What do you pay your help?

[justallan1]

What do you guys pay your day help? Every year I'm getting more folks wanting firewood and just can't keep up. I know of a young man who is plenty eager and able to work and am considering letting him help out cutting and splitting for me.
I've actually told him that he could come out and start cutting and splitting, sell it this winter and the money would be his, problem is that he wants/needs money right now.
Minimum wage here is $8.05 an hour, I get $140.00 a cord.
I'd like to pay him by the cord, but am open to ideas.
Thanks

[beenthere]

Pay him by the cord that he splits. Estimate what you think it is worth per hour, and settle up with him after each cord split. If he works faster or slower, it will be his doings.
Keep your investment down and maybe leave him with a bonus as you sell it off.

[starmac]

Are you talking your saw and splitter, or his saw and a maul??
I would imagine you would have to pay farly well, if you intend to keep him and depend on him being there when you need him.

A couple of years back, a guy was trying to pay 15 a cord for someone to split, useing his splitter, he even went as far as advertising on the radio with zero takers.

[justallan1]

It would be all of my equipment, he'd need boots and gloves. My saws are 2-5 years old and my splitter is 3 seasons old and I keep them in good shape and ready to use.
I'm kind of leaning towards $9-10 an hour, but would much rather pay by the cord. He'd be helping bring the logs in and then the rest would be his game to make as much as he wants.

[clww]

I charged $25 an hour last year for me to split firewood for customers using my own equipment. If they needed it bucked to length, it was the same hourly rate. Since you are providing all the equipment, I wouldn't offer the helper more than $20 per cord. I would not pay by the hour-no incentive for production. That's still good money for essentially unskilled labor.

[Jhenderson]

I won't offer up a number but if I could find someone to cut and split my wood for $20 a cord I'd never touch another stick.

[justallan1]

That was my initial thought also, but it seems that I've heard there are places that firewood doesn't fetch near as much as others.
I'm kind of leaning towards $35-$40 and bumping it up when he hits a certain number and definitely letting him know this before hand.

[beenthere]

Your saws are at risk here, and I'd suggest ASAP that he get his own saw as part of the deal. That is a weak spot in this deal to have him work up your wood.
Or make a deal that a saw of yours will be his, but it will happen when the first 4 or 5 cords are worked up (finished). 
He needs ownership of this project besides just some wage or money in his pocket. Something he can see and feel as a way to move ahead in his life. Maybe it will just be that he doesn't want to cut and split wood for a living. ;)
Good on you that you are helping this lad, and hopefully giving him a hand that isn't just a hand-out.

[WV Sawmiller]

   What is the liability for him cutting using your equipment? Are you insured for such if he gets hurt or killed or hurts someone else?

   I always like the idea of working on incentive plan whether me working or my help. I like the idea of selling him a saw and maybe rent on the other equipment. Let him provide all fuel and oil, establish a value of the saw and rate for the lumber and maybe agree that half of all he cuts goes to pay for the saw till it is paid off. Once he is in the black he may want to buy or lease his other equipment from somewhere else if he can get a better rate. That's just business and good training for him too. Good luck.

[justallan1]

I do like the idea of him obtaining his own saw and I believe his father has one already, so maybe that's something to toss into the deal. The woodsplitter, trucks and trailer are mine, so I'll just have to watch and make sure he's not abusing anything.
The whole insurance is the stickler for me. I've been told that if I write up a contract stating that I'm actually BUYING wood from him, not paying him to cut it, that I'm in the clear. Seems to me that idea has some holes in it. :D
Basically my plan would be to do any felling and bucking branches myself and leave the safer part of the deal to him and just watch and see how he can handle himself.

[21incher]

I am thinking if you want to pay him by the cord the best way to do it would be to have him set up a business and then hire him as a contractor. That switches all the labor laws and taxes to him. I think you should discuss this with your accountant and insurance provider to be safe.

[justallan1]

That's basically how it was explained to me, but I'm not so sure it would work out with a 16 year old kid.
My accountant cooks me supper and we only discuss money when she's broke, but never when I am. :D

[21incher]

Here in NY under 18 year olds need working papers and it limits the type of jobs they can leaglly perform. Better check your state laws when it comes to employing a minor.

[woodmills1]

At 20 DanG even 30 bucks a cord please come run my multitek.

