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Question for the Electric Experts

Started by Fla._Deadheader, September 20, 2004, 05:40:01 PM

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Fla._Deadheader

  Our computer Guru lives in a mobile home. He had minimal damage from the storm. Tin roof on the addition lifted a bit and water blew in under it, soaking one wall and 2 sections of ceiling.

  Since the storm, the whole metal frame of the trailer is energized.???  I took a wall outlet loose from the box, thinking it MIGHT have had water accumulate in it. It was dry. When I put it back into the wall box, I had 1 knee on the carpet, on the concrete floor. I grabbed the outlet by the ears where the screws go to fasten it to the box, and I got zapped ???

  Today, during the monsoon, Ed was standing on the aluminum ladder against the outside wall. It is vinyl siding over aluminum siding. He touched the aluminum gutter while trying to tape over a window with visqueen, and HE got zapped.

  I have done most everything regarding electricity, but, this one has me stumped. I am thinking broken ground, but, would that make the metal structure hot ???  Any ideas ???

   You definitely don't want to go barefoot inside and touch something. Even the ceiling fan pull chain is hot ??? ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Jeff

Sounds like reversed polarity.  On the old travel trailers if you used a power cord without ground and put the power plug in upside down you would electrify the trailer. Grab a door knob and get a jolt.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Fla._Deadheader

Well, that's what's happened, since the big power outage. How does one cure it ???  Doesn't make sense to me, but, Y'all know how I am.  ::) ::) ;D ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Jeff

You can get reversed polarity from a damaged electrical appliance, or perhaps an improperly installed outlet. Or perhaps something that your favorite utility man didnt do quite right.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

DonE911

Did he re-rig the power box to run off generator??  If not I'd go with the broken ground but the breaker should be tripping...  did it do the same after the maine breaker was turned off??

Furby

My brother was in the process of buying his house and had the papers singed but was waiting to close. On a whim one late night, he took a detour and drove past the place on his way home. The security light over the garage that is always on was flickering. He pulled into the drive and noticed sparks at different places on the building and also felt the wall which was very warm to the touch.
Fire department came out and pulled the meter.

Anyways, try pulling the meter and reinstalling it (or get someone to do it). Did the power panel get wet? Is the insulation on any of the wires wet?

Yep Jeff, old electric stoves would do that.  ;)

Fla._Deadheader

   No generator and no breaker tripping. That's whats throwing me. ???  Wires could be wet from insulation, but, that doesn't seem to be whats happening. Never heard of reverse polarity in a 120V single phase circuit ??? That is usually in a 3 phase circuit, I think ???

  I'm gonna start tripping 1 breaker at a time and see if I can isolate the problem. If not, that would only leave the broken ground or FP&L power problem, right ??? ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

DonE911

I would think so.... I'd start with the 220 breakers...  weird...  like to hear what happens... good info to remember in case it pops up again 20 years from now...

Buzz-sawyer

Harold
I have seen the same situation before.It was a house trailer, and it had a new electrical service installed.
The trouble was, the copper coated grounding rod, was not installed.I noticed the problem, after dark, when the metal steps shot a blue spark 3-4 of an inch to the aluminum sidding. :o :o :o
I believe it's a ground problem for you. :)
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Norm

I'd go with turning off one breaker at a time to isolate the problem, he may have a problem with the neutral line. Check it on the problem circuit for continuity to the service box. If it isn't that I'd get FPL out as soon as possible.

Fla._Deadheader

  So far, i'm looking at a ground problem as the easiest thing to check. Neutral and ground, same-same. Only problem with that is, this unit has galv. tie down straps. Why doesn't THAT bleed off the electricity ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

DonE911

How much water are the grounding straps standing in??? I don't think I'd be checking them bad boys tonight...specially since we just got another 4 inches of rain today/tonight.  Just has to be ground issue... FPL may have messed up if his hotleg was completely down...

