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lean seize

Started by bandmiller2, August 07, 2015, 08:18:16 PM

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bandmiller2

Have any of you fellas personally ever had a lean seize using full synthetic 2 cyc. oil at 50/1. Don't mean to start the oil wars just curious. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

celliott

Nope. I run 32:1 and haven't had an issue.

I don't think you would have a lean seize at 50:1, but I do think that ratio leaves the bottom end (crank bearings and big end bearing) lacking for lubrication, which is bad long term.
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

AdkStihl

Quote from: celliott on August 07, 2015, 09:16:18 PM
Nope. I run 32:1 and haven't had an issue.

I don't think you would have a lean seize at 50:1, but I do think that ratio leaves the bottom end (crank bearings and big end bearing) lacking for lubrication, which is bad long term.

X2

On a side note, I have had a cold seize running 32:1 @ -20F
Long story.
But I will say that ice cold fuel entering the cylinder the WOT coupled with snow being sucked up by the flywheel and being thrown at the intake side of the jug doesn't make for a nice scenario.
J.Miller Photography

tosmall

When I hear "lean seize" I think of seal leaking problems not fuel oil mix problems.
Even with a proper fuel oil ratio you can have a lean seize due to to much air being drawn through leaking crankcase seals. This leads to piston scoring and eventual failure. If I get a saw in for almost any "run" issues I check the crankcase pressure and vacuum for leaks.
A good benchmark questioning is:
Does the saw idle for five minuets without stoping?
Does the chain move at idle?
Does the saw accelerate smoothly from idle to full power?

Jhenderson

Tosmall is right. Every saw mfg recommends 50-1 syn for a reason. They have to warranty the saw, and that's what makes it run best. Oil is a lube not a fuel. Run too rich an oil mix and you need to richen the fuel air ratio to compensate for less true fuel. That equals low performance. I've never seen a saw seize at 50-1, but I've seen a few blow because of a lean fuel-air condition. Either by seizing or loosing a crank bearing or rod from over rev. I've learned several expensive lessons trying for just a few more rpm.

barbender

Jhenderson, don't the manufacturers also have to meet emission standards?
Too many irons in the fire

Timbercruiser

In the cut and skid days of logging in my home town we had thousands and cutters who ran saws . One paper company had 3500 employees with woodlands . You got paid rental on using your own saw the gas was mixed and put out by the mechanics in the morning . All the gas was mixed 50:1 guys said you run the saw one full year and trade it off . Jonsered used to say the saw had 1500 hrs of wide open throttle built in with proper tuning .   I dont see why people run more oil ? if you tear a saw down all the parts have a film of oil on them . So how id there a lack of oil with 50:1  :)

Al_Smith

Oh goody the oil wars again.My favorite subject . 8)

Now then a lean  fuel/air ratio is what burns two cycle engine up,not the oil/fuel ratio .If the thinking that less oil is better then why not run straight gasoline ?

Now think back any body over 30-40 years old to the old outboard engines,Evinrude,Mercury etc .At one time they used 16 to one mix ratios .They didn't gum up ,fact most would still run today.That was straight 30WT motor oil to boot .

Now looky here I didn't care what ratio of fuel and oil or what kind of oil people use .However the thought that ratios oil  richer than 50 to 1 is harmfull has no bearing with factuality and it's been proven .

It's pretty much a known fact that saw racers using extremely modified saws use a minimum of 32 to 1 and some higher than that in saws costing over 5 thousand dollars .That should say something . ;)

Pine Ridge

I don't want to jinx myself, i've been lucky and havent had a lean seize. I run husky xp oil, i mix just a little rich, with ethanol-free premium gas. Not saying i'm right or wrong with the way i mix a little rich , it's worked for me . By a little rich i mean 40 or 45:1 .
Husqvarna 550xp , 2- 372xp and a 288xp, Chevy 4x4 winch truck

thecfarm

I like the oil wars too.  ;D I have no where near the knowledge and experience that Al has. I cooked a 372 mixing 50:1. Used the premix bottles and I am the only one mixing the gas. the dealer just KNEW that I was not mixing the fuel right.  ::)  I went to 40:1 and everything is fine. Had it tuned to that mixture too. I know I maybe losing some power,but that one more second it takes me to saw through a 18 inch log does not matter to me. Might as well as add fire to the fuel too. I use the highest octane gas I can get at my local gas station.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

bandmiller2

I started this thread for you Al. Have you ever found a way to make field corn good to eat off the cob.?? Was talking to a old boy that said he grew up on field corn his mother would put some vinegar in the boil water and it was good, suppose if you hungry it would taste dandy. I just grow the fancy yuppie hybreds. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

ZeroJunk

Well, I think if you have a saw tuned properly and aren't trying to have it screaming on the edge all the time 50 to 1 will work fine until you are sick of it. I also think that if you let it get a touch lean you can get away with it better to some extent using 40 to 1 or 32 to 1 .

