My 8x12 Shed/Workshop Project

[kristingreen]

I've just joined this board and I've been doing a lot of reading in this area so I thought I would contribute by sharing my project. I'm always looking to bounce ideas off others and to explore all options so please give me your thoughts a feedback.

I've been doing a fair bit of research on timber framing and I'm finding it very fascinating. I'd love to take one of those courses or just start building a cabin in the woods somewhere... however, more realistically, I'm going to start small... really small.

I've also been getting into woodworking. I've started collecting a bunch of tools and learning as I go in my garage, but my garage is a small, one car garage, and with all the normal garage stuff, my tools tend to get lost and my benches get filled. Between the multiple storage bins, kids toys, recycling and garbage bins, bikes for the kids, and my motorcycle, there isn't much room left for a workshop. (I'm going to try and attach a photo just for fun)

 
This is my garage on a good day.

My solution: Build a 'shed' and call it my workshop. 8' x 12' is just under the maximum allowed size before I need to get a building permit in my area. I was originally going to put it in my back yard (which would have taken up a third of the yard) but my in-laws have donated a small spot in the corner of  their 10 acre property so I've recently changed plans.

[kristingreen]

I had to run my plans past the CFO in order to get a budget. She said ok, but my budget is $1000. That means, no big timbers, and everything needs to be built out of easy to source, inexpensive building materials.

I began by researching and coming up with designs. I had grand visions of 8" posts and beams, with sills, headers, rafters, braces, etc... (I literally dreamt of pounding in pegs and raising bents)... and then I went to the lumber yard and all that come to an end pretty quickly.

It turns out that in southern Ontario, no one carries anything larger than 4x4 unless it's pressure treated. Even finding some spruce 4x4's was difficult enough so I've decided to build my shed out of them and some 1x12 barn boards. At about $0.75/LF for both, I should be able to come in under budget.

[kristingreen]

My plan thus far is to half-lap the 4x4's into a basic frame with pine barn boards for the floor, siding and roof. I'll use pressure treated 6x6 for the corner posts because that's the only way I can get lumber that large.

I still haven't decided what to do for the roof. I would like a gambrel roof for the extra storage space that it will provide. With no ridge beam, I should be able to half-lap the rafters and tie them together with the horizontal barn boards. Then, I'm considering cedar shingles for the lower half and perhaps a clear polycarbonate for the top half as sort of a poor-man's sky light.

 

[kristingreen]

I'll start with the foundation. I've got a bunch of cinder blocks and I've levelled my building site. I plan on using six blocks... three on each side... just to get the frame up off the ground. The ground is very dry, hard packed dirt with bed rock not too far beneath so I'm not worried about shifting or heaving.

Someone told me that cinder blocks will be crushed and break if I lay them on their sides. Can anyone else speak to that? I can set them upright but it raises the entire structure up a bit more than I wanted.

I've picked up some pressure treated 4x4's for the foundation. (2) 4x4x12' for the long sides and (7) 4x4x8' for the joists and short sides. I'm going to half-lap them together this weekend and square and level before bringing in the flooring. Half-lapping the corners... and then half-lapping the joists to the long sides.

Does anyone think that this frame will not be strong enough? Should I double up the 4x4's around the perimeter? Will half-lapping the 4x4's reduce the strength too much or am I over-thinking things?

[kristingreen]

I didn't want to use any pressure treated wood but I've had to compromise on this. First, we just got MicroPro here in Canada a couple of years ago and my research eased my concerns about working and living with this material. Second, as I said earlier, I have not been able to find anyone who can sell me anything larger than 4x4 unless it's pressure treated and if I want 6x6 for the corner posts, I really don't have much of a choice. (And cedar is too soft and too expensive)

My choice to use pressure treated was based on a combination of few things. First, there is only one place that I can get the 4x4 spruce that I've based my design on, and they are far away. I still plan on doing a big haul but I was anxious to get started and Home Depot is just down the road. Also, I've been warned about the potential of rot. The thought was to use pressure treated for the foundation in order to protect against this... but then use non-pressure treated for the rest (except the corner posts mentioned above). Any comments on this point would be appreciated.

Someone also told me not to use the pine barn boards for the floor. They were concerned that the floor would rot if I didn't use pressure treated wood. I could use 1x6" fence boards, 5/4x6" decking, or PT plywood (yuck!) but I really had my heart set on pine boards. What do you think? If the ground is dry and the foundation provides lots of air flow, should I still be concerned about rot?

