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How do you determine the BF market value for stumpage?

Started by LUV2MILL, August 08, 2015, 10:16:10 PM

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LUV2MILL

I'm in central Indiana and I have an opportunity to buy a very nice white oak log about 1200 BF. The owner said to make a reasonable offer based on what a buyer/logger would give.
There is a publication called "Indiana Woodland Steward" but it very general about stumpage prices and doesn't list by species.
Could someone tell me the going stumpage price for a high quality White Oak in central Indiana please.

coxy

have you talked to any loggers to see what there paying on white oak I only pay 35-40 % to land owner  because the market stinks on white oak top grade is only 675 a thousand bf  hope this helps you

LUV2MILL

Quote from: coxy on August 09, 2015, 01:12:27 PM
have you talked to any loggers to see what there paying on white oak I only pay 35-40 % to land owner  because the market stinks on white oak top grade is only 675 a thousand bf  hope this helps you

Unfortunately I don't know of any loggers in this area. The 675, is that what your getting at the mill or what your paying to the land owner? I'll be buying this for personal use.

luvmexfood

Down here in SW VA. the logyard is paying $500 for W/O Veneer, $425 for Prime+, $375 for Prime, $325 for Select and $275. Needless to say where I am cutting our own timber I haven't dropped a W/O since the price drop. I just walk on by them.

Anything Veneer is down at least 50% except Walnut and it is down 25%. They have also cut back their hours and are only taking logs 16 hours a week. Monday-Thursday 8-noon.

First of June W/O Veneer was $1,000, Prime+ was $600.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

David-L

All Oak has dropped here in the northeast. I have delayed a few small jobs because of the price drop. Is the log cut and graded, and by who. Is it delivered to you and a guarantee of know metal if a yard tree? Many variables can make what the log owner thinks is a pricey log to one that is just so so. Any pics of this log, defects, cat facing,etc. Center heart on both ends, like I said many variables. Good luck.
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

ehp

I'm paying more than you guys that is forsure but then again I'm in Canada so that most likely has a big thing to do  with price

NWP

1200 bd ft in one log?  That's a monster. What do you have to move it?  According to the calculator in the FF toolbox that will weigh about 8900 lbs
1999 Blockbuster 2222, 1997 Duratech HD10, 2021 Kubota SVL97-2, 2011 Case SV250, 2000 Case 1845C, 2004 Case 621D, John Deere 540A, 2011 Freightliner with Prentice 120C, 2012 Chevrolet, 1997 GMC bucket truck, several trailers, and Stihl saws.

Tim

Quote from: NWP on August 09, 2015, 08:18:02 PM
1200 bd ft in one log?  That's a monster. What do you have to move it?  According to the calculator in the FF toolbox that will weigh about 8900 lbs

The way he is talking about stumpage, it may be that the stem is still standing and contains more than one log.
Eastern White Cedar Shingles

coxy

Quote from: LUV2MILL on August 09, 2015, 02:59:02 PM
Quote from: coxy on August 09, 2015, 01:12:27 PM
have you talked to any loggers to see what there paying on white oak I only pay 35-40 % to land owner  because the market stinks on white oak top grade is only 675 a thousand bf  hope this helps you

Unfortunately I don't know of any loggers in this area. The 675, is that what your getting at the mill or what your paying to the land owner? I'll be buying this for personal use.
675 is what I get at the mill and say i pay 40% out of that to land owner is 270  our veneer is 11-1500 but I have never cut a white oak in my life  ;D

LUV2MILL

Quote from: NWP on August 09, 2015, 08:18:02 PM
1200 bd ft in one log?  That's a monster. What do you have to move it?  According to the calculator in the FF toolbox that will weigh about 8900 lbs

Using a Biltmore its 30" at the 4.5' height and shows 2 1/2 16' logs. I'll buck it at 8 and 10 foot lengths. That's almost 40' to the first limb. There is almost no visible taper. Am I over estimating the BF?

