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28'x50' Barn, broke ground this weekend

Started by jimdad07, August 04, 2015, 11:46:10 PM

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jimdad07

I know you guys are probably about tired of reading the redundant posting so I wanted to ask some joinery questions starting with my first floor framing.  I am in the phase of designing my joinery and I have a good idea of what I want to do after several hours of reading old posts, etc.

1:  I'll start with my tie beams as they will be the most complicated for me.
-my tie beams are 10"x16" EWP.  I have read several posts about cutting my tenons at 1/4 the width of the beam.  This would put me at a tenon 2.5"x16".  Keep in mind that I plan to cut a shoulder in the bottom of the joint at 3/4" going to 0" by the time I get to the top of the joint in the 10"x10" post.  Is it acceptable to use a 2" tenon for this joint?  Also I would like to make this a through tenon so I can maitain plenty of relish with the amount of tension on the joint.  I would also like to double peg this joint with ash pegs that are 1.5" diameter.
- next are the scarf joints for the tie beams.  I am interested in using a stop splayed scarf joint with ash wedges with the joint being supported by a knee brace and not the post.  If I am understanding my building loads right this joint will be in high tension due to rafter thrust at the top plates.  Is there a better option for this joint that a newb like I can understand? Am I also right in assuming that a beam with a depth of 16" will need a scarf joint at 64" in length?
- next question: stub tenons connecting my center posts to my tie beams.  Does the same rule apply to sizing stub tenons as regular tendons?  Also what is a good height for the tenon on a 10"x10" post tying into a 10"x16" tie beam?  Also I want to recess the post into the tie beam a 1/2".

Plenty more questions to follow.
Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

Dave Shepard

I would use 2"/2" joinery, unless engineering dictated otherwise. When you try to cut joints without chisels and drill bits the exact size, efficiency goes out the window.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Brian_Weekley

Hi Jim,  Do you have a drawing you can post of your building?  Sorry, I'm thinking you may be using incorrect terms for the timbers you're describing.
e aho laula

beenthere

Did you ever do the pour on the slab? Saw pics of removing dirt and wondered....

Or is it awaiting the posts first? and thus on the design...
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

jimdad07

Quote from: Brian_Weekley on September 24, 2015, 04:12:09 PM
Hi Jim,  Do you have a drawing you can post of your building?  Sorry, I'm thinking you may be using incorrect terms for the timbers you're describing.

I have to make them to scale and take a picture of them to post.  When I say tie beam I mean the beam that spans from one wall to the other and supports the second floor.  The posts I'm referring to are the upright posts that will support under the tie beam as well as the posts that will make up the outside walls and carry the top plate.  You'll have to forgive me, I'm just trying to learn everything I can before I finalize the joinery and make sure I'm not missing any steps in the process.  I figured the better game plan I have the better my barn will come out.  I really need to have an engineer examine my drawings but money is a very large issue right now with the farm and breakdowns this summer sucking my barn fund down to just enough for one load of logs and the concrete we poured last weekend.  That's why I'm asking so many questions and running so many numbers.  I will probably be over engineered but that's much better than being the other way.  Your patience and responses are appreciated.
Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

jimdad07

Quote from: beenthere on September 24, 2015, 05:48:13 PM
Did you ever do the pour on the slab? Saw pics of removing dirt and wondered....

Or is it awaiting the posts first? and thus on the design...

Slab is poured, barely beat the rain and covered the concrete right in time.  I know the footprint I want and the design is pretty firm in my head as well as the sizes of the timbers.  I have a rough print drawn up but I don't want to finalize it until I have the joinery figured out.  I have to sit down and post the pics.
Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

Ljohnsaw

Jim,

When I designed my cabin (doing the foundation now), I downloaded a free version of SketchUp.  Quite a learning curve but once mastered, you can draw up just about anything really fast.  It has add-ons that will help with the joints later on in the process.  I did the load calcs (with the help of the Tool Box on the left, bottom).  Then I worked with Fire Tower Engineered Timber, Inc - recommended by a few here.  They were VERY flexible.  I maintained control of my plans making changes that they requested/required, saving myself a lot of money on a draftsman or their time to do the changes.  I eventually had to buy a version of SketchUp to get Layout, which turns your 3D model into normal architectural plans that you annotate and can submit to your building department (if a permit is required).

SketchUp then will generate the shop drawings you need for doing all your joint cuts - all you do is add the dimensions by using the tape measure in the program.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

jimdad07

Quote from: ljohnsaw on September 24, 2015, 06:14:05 PM
Jim,

When I designed my cabin (doing the foundation now), I downloaded a free version of SketchUp.  Quite a learning curve but once mastered, you can draw up just about anything really fast.  It has add-ons that will help with the joints later on in the process.  I did the load calcs (with the help of the Tool Box on the left, bottom).  Then I worked with Fire Tower Engineered Timber, Inc - recommended by a few here.  They were VERY flexible.  I maintained control of my plans making changes that they requested/required, saving myself a lot of money on a draftsman or their time to do the changes.  I eventually had to buy a version of SketchUp to get Layout, which turns your 3D model into normal architectural plans that you annotate and can submit to your building department (if a permit is required).