[Brian_Weekley]

It turns out that in southern Ontario, no one carries anything larger than 4x4 unless it's pressure treated. Even finding some spruce 4x4's was difficult enough so I've decided to build my shed out of them and some 1x12 barn boards.

Welcome to the forum--it's a great resource.  Regarding finding larger timbers--you're not going to find them at a home center.  You need to find yourself a real sawmill.  They will cut any size you need and the cost per board foot should also be less expensive than a consumer lumber yard.  Try looking at something like Craigslist too.  You might find small sawyers offering their services to cut wood sizes you want.

[kristingreen]

I knew better than to look for this at HD or Lowes so I've tried lumber yards... But even they look at me like I've got two heads. My search for a local saw mill has turned up nothing so far but I'll keep looking. Thanks!

[Jim_Rogers]

There are sites where you can "find a sawyer" this is one of them. Do a search here for one. If you can find one call or email them and ask about timbers.

Another site is woodmizer.com they have a sawyer referral program. They maybe able to help you find one not too far from you.

Good luck with your project.
If you want pine boards for a floor then put them in.
You could treat the bottom side of them with some "fence post paint" that my retard the rot.

Jim Rogers

[kristingreen]

I've picked up some pressure treated 4x4's for the foundation. (2) 4x4x12' for the long sides and (7) 4x4x8' for the joists and short sides. I'm going to half-lap them together this weekend and square and level before bringing in the flooring. Half-lapping the corners... and then half-lapping the joists to the long sides.

Here's an update on the project. I thought that I'd share my progress on this.

btw... although this project shares some elements of timber framing construction and I hope to explore some alternatives to standard shed design and building materials, I realize that this may not qualify for the forum to which I've posted. The moderators are welcome to move this into another area if they feel that it's in the wrong place.


This is my setup for creating the half lap on the ends of the joists. I clamped them altogether and made multiple passes with the circular saw before using my hammer and chisel to remove the bullk and clean up the mess.


My father-in-law is 80-something and doesn't talk much but when he saw what I was doing he came out with his ancient chisel set and started helping.


Here are the two 12' 4x4's laid out after I cut the notches.


This is the foundational frame laid out and ready for floor boards. Still wondering about the cinder blocks. Should I use more? Will there be an issue if I lay them on their sides like that?

[Jim_Rogers]

Will there be an issue if I lay them on their sides like that?

Ask a mason or the place where you bought them. Or a concrete block manufacturing company.

There are answers out there, somewhere.

Jim Rogers

[Brian_Weekley]

I like the way you mass cut all of your half-lap joints!

The higher you keep the wood off the ground, the better it will be to help prevent rot.  I'd place the blocks the correct way up.  If it's a little higher than you want, add a step or ramp at the door.  Alternatively, you could use solid cinderblocks instead.

If you're only using 4x4s (3.5 x 3.5?) for your sills, you've only got 1.75 inches of wood at those half-lap joints.  I'd really be concerned about your sills (or joists) cracking at those locations without support.  You might want to consider adding a block under the sill at every location where the joists connect.

Good start on your project.

[Warped]

     I put my blocks with webbing up. Only concern was possible sinking, so I put down crushed stone and excavated down a little to keep the height I desired.       
     Floor system is all untreated dimensional lumber and 3/4 plywood floor and after nearly 20 years there is no sign of decay, and my yard is pretty wet. My only concern was frost heave......tbh I have to lift up on my door to make the latch catch (it's an actual locking door knob in a fifteen light panel interior pine door), been too lazy to throw a floor jack under it to line it back up.
     My zoning requires a permit after 150 sq. ft., so I'm framing my new shed 10X16.......I'll just tell'em "Oh, I thought you meant interior square footage"! 8)
Ya pretty much do what ya want in my neck of the woods.......
Good luck!

[Warped]

I'd also use plywood gussets screwed and glued and basic butt joints for gambrel roof rafters, but if you enjoy using fancy joinery I can't knock that. That's half the fun and nothing better than a shed to practice on!

[thecfarm]

Warped,welcome to the forum. I put my blocks the same way you did for a woman cave I built. Not like there is 40,000 pounds on it. And I put one in every 3-4 feet too. Than I ran a beam down the middle and put some more in there too. But I have no idea if all this thinking will come back to haunt me in 10 years either.  ;D

[Bricklayer51]

Fill the cores with mortor or cement let it set up good to go

[pineywoods]

Down here in the sunny south, you better put them concrete blocks, flat side against the ground, I learned the hard way. With the hollow vertical, mr termite will build a mud tube up the inside of the block to gain access to your building. You can't see the tubes and won't know they are there until there's major damage.