Of course, I have no more facts to back that up than anybody does about most of the stuff they believe.

Al_Smith

Corn on the cob? Well since I got the china clippers I can't even chew it off the cob .I either cut it off with a knife or get it in liquid form .

Besides that corn is much better to eat,fatten cattle or make good whiskey than it is for engine fuel .Moon shine for motor fuel ,good grief .

Hey maybe some wizard will get the bright idea to use corn oil as mix oil .That should work out well .Chainsaw that smells like a corn flake .

clww

I'm liking the 40:1 ratio that I mix it to. I haven't cooked one yet (knocks on wood).
Many Stihl Saws-16"-60"
"Go Ask The Other Master Chief"
18-Wheeler Driver

bandmiller2

I pretty much go by the 50/1 but I use a little less gas when I fill the can same effect. Reason I asked, is synthetic much better than dino oil and is it more likely to come through in a pinch. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

NH-Murph

I like the nice, simple math of 40:1... One 6.4 OZ bottle to 2 gallons of fuel.  Even I don't screw that up!  Plus, the first couple pours out of a 2-1/2 gallon can with only 2 gallons in it tends to spill less than when I would mix 50:1 and fill the can all the way up.  I can get a little spaztic after my 3rd cup of coffee in the morning, so spillage is inevitable.

JohnG28

40:1 has worked well for me, so far. As mentioned, it's easy to mix. For one gal mix bottles use 0.8 gal, or even 2 gals for 2.5 gal mix bottles.
Stihl MS361, 460 & 200T, Jonsered 490, Jonsereds 90, Husky 350 & 142, Homelite XL and Super XL

Jhenderson

Quote from: Al_Smith on August 08, 2015, 10:47:56 PM
Oh goody the oil wars again.My favorite subject . 8)

Now then a lean  fuel/air ratio is what burns two cycle engine up,not the oil/fuel ratio .If the thinking that less oil is better then why not run straight gasoline ?

Now think back any body over 30-40 years old to the old outboard engines,Evinrude,Mercury etc .At one time they used 16 to one mix ratios .They didn't gum up ,fact most would still run today.That was straight 30WT motor oil to boot .

Now looky here I didn't care what ratio of fuel and oil or what kind of oil people use .However the thought that ratios oil  richer than 50 to 1 is harmfull has no bearing with factuality and it's been proven .

It's pretty much a known fact that saw racers using extremely modified saws use a minimum of 32 to 1 and some higher than that in saws costing over 5 thousand dollars .That should say something . ;)
.      You'll find that the guys running 32-1 are running alcohol and mixing it with castor based oil. It mixes better with alcohol than traditional oils or syn. And you'll also find when talking to them if they mix richer than that they ruin expensive saws.

ZeroJunk

A lot if not most of the guys porting, shaving cylinders, running domed pistons etc. for work saws recommend 32 to 1 for every day use with gasoline with little if any consensus on which oil is best. Klotz, Belray, HP Ultra, and the list goes on and on.

Interesting because one guy did some tests and the cylinder was actually cooler running 50 to 1 than higher oil mixtures and they may still be arguing about that, I haven't looked lately.

Al_Smith

Okay here's one for y'all. I recently looked up the operators manual for a Stihl 066 Here's what they said .

Using "Stihl" oil 50 to 1.Using anybody elses' oil 25 to 1 .I didn't write it ,Stihl did .

Odd it seems McCulloch back in the day pushed Mac branded oil at 40 to 1 and using others 20 to one .How about them apples ?Funny too it seem everybody that sells saws and also their own "branded "oil says the same thing .Maybe they just like selling oil .

Does that mean if I use Stihl ultra in my 1975 McCulloch PM 1000 I have to mix 20 to one?