[redprospector]

I agree with all the posts saying to make sure everything is legal. Someone getting hurt on your job (especially someone 16 years old) could devastate you.
Now for my method of determining wages.
If I absolutely have to pay someone by the hour, I have my own "minimum wage". The state say's $7.35 I think, but if they can't produce enough for me to afford to pay them $10 an hour, I don't need them. Now I figure that for a legal employee that is being paid what he/she's worth they need to produce $20 an hour to make me break even paying them $10 an hour. Personally I don't like breaking even. There's no profit in it. So in reality this employee needs to consistently produce $25 to $30 an hour for me to feel good about paying them $10.
Now your responsibility as a "fair" employer is to keep track of this employee's production. If they are consistently producing $50 an hour then you need to up the anty, and pay them what they are worth.
What the employee is producing is referring to the "net" profit they are producing. So a "fair" employer has to do a lot of homework to earn their share.
So the ball is back in your court. What do you (feel comfortable) pay(ing) your help?

[justallan1]

Here in NY under 18 year olds need working papers and it limits the type of jobs they can leaglly perform. Better check your state laws when it comes to employing a minor.

Crap, I hate seeing the truth told, especially when I already knew it. :embarassed:
You guys are pointing out the thoughts that I was trying not to think about, but you're certainly right. If it were just my butt on the line I'd roll the dice, but this would all be taking place on the ranch that I work for and there is just no way that I can put them at risk.
HMMMMM! I'm not done with this yet.
Thanks for the help.

[4x4American]

I worked on a farm through high school here in nys and I did alot of firewood.  He paid me $10/hr.  I had my own chainsaw and maul.  I was off the books.  Don't know what would have happened if something did happen but I bet it wouldn't have been good.  I also tailed his sawmill and run heavy equipment.  He didn't seemed worried about it.

[Corley5]

I start them out at $10.00 an hour.  If they prove themselves safe, productive, reliable and good with the equipment they get a raise.  Most don't last that long.  Maybe that's me ;) ;D  The last guy missed one too many days of work because of  morning tummy aches : :  Liability is always a big concern :(  I don't like to pay on production because it has a tendency to cause employees to hurry and operate in an unsafe manner that may lead to personal injury or equipment failure.

[Thewoodman]

Day rate of $120NZD. $15 a hour. pay a decent rate and dont get a Boy that needs to be told what to do. Get a man who can think for himself.

[ely]

I used to pay my kids 9/hr to do whatever work I had, mostly splitting and stacking. sometimes scrap metal work too. I always told them that if I started seeing 8 dollars an hour work out there I would fire fire them. now I have one boy who works at the chevy house, another who just started a bank job(not robbing) thankfully. and finally a 14 year old that is slipping fast to the I want to lay around and watch tv crowd... he used to be my best employee. :-\

[Justify008]

Last time I paid someone to help with firewood it was production based I think it was $30-$35 per cord with a $5 bonus if they got it done in a certain amount of time I cant remember how long that was. This was just them splitting with my splitter and throwing on the truck. I would stack it on the truck if need be and I would do all the chainsaw work. The best deal I ever had someone dropped off some monster red oaks for free that I didn't want to mess with I told a friend that needed wood but didn't have any money if he split it up he could have half I got a couple of cords and only had gas invested. Since I got the processor hasn't been much need for help.

[r.man]

It could still be done with the cooperation of the young fellows father. Sell the logs or blocks, buy back the firewood, lease, loan or rent the equipment by the day. With the involvement and cooperation of the father I expect your potential legal liabilities would disappear.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Age sure sounds like a huge factor here. I know you want to help and respect that. I'd certainly be trying to treat this as a contractor issue. Maybe you give him the wood to sell back to you when cut and split, rent (I think loaning keeps more liability for you) him equipment if he can't get it from someone else (preferred) then pay him for the wood he produces.

   If that fails may just have to try to hire him within legal constraints when you have the time to use and supervise him until he is older.

   You might have to hire him an older helper as a supervisor. We had a family business and Dad used to hire adult helpers to work with us (me and 2 brothers). we knew how to do the work but weren't old enough to drive.

[beenthere]

How times have changed, and I don't think for the better.
When 11, took Dad's old JD and old manure spreader from home and went to a small farmette to pitch loads of sheep manure for 25 cents a load. Had to share that with my brother who was 12. The manure so deep that the pitch fork would bump the ceiling and had to dig it out while being stooped over.. even at 11.

Now look at the protective laws against such a thing.

[justallan1]

I agree 100%, BT. Times HAVE certainly changed and not for the better.
I'll figure something out. The kid needs money and so do I. ;D

[John Mc]

In most states, even if you hire him as a contractor, if he has no workers comp insurance on his own, you are liable.  You might be able to dodge some of this if he's working on his own land, with his own equipment and he just sells you split wood, but even then it may be doubtful that you could avoid all liability.

If you want to go ahead with this, have you thought about splitting up the work differently? What about you do the chainsawing, and he uses the splitter? Getting injured by a chainsaw is seldom a minor deal, and a 16 year old working for you getting hurt by a chainsaw is certainly something that will look bad to a judge or jury if it comes to that. Getting hurt by a splitter can be bad, but a crushed finger is certainly less of an issue than losing a foot or getting reconstructive surgery if a kickback knocks him in the face.