[kristingreen]

I like the way you mass cut all of your half-lap joints!

The higher you keep the wood off the ground, the better it will be to help prevent rot.  I'd place the blocks the correct way up.  If it's a little higher than you want, add a step or ramp at the door.  Alternatively, you could use solid cinderblocks instead.

If you're only using 4x4s (3.5 x 3.5?) for your sills, you've only got 1.75 inches of wood at those half-lap joints.  I'd really be concerned about your sills (or joists) cracking at those locations without support.  You might want to consider adding a block under the sill at every location where the joists connect.

Good start on your project.

Thanks Brian!

Good advice about placing more cinder blocks. I've got a bunch of them left over from a previous project so I think that I might just fill in the gaps with more blocks just to be sure. I also think that I'll place them the correct way up... just to be sure. There is no chance that they will sink into the ground as the bedrock is exposed in some places and it just below the surface.

[sawmilllawyer]

Good move on putting more blocks down, better safe than sorry. Workmanship on the joints appears to be good.  This should turn out to be a pretty good shed for your needs. Enjoy following this thread. Keep it coming.

[kristingreen]

Thanks to Jim for recommending that I use the Wood-Mizer Sawyer referral system!

WM owners are few and far between in this area but I found one not too far away and reached out. Turns out that he doesn't really sell lumber but uses his WM to saw logs onsite for property owners. However, he tells me that he's got a bunch of cedar 4x4's for cheap!

This is great news and means that I won't have to use PT wood for the corner posts. The only thing that I'm worried about is strength as cedar is very soft.

[thecfarm]

Cedar should do fine with what you want. I used some on the Women Cave,never even gave it a thought about letting me down. Yes,it is soft with a sudden jolt. Drop a 1000 pound log on it and it will snap in two. But a steady strain is fine.

[kristingreen]

I've had to take a step back on my project. I haven't been able to spend as much time as I wanted so things are progressing slowly... but more importantly, the fellow that I met with the Wood Mizer has presented me with new options that I never thought possible... which has made me question my design.

I also went back to the lumber yard and found that they'd almost doubled the price of some of the wood that I'd priced out 2 months ago and I was informed that they won't allow me to pick and choose which stock I want. I looked at their stock and although about 3/4 of it looks good, the rest are horrible.

So back to my local sawyer, I go. My original design challenge to myself was to design my workshop based on what was locally available and relatively inexpensive. My materials were limited to big box hardware stores and commercial lumber yards but with this new source, I've had to scrap my plans and start again. Which sucks given the fact that I already spent some money on those PT 4x4s (but that's ok, I'll use them for a deck).

My materials, based on what he has in stock, are cedar 6x6 posts; 2x6 (rough cut) spruce; and lots of 1-inch pine barn board in various widths. All cheaper than a lumber yard and served up with a smile.

I've attached a picture below of what my work site looks like now. I'll remove the 4x4 frame and start again using the 6x6 material for a proper timber frame construction. You can see the lovely pile of 2x6's  on the right that I just brought home.



 

This site is a great example of what I'm aiming for... http://centurytimbersheds.weebly.com/

Theirs is a bit bigger with some larger material but I'm hoping that I can substitute a little bit and use 6x6 for the posts and beams; 2x6 for the joists with 16" centres; 2x6 for the braces... does anyone see a problem with that plan?

I actually purchased the 2x6's for the floor but looking them, they dwarf the frame upon which I would lay them. That made me wish that I'd used the 6-inch material for the sills.

My question today is about the floor. If I redesign everything with the 6-inch cedar for the posts and beams, and I use the 2x6's for the floor joists every 16-inches, can I get away with using 1-inch pine for the floor? Or should I stick with the 2x6 material that I already purchased? It's just that the 2x6 is a true 2-inches thick which seems like over kill unless I'm spacing my joists 24-inches (my original plan).

What do most folks do for floors? What size do you use for your joists and how far apart do you space them? Do you vary the spacing based on your flooring?

[kristingreen]

 

[Warped]

That thing is rock solid.......personally, I'd have the 2x6's sliced to 1x6's and continue on, unless you're looking for appearance and parking something bigger than a tank in there......looks great.

[Warped]

After rereading, you already have 1x flooring, I'd store them for a future project? Roof decking? Siding?