SketchUp then will generate the shop drawings you need for doing all your joint cuts - all you do is add the dimensions by using the tape measure in the program.

The toolbox here is excellent.  I ran all of my post and beam sizes as well as figured the rafters with it.  I made notes of all the calcs so I can post them here when the plan is 100% set.  In a previous life I took four years of architectural drafting and mechanical drafting so I have a decent if not rusty handle on that end of it.  Go figure I ended up in construction and finally into industrial HVAC for the past ten years.
Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

jimdad07

Quote from: ljohnsaw on September 24, 2015, 06:14:05 PM
Jim,

When I designed my cabin (doing the foundation now), I downloaded a free version of SketchUp.  Quite a learning curve but once mastered, you can draw up just about anything really fast.  It has add-ons that will help with the joints later on in the process.  I did the load calcs (with the help of the Tool Box on the left, bottom).  Then I worked with Fire Tower Engineered Timber, Inc - recommended by a few here.  They were VERY flexible.  I maintained control of my plans making changes that they requested/required, saving myself a lot of money on a draftsman or their time to do the changes.  I eventually had to buy a version of SketchUp to get Layout, which turns your 3D model into normal architectural plans that you annotate and can submit to your building department (if a permit is required).

SketchUp then will generate the shop drawings you need for doing all your joint cuts - all you do is add the dimensions by using the tape measure in the program.

BTW, I've been paying attention to your build, quite a site you have there.  It's going to be a perfect setting for your cabin.  The amount of rock you have there looks like a good time for working around them!
Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

jimdad07

Guess I better put some figures down as I work towards the final draft.

Barn size: 28'x50'
Number of bents: 5
Bays: 4
First floor ceiling height to bottom of tie beams: 12'
Total roof load: 64psf
Total 2nd floor: 80psf
Roof pitch: 8/12 at gable end bays
                -5/12 over the middle bays, reasoning is for more usable space for my wood shop.
When I say bays for the roof pitch I'm putting the tributary areas in between the rafters in relation to the bays on the first floor.  I am planning a rafter and purlin roof system, with the rafters lining up with the posts over the outer walls of the barn.

That being said I ran my load numbers through the forum toolbox using the beam and stringer calculator.

Starting with the roof:
Rafters passed all tests with a 8"x10" EWP giving me 0.4" deflection over the span
Purlins that pass are 5"x8" EWP
-planning a T and F joint where the rafters meet at the roof ridge with a single peg
-want to install the purlins in pockets in the rafters and secure with timberlocs (I know that's cheating)
-the tails of the rafters is something I'm undecided on.  I plan on cutting rafter seats into the top plates but am not sure on how I want to work the tails for the eaves of the barn
I ran these numbers for the rafters as if there aren't any purlin plates and queen posts supporting at mid span, my span is 14' measuring from the roof ridge to the outside wall.  A concern of mine is rafter thrust at the top plates if I don't use a purlin plate system.  That concern is battling with the desire for an open second floor.  I will have to go with the safest building practice on this one and most likely use a purlin plate and queen post system.  The other design consideration for a purlin plate and queen post is I will only have one post off center supporting the tie beams and will not be able to carry the load directly to the footers below the first floor posts. 

I'll get into the first floor loads and sizing in the next installment.  Sorry if this is confusing and my terminology probably sucks, but if you guys can decipher what I'm trying to say it would be a help.
Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

jimdad07

Good news, turns out there's a FF. Member less than five miles from my house who has cut and built his own frame.  The guy makes wooden boats to boot.  Going to meet up with him next week and pick his brain.
Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

jimdad07

Good news for me today, my logs are getting dropped tomorrow night.  I also broke down and will be picking up my band mill next Friday.  Must have been smoking something when I thought I could mill out this frame with my chainsaw.  Figured out my cost just for lumber and I'll still save close to $1000 after buying a brand new band mill.  Very excited about it all.
Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

jimdad07

First tie beam is cut.  It is 10"x16"x21' long.  Nine more of these to go and then onto posts.  It's been slow going with all of the winter prep going on but I now have a start.  Let me know if the pics are sideways, been editing and rotating them trying to get them to show up right on the full site.



Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

beenthere

Not sideways.. so you are gaining on it.

But put some lines or blanks to separate the pics... helps. Don't get discouraged... we do like pics.  8)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

jimdad07

Quote from: beenthere on November 02, 2015, 11:35:42 PM
Not sideways.. so you are gaining on it.