LUV2MILL

My stick is a Scribner. Found a chart for Form Class - 90 it shows 1121 BF for a tree that size.

gww

I just sold to a mill here that said they were paying 350 mbf but using the forum tool box caculator, I figured the board content at $400 at that price but after grading I left with a check for $255. I am to dumb to know if I did good or bad but had thought it would be about $300 so was a little dissapointed.  Not sure if I will take more or not. 
Don't know if this helps or not.
gww

NWP

Quote from: gww on August 09, 2015, 10:36:01 PM
I just sold to a mill here that said they were paying 350 mbf but using the forum tool box caculator, I figured the board content at $400 at that price but after grading I left with a check for $255. I am to dumb to know if I did good or bad but had thought it would be about $300 so was a little dissapointed.  Not sure if I will take more or not. 
Don't know if this helps or not.
gww

That stinks. Pallet logs around here are $300 mbf. They scale good and don't grade down unless it's real bad. They are desperate for logs with all the rain we've had. Ended up paying me 340 mbf last week if I could have them a load the next morning.

Luv2mill, it sounds like a logger wouldn't be interested because there is only one tree. Figure how much effort it will take you to get it down and get it to your place. How much would you pay for the same tree cut into logs and delivered to your place?  Subtract your labor and expenses of logging it from that and shoot him a price. He may think it's standing gold but you never know.
1999 Blockbuster 2222, 1997 Duratech HD10, 2021 Kubota SVL97-2, 2011 Case SV250, 2000 Case 1845C, 2004 Case 621D, John Deere 540A, 2011 Freightliner with Prentice 120C, 2012 Chevrolet, 1997 GMC bucket truck, several trailers, and Stihl saws.

treeslayer2003

wow, my market is pretty good then, i'm getting 600 for stave logs. op i took an oak like that a few years ago and i estimate it was worth at least 1000. i can't remember exactly, but it was about that size. half of that would be 500 bucks but you are not a logger? and i cut that whole tract. i would say if you have to fall it and move it, 300 would be fair to both of you. bear in mind, once felled it could be in fact nearly worthless. i wouldn't pay a dime untill it was on the ground and bucked.

WDH

Form class 90 is not realistic for an oak log.  78 is about normal.  If might be 80, but I doubt that it is 90.  Using a form class that is too high will over-estimate the BF. 

Using 90 on a log that is really 78 will over-estimate the BF by about 37%.  I suspect that the log has more like 850 BF in it. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

treeslayer2003

 

 
what form class would you call this? it did yield over 1000ft doyle.

mesquite buckeye

Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

WDH

Form class is the inside bark diameter of the tree at 16' from stump height divided by the outside bark diameter at 4.5' (DBH). 

To get form class of felled tree, you can scrape off the bark on each side of the log at 16' from the butt, measure the diameter with a set of calipers, and then measure the DBH outside bark at 4' from the butt (assuming a .5' stump).  Then divide the 16' inside bark measurement by the diameter measurement at DBH.

For example, if the DBH is 30" and the bark at 16' is 1.5" on each side, then for a 80 FC tree, the inside bark diameter would need to be 24", and the outside bark diameter at 16' would be 27".   

Treeslayer, I would estimate your tree to have a FC of about 80. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

treeslayer2003

that is probably one of the best white oaks i have ever taken. tulip poplar, like that and better frequently.

i wish i had 100acres of white oak like that lol.

wdh, i will try and remember that formula. how do you apply that to a standing timber rule? this must be the mistake i always make on bid sheets. always come out way low on paper, then i can walk it and come up very close to footage harvested just by estimate.

WDH

If you look at the Forestry Forum Calculator in the Tool Box, it has a provision for selecting the Form Class that you want to use to determine BF in a tree based on the DBH and the # of 16' logs. 

In the South, we generally use 78 Form Class for most average timber as that is what the research has found.  On very good timber on the best sites, the Form Class can be higher.  Not sure what the average Form Class is in Northern hardwoods.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

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