[Warped]

    Also, I was going to address those unsupported half lap joints at the sill and see Brian already did. You may consider splitting those blocks in half to place a single core under every joist at the joint. A good mason does it with a chisel, but it is easily done with a masonry blade in a circular saw. Wear a dust mask or water it.

[kristingreen]

That thing is rock solid.......personally, I'd have the 2x6's sliced to 1x6's and continue on, unless you're looking for appearance and parking something bigger than a tank in there......looks great.

So, are you saying that 1-inch thick boards are good enough for the floor? The joists are 24 inches on centre. I was concerned about the flooring 'bouncing' too much.

As for the unsupported half-laps, as per my most recent posts, I'm planning on re-purposing that wood and starting again with 6-inch material and proper notches for the joists.

[Warped]

The wider the stiffer, 6" should be fine. Throw some down and jump up and down...... :D

[Brian_Weekley]

I think you would be better off going with the 6x6 sills.  If you tongue and grooved the 1x boards, it would really help stiffen the floor and you might get by with 16 inch joist spacing--but thicker is always better.

[Ljohnsaw]

So, are you saying that 1-inch thick boards are good enough for the floor? The joists are 24 inches on centre. I was concerned about the flooring 'bouncing' too much.

It also depends on what you are doing or storing in there.  If you are going to use it as a workshop (power tools), do you have a big, heavy table saw?  That would be a constant load that may bow the flooring down over time.  If you are just doing lite woodworking with hand tools, then 24" spacing and 1" flooring would probably do just fine.  In the whole scheme of things, adding a couple more joists shouldn't break the bank and will make for a better, stiffer floor, IMO.

[kristingreen]

Not sure if this warrants it's own thread but since it's related, I'll append it here. I started another thread in regards to my sill to corner post joints but I'm not sure what the protocol here is. Guidance from the moderator is appreciated.

I have 6x6 cedar posts and 2x6 spruce boards. The 6x6 is milled to 5.5" x 5.5" but the 2x6 is actually 2" x 5.5". With the design goal of using what I have readily available, I plan on using the 6x for the posts, sills and plates... and the 2x for the braces.

My question today is about dimensions. For the plate to post joints, I plan on using a shouldered mortise and tenon with a 1.5" tenon, shouldered 0.5" and 2" deep. I don't have 8" or 10" material so I have less to work with. Does anyone see any issues with these dimensions? Will the joints be strong enough?

As a side question, I reduced the length of the tenon on the plate by 0.5" and raised the shoulder on the post. This seems to be purely aesthetic but I see it being done in many projects. Can anyone tell me if there is a good reason for this?

For the braces, I plan on using the 2x6's with 1" thick tenons, shouldered by 0.5" and 2" deep. This leaves only 1" of material between the mortise and the outside of the post. Is this enough?

I've attached a scan of my chicken scratch below. Hopefully someone can figure it out. ;-)

[Brian_Weekley]

Your tenons are too short with not enough relish beyond the hole--they will break.  Make the tenon on that tie beam a "through tenon"--go all the way through the post.

[kristingreen]

Your tenons are too short with not enough relish beyond the hole--they will break.  Make the tenon on that tie beam a "through tenon"--go all the way through the post.

Good idea! I never considered it before but that makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

What about the braces? I was afraid of weakening the post if I went deeper.

[LaneC]

   Just started reading and good job. If I may make a suggestion, as pineywoods stated about termites, They make a piece of sheet metal that goes over the cinder blocks for a termite and bug preventer. They were cheap the last time I saw them, and in the future they may provide the insurance of no termites. They just sit on top of the cinder block, and stick out a small bit so the bugs cannot crawl and get to the wood. That is a nice project there and I wish you great success.

[Jim_Rogers]

A standard brace tenon is 3" long; from the shoulder.

Jim Rogers

[kristingreen]

I recognize that standard braces are 3" from the shoulder but I was hoping that I might be able to go a bit smaller given the reduced size of the timbers. If my posts are only 5.5" that only leaves 2.75" until I've reached centre. With a 0.5" shoulder, my tenons will only be 2.25" and can not be deeper since the wall posts will have braces on both sides.

I guess what I'm looking for is a consensus of whether or not traditional joinery is possible with 6x6 posts and 2x6 braces. If 2.25" tenons on my braces isn't going to create a strong enough joint, then I'll consider using screws instead of pegs... or abandon the M&T joint altogether and go with something else, like sort of a half lap with screws.

[Jim_Rogers]

To avoid tenon conflict in a post the two braces should be at different elevations.
Plates should sit higher then the tie beams.
If you can't do that make shorter braces so that the tenons won't touch inside the post.