But put some lines or blanks to separate the pics... helps. Don't get discouraged... we do like pics.  8)

I'm working on it! I put spaces in the post, I'll try some more.  I'm on a few forums for milling and chainsaws and this one has got to be the worst for posting pics.  I'm spoiled by Tapatalk, start a post, snap a picture and it's automatically put in the post.  Very much enjoying my sawmill, it's sitting on the barn slab.  Glad I bought the extra couple sections of track with the mill, these are long timbers.  I wasn't prepared for the size of the beam.  I rolled it with a peevee after the last cut.  Now I'm not a small and out of shape guy at 6'2" and 212#'s, but I'm pretty sure I lost a nut turning that beam after I was done cutting it!
Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

beenthere

FYI
Don't badmouth our pic posting... not good to do that...  ;D

You will find this is not like other Forums in many ways... and this is a good one (not saying anything about the others.. ).

Spaces between your images... and some verbage isn't hard to do.  ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

jimdad07

Quote from: beenthere on November 03, 2015, 01:19:57 AM
FYI
Don't badmouth our pic posting... not good to do that...  ;D

You will find this is not like other Forums in many ways... and this is a good one (not saying anything about the others.. ).

Spaces between your images... and some verbage isn't hard to do.  ;)

I joined this board about four years ago and have been lurking more than anything.  I can see this one is different, lot less pretending on this site compared to some others with good knowledgeable members.  People don't jump down your throat on this board for asking questions, might not be much response but there is a level of respect for each other that is good.











PS.
I just love the picture posting process on here!  It's great!  Wouldn't change a thing!
Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

jimdad07

Hoping you guys can help me out designing my scarf joints for my tie beams.  My beams are 10"x16", I was figuring on a joint 64" long using Sobon's general rule of thumb.  I want the best joint I can get but also one I can handle figuring out and cutting being new to this.  The joint I was settling on is a stop splayed, under squinted and wedged joint.  Anybody have some pointers and general rules for these joints?
Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

Jim_Rogers

The key is to make each layout and cutting from the same pattern.

I did several this way and it worked for me.

To start you layout each location of a point along the top surface. And each location of the same point down from the top surface.
Then you connect the points with straight lines.

Here is a drawing to show you what I mean.



 

To practice this layout take a board the same width as your timber. In my example I am using a 8" wide board:



 

next layout the points along the top edge:



 

Next down from the top:


 

Project where these lines cross to make the points:



 

Then connect the points



 

If you are doing the top side then the bottom side is waste. If you are doing the bottom side then the top side is waste.
You may want to only make the spot in the middle for the wedges only 1 1/2" wide instead of 2" as I have drawn.

Here is a finished view:



 

Practice your layout and then do it for real on your timbers.
Good luck with your project and let us know how you make out.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

jimdad07

Thanks Jim, that's exactly what I was looking for.
Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

Jim_Rogers

Jimdad07:
The idea is that the top is the reference face. The outside face is the adjacent face. The edge where these two faces meet is the "arris" and it is where all the dimensions are pulled from.
If the bottom two surfaces don't line up, so be it.
That is where the variability of the timber goes.
Always "x" out your waste side and then cut and leave the lines. You can always trim off later when fitting up. Adding shims looks like you didn't do it right.

I always cut the two scarfs and put the two pieces together to make one long piece before I layout anything else on the timbers. That way if you make a mistake and have to move over and do it all again you'll have enough timber left on the other end. Use a very good long straight edge to layout your long scarf lines.

When fitting up to check the joint, put them together as much as you can and then insert your two wedges. Pound them in from both sides at the same time to suck it up to the under squinted butts. Check the top surface to be flush from one to the other. And if it isn't trim a little to make it so.

I mark "witness lines" across the joint when it is pulled up and correct so that when I take it apart to move it to the frame site I can put it back together again and I'll be sure that it is in the correct spot.

I secure it with several timberlok screws as well as wedges and or pegs.
I don't usually try and draw bore it.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Jim_Rogers

For one barn addition I did we had to make up a 56' plate. We had three scarfs in this plate.
Here is the first one:



 

And the second one:



 

And the last one:



 

So I had a lot of practice doing these.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

jimdad07

It looks to me that the depth of the undersquint is a 1/4 of the beam depth, yours is 2" and your beam is 8".  So if that is the rule then my undersquint will have a depth of 4" on a 16" beam.  Is my thinking correct?
Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

jimdad07

Jim those came out nice in that barn.  I read a post of yours over in the tfguild on those particular joints and the explanation of why they were used.  I have  nine scarf joints to cut for this barn.  Should be good at it by the end.
Hudson HFE 30 Homesteader bandmill w/28' of track
Couple tractors, a bunch of chainsaws and not enough time to use them.

Jim_Rogers

Quote from: jimdad07 on November 07, 2015, 09:28:59 AM
It looks to me that the depth of the undersquint is a 1/4 of the beam depth, yours is 2" and your beam is 8".  So if that is the rule then my undersquint will have a depth of 4" on a 16" beam.  Is my thinking correct?

You could try it and see how it looks. If it looks proportional then maybe. I don't know for sure what the rule on that is.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

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