Fla._Deadheader

  His power never went off ??? One of the very few that had it full time.???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

J_T

All ground systems go back to the elec.Co system . I wonder about their conection ??? Also the reverse polarity that was menchoned .We were building a house once and wiring it too.To test we ran a extion cord 110 to the breaker box then jumped to the other buss bar  and as Jeff said wired the plug bk wire on large blade or silver screw and white on small blade or gold screw and for some reason the metal duct work became hot :o We almost got a man killed.Even lamp cord has marked polarity wiring look at any cheap lamp cord one side is plain one ribbed or with wrighting on it .Even though ground and netural end at the same place they serve  two different purpoeses.The hot on a light bulb is in the center  it will work but is not good putting the hot on the threads another reverse polarity , Sorry I got carried away
Jim Holloway

beenthere

I guess I would be looking at a hot wire that is 'feeding' (touching) the frame through a break in the insulation enough to energize the trailer frame. Either that, or the hot line wrongly hooked to the neutral side of an outlet or light that is plugged in, and that being where the 'doorknobs' are getting voltage. Maybe just a wet outlet too, with a handful of spider webs in there to keep it wet. I have a 'hot' fluorescent light when the two-prong cord is plugged in backwards (similar to what Jeff explained earlier), such that the hot line is on the wrong wire. One reason for correctly wired three-prong plugs.

For one thing, isolating the circuit and putting a ground fault interupter on that circuit will trip it anytime someone touches it. If your getting a shock, then it comes from the hot side somewhere, IMO.  

Reverse polarity seems only a possibility if it was DC, but not AC single phase. That make sense?

But the one-at-a-time isolation of the breakers should help narrow down the search. Then go to each appliance or outlet on that circuit and isolate them as well. Figure out how to use a voltmeter or a test light to check the problem, as getting a shock each time might be too much 'illumination' for the system.  ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Buzz-sawyer

Well. the trailer I mentioned had the tongue settining on the ground and so was part of the frame........ ::)
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Fla._Deadheader

  JT, I follow what ya said. Earlier I goofed and was thinking Rotation NOT polarity.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

J_T

Beenthare you proved reverse polarity will get you with ac current your light fixture ?? Is the reason recptals have silver screw and gold screw .Fd is the voltage on any rec's wild  ???
Jim Holloway

J_T

Fd if the wind shook the netural wire on the high wires it can get weird too. Would you beleive a bad netural will start a fire quicker than a hot ???
Jim Holloway

Fla._Deadheader

J_T, haven't checked. We were more concerned with the water pouring from the ceiling. We put some Cypress boards up to the sheetrock and screwed them fast, so the ceiling would not come down. Then we got to talking about the electric problem, while it was pouring outside. The ground is saturated here and a shorted out flashlight would probably stand yer hair up. ;D ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

J_T

Would not sleep thare with out 50 zillion smoke dectors :( :o
Jim Holloway

etat

When I wired my house I bought one a them little plug in checkers that's got the lights on it that's  supposed to check for reverse polarity and check the ground.  I actually found one of the plug in's in my house wired incorrectly with it.  I had the white wires on the brass screws and the black wires on the silver screws.  Guess i went color blind for a minute.
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

Fla._Deadheader

 Ha, never heard of one of them things. Guess I gotta go to gulp, Lowe's. :o :o
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

rbarshaw

I've had the same problem in a mobile home where the metal siding had been damaged and cut into a hot wire maKING THE HOLE STRUCTURE 120VAC to ground, gets kind of painful. Had to trip breakers one at a time till the voltage to ground went away, checked with a voltmeter from metal siding to ground, then had to dig thru the walls till I found the problem.
  If the roof was lifted and it's metal and power wires run up there like most mobile homes, that's a good place to start,
Been doing so much with so little for so long I can now do anything with nothing, except help from y'all!
By the way rbarshaw is short for Robert Barshaw.
My Second Mill Is Shopbuilt 64HP,37" wheels, still a work in progress.

Fla._Deadheader

It's on an addition, and the tin roof just raised on one side, not a lot, though. Rain blew in under the tin. Why won't the breaker trip ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

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