Jim Rogers

[kristingreen]

Went out last weekend with the intension of using the 2x6's for the floor. This is a picture of me trying to come to terms with fact that rough cut lumber isn't all the same width... and how do you make a floor with lumber that is never as long as your floor but could be different widths? And no, I don't own a thickness planer. That would have solved the issue but they are expensive.

I had the idea of using my block plane to plane the edges of each board but the work load was huge. Looks like I'm going to have to visit the lumber yard for some dimensional lumber that is relatively guaranteed to be the same thickness... or at least as long as my floor.

[kristingreen]

The floor is done. Thirteen 2x8's later, it's done. Quick and simple. Next will be the sills and then I'll raise the frame. I'm going to use those rough cut 2x6's for the sills... since they'll be sitting on top of the floor and there is already a 4x4 frame underneath the floor, the sills will be just enough to hold the stub tenons of the posts.

My father in-law is never far from hand when there is a project to work on. It is his property, after all. I can't say no.


The finished floor with my 6x6 posts stacked on the left and my stock of 2x6's on the right. I put tarps over everything before I left.

[Justin Bailey]

I used 2.75" deep tenons in my frame, but they were 4x6 braces, more wood width there than using 2x6 for shoulders on the tenons, but, in your case you could plant them flush into the outsides of the 6x6 posts, with a dovetailed shaped lap tenon. I know Jim just said earlier that 3" is standard, but I see pictures of braces directly opposite each other off of a post all the time, with certainly some kind of through mortise there. IDK. That is what I did is all. I would rather weaken the center of a post than only one side, given a size of mortise width. Someone on here said they would use 1.25 thick mortises for 6x6 material to weaken the post even less. On the outside posts of my frame, where there is only one brace, I still used 2.75 deep mortising and also 1.75 thickness; all the other ones that have through mortises for bracing on each side I used 1.5 thickness mortising. Your building posts are not that tall, neither are mine. It's not like there is another story above, only the roof. I am thinking like with an ant, certain things may work in a small model, not intended to work at an infinite scale, like as with ant legs/body ratio. You can't have a 100 ft or even a 1ft long ant stand on the same proportion legs that a 1/4" long ant has. _earmuff

[Justin Bailey]

On the other hand, I have only begun my first timber frame, and maybe I am wrong to borrow general furniture 1/3 thickness or less rule for tenons and mortises used to make furniture. I may get away with it in my case, but I guess it eventually pose dangers under building demand, as you get to a certain size. This can't be sized up infinitely maybe is all I am saying. It's not like a building inspector will approve or deny you application in your case with a building that small, are they. Sometimes people over engineer things, like 6x6 corners you have are plenty big so you can get away with whatever size tenon you want (within reason), I'd say.

[Justin Bailey]

Additionally and more important though, is as Jim states in the general guidelines, not to weaken any member more than necessary to create a joint.

[kristingreen]

... in your case you could plant them flush into the outsides of the 6x6 posts

You just hit the nail on the head... or the peg on the end... whatever. I've decided to lap the tenons flush with the reference face of the posts. I'll probably shave 0.5 inch off the back side of the brace on each end to make the tenons and then cut a 6-inch wide by 1.5 inch deep 'dado' across the front of the post. This should retain the strength of both pieces while providing the necessary rigidity of the structure.

I just have to design the frame... again... and then get my cut list together so I can go out and start cutting up those 6x6 posts.

[Justin Bailey]

 

    

  I searched for some examples of what I meant, I guess there is a lot of variations. You need a bearing surface and shoulder, that resists the acute collapse of the joint, but some go a step further, to provide a dove tailed, resistance to being pulled apart against obtuse forcing of the plate/post. I don't know how else to say it.

[kristingreen]

I'm working on a new plan that uses double girts, half-lapped for bracing instead of cross braces. I got this idea from a fine homebuilding video for a shed of similar size. They used 4x4 studs and girts, with 4x6 corner posts. They half-lapped all the joints and in doing so created a very rigid frame.

In my design, I'm planning on using my 6x6 cedar for the posts and plates... and my 2x6 boards for the girts. I'll still do through-mortices on the cross plates with a half-inch shoulder. I will cut into the 6x6 posts but I won't cut into the 2x6 girts. The end result will be girts that sit flush to the outside face of the frame. You can see how this looks from the end of the girt by looking at the corner posts in the diagrams below.

Feedback and comments are always welcome.