I dunno if y'all want to run 100 to 1 I could care less .Your saws,not mine.---I just luv the oil wars -- 8)


Mopar70

Good call on the evenrude, I have a 30 hp 2 stroke that is factory 100-1 ratio, in the two years I have owned it the plugs have always been a nice tan color.
timber cruiser brought up a good point 1500-2000 hours run time.
But if you factor that into one year or even 2 year runtime it makes more sense, take a saw that's 5 years older with 500 hours mixed at the same ratio as the  newer saw with 2000 hours.
I know where I would place my bet, on the saw that wore out being used every day.

ZeroJunk

Quote from: Al_Smith on August 10, 2015, 10:53:29 PM
Okay here's one for y'all. I recently looked up the operators manual for a Stihl 066 Here's what they said .

Using "Stihl" oil 50 to 1.Using anybody elses' oil 25 to 1 .I didn't write it ,Stihl did .

Odd it seems McCulloch back in the day pushed Mac branded oil at 40 to 1 and using others 20 to one .How about them apples ?Funny too it seem everybody that sells saws and also their own "branded "oil says the same thing .Maybe they just like selling oil .

Does that mean if I use Stihl ultra in my 1975 McCulloch PM 1000 I have to mix 20 to one?

I dunno if y'all want to run 100 to 1 I could care less .Your saws,not mine.---I just luv the oil wars -- 8)

I started out cutting and selling fire wood with a Homelite 7-19C . It said 1/2 pint per gallon with Homelite oil and 3/4 pint per gallon with 30 weight motor oil. We were too dumb to figure ratios back then.

sawguy21

Quote from: Al_Smith on August 10, 2015, 10:53:29 PM
Okay here's one for y'all. I recently looked up the operators manual for a Stihl 066 Here's what they said .

Using "Stihl" oil 50 to 1.Using anybody elses' oil 25 to 1 .I didn't write it ,Stihl did .

Odd it seems McCulloch back in the day pushed Mac branded oil at 40 to 1 and using others 20 to one .How about them apples ?Funny too it seem everybody that sells saws and also their own "branded "oil says the same thing .Maybe they just like selling oil .

Does that mean if I use Stihl ultra in my 1975 McCulloch PM 1000 I have to mix 20 to one?

I dunno if y'all want to run 100 to 1 I could care less .Your saws,not mine.---I just luv the oil wars -- 8)
Then the customer sees a drop in performance using the heavier mix so of course switches to the recommended soup, what a marketing ploy. I use Stihl oil in my Echo and Husky at 50:1 because it is readily available and works just fine, have used Echo and Husqvarna with no ill effects.
Many years ago I tried a 100:1 one of our suppliers was peddling in a Lawnboy mower, it seized. The rep tried to deny a warranty claim, said I hadn't mixed it properly. Look pal, this is what I do for a living. You want us to carry your oil or what? He paid but I never tried that again.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Warped

Common rule of thumb. If the damage is above piston rings, you have a lean air/fuel mixture, below the rings is a lubrication issue.
I've burned and smeared more pistons than I will admit from crud in the carb lodging in the main jet........blam! burned down! Clean my sled carbs every year now, well, at least every other  :D
Good with the rough stuff and rough with the good stuff

Al_Smith

I don't know if you get a drop in performance or not. A majority of my saws have at least  some degree of modification so I really can't answer that .

I've  got ultra but I mix it a little heavier than 50 to one .Usually it's what ever I can get my hands on .

In my lifetime I did scald one saw but  it was no oil not lack of same .That's what happens when you grab a squeeze bottle and don't pay attention .Prime on a Mac 850 I had   just put together .Twas a sad sad day . :(

lumberjack48

  This oil business reminds me of a time up on the Yaak. We were closing up a sale, going a round picking up logs that got missed. We needed a saw, he had a 10-10 Mac in the pickup. There was gas but no mix. I waved Mick over the guy i was working for and told him i needed 2 cycle oil. He looked around in the back end of the pickup, Spit a big woad of Copenhagen on the ground and said, what the heck are you talking about, theres oil right there. It was 140 gear lube, he mixed it up, i wanted nothing to do with it. I also used it for bar oil. I ran the ole 10-10 about three hours with no issues. You know how 90 or 140 smells, put in your saw and see how it smells ;D

About 32 yrs ago i bought a new 034, the Stihl dealer told me if i didn't use Stihl oil and mix it 32:1, he wouldn't warranty the saw. I set my saw right out on the edge, it couldn't be set any leaner. I never scored a piston on a Stihl. Don't anybody do this, when its set this way you have to know how to run the saw.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

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