One possibility: what about you sell logs to him, and he cuts and splits on his own property and sells it himself? Customer pickup would be easy, and he could always hire you to make a delivery if needed. He gets a real taste of running a business that way.  The downside is that you may be putting someone into competition with you - though maybe you could hire him on when he turns 18?

[justallan1]

My initial plan was to do most of the chainsaw work myself and let him do the splitting and loading.
It's starting to look like a bad idea though. A lot of times I just take my splitter to the logs and either pile split wood or load it and go right to the buyer. That way I'm only loading wood one time. ARGH!
I may just skip the whole idea altogether. I know for sure that I can split it faster myself than loading logs or rounds, hauling it somewhere and then unloading them. I just feel more work, more time and more fuel for the same money just isn't good math. :-\
Thank you all for the input.

[beenthere]

Will (or would) the ranch hire him on? Sounds like you know him and could voutch for him, and maybe give him some training. Likely he is in school so summer vacation is about over.  just wonderin....

[justallan1]

If we had any hay to cut this year it would have been possible to get him hired, but with summer break about over it's to late to even discuss it.
My job description right now is to take care of my cows, turn wrenches when needed, rest up and look for fires.
I think it was about 9 pm when I got home from one last night. I'm here tell you, those fires will just flat take it out of you. Near as I can tell, I'm not 20 years old no more.

[BradMarks]

Labor laws and liability issues really mess with trying to help someone out. We can basically look at all the litigation, the sue happy public getting "their fair share", that lands us where we are.  Probably everyone on this Forum did work as a youngster that would not be allowed today, legally. Painting houses at 14 yrs was mine. Sure wish you could help this 16 yr old, a kid willing to work is a good kid.

[John Mc]

It could still be done with the cooperation of the young fellows father. Sell the logs or blocks, buy back the firewood, lease, loan or rent the equipment by the day. With the involvement and cooperation of the father I expect your potential legal liabilities would disappear.

That would only work if his work was not done on your property. Even then, if you leased them the equipment, you may be held accountable for an injury while they were using it, unless you had a very carefully written lease.

Even if the boy and his parents sign an agreement not to sue, you still may get sued. Their insurance company has what is known as a right of subrogation, which basically means they can sue you to recover their losses, regardless of whether the boy or his family want to or not.

[NWP]

If he has a good head on his shoulders and his parents are decent people, I'd say go for it. As a society there's way to much hand wringing over "what ifs". I've had several kids like that work for me over the years. I saw one boy's dad the other day and he told me he thinks that his son working for me in high school was the best thing he's ever done. He learned how to run equipment and deal with people. Skills they can use their whole life.

[Thewoodman]

I used to pay my kids 9/hr to do whatever work I had, mostly splitting and stacking. sometimes scrap metal work too. I always told them that if I started seeing 8 dollars an hour work out there I would fire fire them. now I have one boy who works at the chevy house, another who just started a bank job(not robbing) thankfully. and finally a 14 year old that is slipping fast to the I want to lay around and watch tv crowd... he used to be my best employee. :-\

Turn it off. Tell him that girls love motor bikes and he needs to save up and buy one.

[jcl]

I also pay $9.00 plus I buy lunch and give them a pair of my old gloves.  they don't run chainsaw's. I don't need that problem they just split the wood and throw it in a pile

[nas]

There is also the option of raising your prices when you get too busy.  You might get rid of a few of the customers that always complain about price.  And at $140 a cord you could use a raise

[petefrom bearswamp]

I realize that hope is not a strategy but I pay my tail man $10 UTT and hope nothing bad happens.
He does however work safely.

[GRANITEstateMP]

I'm in a little different situation than you but I figured I'd chime in.  We do about 100ish cord a year and one of my guys I pay with wood.  He does some (not too much) bucking of big stuff that won't fit in the processor.  Helps with the wood splitter on the big / ugly stuff, and helps keep logs rolling into the process or the deck.  It's def. a little scary when I think of the liability, but then we try and work safe, and hope for the best.  It works well for both of us, I have some much needed help and he gets free / discounted wood.  One other helper that gets his wood at cost for doing other labor chores.  Both guys are pretty happy and pretty good workers.  This method helped boost production from 35ish cord to 100ish (that and the little processor!).

[lynde37avery]

When I work on my own time I get $50 for cutting and $50 for splitting a 128 cubic ft cord. With all my own equipment. If I work for my uncle it's $12 an hr cut/split. And if I'm working in the woods with his machines I get 25 a hitch and 15 for cut load. If I use my skidder and truck on his jobs it's 35 a hitch "cord" and 25 cut/load/haul home. Not much but it's his job and fuel and I get fed and I get my own firewood no charge on his job.