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If you could, would you?

Started by bkaimwood, July 27, 2015, 11:13:54 PM

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bkaimwood

If you could sell green lumber at half the potential full retail price of kiln dried, and not have to go through the hassle of drying and waiting for return on your investment, would you? I'll be more specific by saying that said lumber in question is slabs, like for tables, bars, countertops, etc...in walnut, cherry, and all the good stuff...keeping in mind slabs carry more value per board foot than standard lumber...at least in most parts of the country...so...would you?
bk

4x4American

Boy, back in my day..

longtime lurker

I hate slabs. Not so much the sawing as the storage aspect... they take up an awful lot of room for a long time, and never seem to fit the kiln so they lay around taking up valuable shed space for years. I've considered buying one of those little Sauno kilns just for slabs, and maybe if I had a kiln that could handle small loads of those odd sizes I'd cut more of them but y'know.... planks are just easier.

On the other hand I believe that selling cabinet/joinery/ flooring/ decking feedstock is a fools game. If you're going to cut it you might as well value add it as much as you can.

So to answer your question my answer would be dry and dress And value add. Except slabs. :D
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Ron Wenrich

A lot depends on how your business is developed.  I sawed in a commercial environment where we had more ready customers for green lumber then for kiln dried.  Our goal was to get the logs trough the mill and to the next customer in the shortest amount of time.  No problem with logs drying out, no end coating.  Logs came in by truck and out turn around time was usually only a few weeks, especially during the summer.  That increased cash flow and we had little loss due to degrade. 

The smaller operations have often gone the value added route by adding planers and kilns.  That is also a labor added route, as well as capital investment, degrade costs and more risk.  The longer you hold onto a piece the more risk you have.  If you are kiln drying for a specific customer, your risk is greatly reduced.  But, if you are drying on speculation, then your risk increases.  You have to have the product for a customer that you don't have yet.  That often means that you have to have a lot of product ready for sale.  There is a lot of input in labor and handling that has to be factored in.  Also, storage isn't free and there is also a carrying charge for capital tied up in inventory that could be spent elsewhere.

I think you have to be able to sit down and figure your costs before you can answer your question for your operation.  You need to know how much those additional inputs have cost you and whether the increased costs can be recovered.   We had a good customer base at the green level and could get rid of product with a phone call.  Rarely did we mill logs that didn't have a home.  Had we gone the route of kilns, the same mindset would be there.  Nothing would go into the kiln on speculation. 

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

WoodenHead

I find it interesting that you are able to sell slabs green.  Most of my customers for slabs want them dried for in-door purposes.  The best scenario is that you have a customer for a product before you saw a log, and they are there to pick up their material straight off the mill.  So, if you can sell slabs for a reasonable price, green, and turn a good profit, go for it!

I went the value-added route that Ron describes.  Lot's of inventory to carry, never enough storage space and many pieces sit a long time before a buyer comes along.  But, after a while you do get a feel for what moves and what doesn't.  Yet, moving green lumber makes the most sense from a cash flow perspective.   ;) 

Ianab

From a business point of view, do you need the cash flow?

Like, if you can make a good business model by buying logs, cutting them, selling the wood green, getting paid.. Rinse and repeat. Then you can do that. Money coming in each week or month keeps things running.

Leave the drying, planing, sanding to someone else.  You have your money and can by and saw the next load of logs, and pay your bills.

Or do you have other income streams that mean you can stay in business, (and eat) while you stack the slabs away for 12 months? In that case it may make sense to dry the wood, and sell it for a premium later.

Also, it's not an "either / or" situation. You can market the wood both dry and fresh sawn depending on the markets. This give you some cash flow now to keep the lights on and some beans on the table. Next year you have the premium stuff to sell for top dollar.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

WDH

Unless you are a larger operation with an established customer base of secondary processors that buy the green lumber, dry, it, and plane it, a small operator will have a very rough go of it selling green lumber to retail customers. 

End users don't usually have the means to dry green lumber.  Since that is my market, I have to dry the lumber and slabs.  It depends on your business plans. 

No one ever buys green slabs from me.  Having kiln dried slabs gives me a competitive advantage.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Ozarker

Around here, all the mills sell green lumber. They may have a few stacks being air dried, but there are no kilns. Most of the side lumber gets sold fairly quickly, too. They may have places to go with it, I just don't know, but they're all cutting ties, primarily. One miller told me that his side lumber pays for his logs; that the ties are free. He's only averaging 1,300 ties a week, poor fella'.

Also, he doesn't have any waste. What would normally be waste goes into the chipper, then the trailer, along with all his sawdust, and goes to the pellet plant. He even sells the cut-offs from the ties, for firewood -- $10.00 per truck load.

Only know one man with a kiln, and he's not associated with any of the mills. If you want him to dry, you have to haul to his kiln.

deadfall

It's always been a dream to sell a finished product, with all the value added, starting from a truly sustainable materials stream.  I have a small nine acre red alder woodlot I wish to manage for 50+ year old trees.  I search off the property for dead trees of many species (which are frequently free).  But, whatever I produce, I first will need some plant.  Working toward a 3300 sq. ft. main building, all of the trees for that, having been dead (except one that shared a stump with a dead one and we took both as to take the dead one, would injure the live one).  Going to build some sheds for storage and drying soon.  Being retired, and having practiced at living simply for most of my life, I don't need a lot to keep me going as I proceed.  Hope to find the right young people to make it a worker owned operation.  Everyone a boss and everyone a worker, each applying their unique skill sets for the whole. 
W-M LT40HD -- Siding Attachment -- Lathe-Mizer -- Ancient PTO Buzz Saw

============================

Happy for no reason.

