin   

WV Mountaineer

I'm not known for wisdom sometimes.  So, you might be right.  But, wise or not on my part, I think if you read my post clearly, you would see we might not disagree much or, any at all.  We just didn't understand what the other was trying to communicate initially.  Because we didn't read the whole thread or, took issue with the other's statements.   Besides, I have zero inclination to further disagree with anyone based on what we assume the other person meant or a cautionary tale.  So, we will just have to say it was a matter of misunderstanding on both parts and, leave it at that.  I think we can agree that it would be the wisest thing to do.  ;D


God Bless all you men.     
Trying to live for the Lord, spend all the time I got with family, friends, hunting, fishing, and just enjoying my blessings.

Real1shepherd

You used the term "ignorant" when you referred to my posting. And then you sugar coat your reply with "God bless" at the end. In my book that deserved some sort of comment/comeback for the cheap shot that it was and now you think you're controlling the inevitable direction/conclusion of this conversation....I don't think so. But you're right about one thing, this has gone as far as it's going to and you're not going to bully me with faux platitudes.

Kevin

Jeff

I wish Tom were here. Tom was one of our older members (not that much older though) that had a high regard for his older friends, just like I do.  I wish Tom was here. I miss him tremendously. I wish he were here to use his years of experience and his writing eloquence to say the things that might need to be said on this topic. But he is not. I am. So, lacking the added years and experience he had on me to be able to gently guide this topic back to where it started I must say...

Knock it the hell off.
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nitehawk55

I always say being older and still remembering is a good thing :D
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49er

Dixiebonsai, turn around a few times and you Will be the old guy.
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petefrom bearswamp

State of NY DEC now requires that all harvesters working on state land take the game of logging course.
I remember a few older loggers poo pooing the course but after taking it realizing that there is plenty of merit to the methods taught.
Never too old to learn.
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