WV Sawmiller

BK,

   Yes. I would sell as soon as I had a market for them. Less profit selling green but less expense and a sure thing. If they don't sell can always dry them and hold for future sale so no real downside there.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

bkaimwood

Keep it coming fellas, with a great big thank you from yours truly...I thought I would get mixed responses, which is great!!!...REALLY.... Because it helps me see things from many angles, and weigh options...cash flow is something I need right now, so consensus and my gut says sell if you can, and make a tolerable profit...keep turning material over, equals cash for logs to saw, and continue the cycle...my idealistic plan was to try to sit on this stuff, air dry for 3 months, pay someone local to kiln dry for 2 months, and be sitting on a mini gold mine with maximum profit potential when late fall/early winter strikes, and my phone starts ringing off the hook for this stuff...as with everything, there are buts and what ifs...what if this year isn't like last year, and I end up sitting on this stuff...and things get too tight? Then I'll wish I would have sold green...plus, more turnover means more nice product from my mill is getting out there, as is the word about my business, helping it grow...which is what I need right now, as I'm relatively new...so maybe the hold and dry next year, if things and $ keep heading in a positive direction, but for now sell green to further establishment and support things mentioned above? Establishing good relationships as early on as possible with a new business outweighs everything else...Sounds best to me? Thanks again fellas, and keep it coming!!!
bk

woodmills1

no cutting on speculation for me anymore.  I cut my orders from logs from pickups or go in the woods for.  Anything on stickers here is leftover from a paid job, and it is enough for the walk in trade and my repeat air dried customers.  And yes, at first I was all about retail and maximize value.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Brucer

My business is sawing timbers to order. When people want a dry timber, I tell them how many years they will have to wait before it's dry (about 8 years for an 8x8). No one wants to wait that long. For those that insist it must be dry, I refer them to a business that supplies timbers dried in a radio-frequency kiln. Most of the time (after they get over the sticker shock) they decide that green timbers might be OK after all ;D.

I pull 1" lumber (and sometimes 2" x 8") off the sides of the timbers, which I stack and sticker. There is always a market for it. I've had up to 12,000 BF in inventory, and down to zero inventory. I've even had people pay me double lumber the price to saw up timber-sized logs into 1x8.

People buy green slabs from me because they didn't plan 3-8 years ahead. I always refer them to my competitor for dry material (because he has a kiln). They usually decide green is OK after all because my quality is better. I don't tell them that -- they ask around, or look at what he makes versus what I make. I can manage that because I don't have 8 employees to keep busy, or a $100,000 whole log debarker and a $50,000 chipper to pay for.

The story would be different if there were someone else nearby with a saw and a kiln and a planer.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

5quarter

I won't sell green anything...especially slabs. I have a good reputation and want to keep it that way. A friend of mine sells exclusively slabs, both green and air-dried. Many of his customers who bought green from him complain that they were sold junk wood as it tore itself apart after only a few months in their house. they come to my place because they are through with him. And even after I explain that it's their own fault for not properly drying it first, They just won't buy from him again.
Also, Most of what I saw goes into inventory that gets used in my shop. people are free to shop my inventory, but I don't encourage them. I would prefer that they chase down the logs they need and have me saw them out. like WDH said, most retail customers can't or won't properly dry green lumber. I keep a small selection of air dried slabs that have been end trimmed and resawn (flattened), and that's it. There is no thumbing through the drying stacks.  ;)
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

bkaimwood

It's amazing and plausible how much everything varies regionally, of coarse the markets, and this industry is no exception.... But I continue to be amazed at HOW MUCH this varies...
bk

WDH

In my opinion, to sell any consistent amount of green lumber on an ongoing basis, you will have to be a supplier to another operation that uses green lumber, or dries it in their process.  Cross ties are an example.  Down here, green lumber becomes bad, ruined lumber fast if it is not quickly stickered for air drying at a minimum. 

Cutting green lumber to order is another thing, altogether, but there could be long dry spells when there are no green lumber orders unless you have developed markets for consistent take-away.

If you are just custom sawing others logs into green lumber, that is another beast altogether.   
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Ron Wenrich

In our area, it isn't all that hard to find a wholesaler that will take as little as 1 Mbf of a species.  We had problems with blue stain during warm weather, especially in our white woods.  That would mean that shipping would have to be pretty quick, or you can spray it with a solution like Kilz.  It will keep the stain away for about a week, even in tulip poplar.  Some species, like ash or walnut, there is no problem.  But, you have to have enough logs to develop enough grade to sell it green. 

Each mills business plan is different.  A lot of it has to do with costs and how much you're willing to absorb until you find the customer.  Drying does open up a customer base, but the larger cabinet makers go to wholesalers and mills that can produce a product at good rates.  We sold to a customer that dried and cut into cabinet stock.  They were doing about 25 MMbf per year and bought off of many mills.   Even the bigger mills with kilns buy lumber in. 

We have one county that has 200 wooodworking shops.  Some use green, some dry.  The difference between wholesale dry and wholesale green isn't worth chasing the market for the small producer.  The only differential would be in the specialty market.

There are a lot of businesses that do use green lumber.  Fencing, pallet, RR ties, dunnage, blocking, etc.  Most of it is in low grade.  If you're sawing low grade logs, then that's the best place for the production.  Markets vary in all regions.  You have to saw for your markets.  It's not a one size fits all industry.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

drobertson

Every thing I sell is green, or at best moderately  AD,  mostly custom orders, which often times includes random widths in regards to siding.  It depends on the customers needs.   
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

red

I think you have to start with the Grade of the Logs

higher value logs need to be kept separate and the lumber should be kiln dried

don't kiln dry low grade lumber

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