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Bad news.  Just lost both kilns in big fire!

Started by Kelvin, September 18, 2004, 06:17:01 AM

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Kelvin

Well, don't know if it will do any good to let people know about being careful, but maybe it will make someone think twice about how they construct their kilns.
Wed evening about 11pm the neighbors woke me up to tell me that my barn was on fire.  I was really worried when i saw all the flashers everywhere.  Lucky for me it wasn't my barn full of equipment, but the kilns behind it.
The were homemade solar kilns built to Dr. Wengerts plans, but i added on a trash burning wood furnace to add heat.  Well, that day i had just loaded my most expensive lumber i've had to date 10"+ wide sel and bet cherry.  I know what each board was cause i just sold the whole stack, and when the customer wanted less i told him i'd sell him 2/3, if he let me take out the big ones.  Well he didn't care for wide stuff, but i knew where i could sell them for big $$$.  So, i had just loaded the one kiln, and the other was ready to come out.  All quarter sawn white oak.  nice and tinder dry.
I was burning trash that day in the furnace, but the odd thing is that the fire cheif, and i, believe it was one of the fans in the kiln.  If you click on the link to my web page you can see the photo of my setup.  The furnace was a house type furnace and i had designed it carefully to have no contact with wood.  It was contained in a sheet metal box, and there was no burn through as the furnace looks okay after the fire.  The furnace was 12' away from the structures connected only by fiberglass insulated ductwork.  There was no wind that night, so the size of the fire created by the furnace would have a had a hard time jumping the gap between the kilns.  I had checked the furnace at 8 pm, and the whole structure was gone at 10:30ish when the firemen showed up.  don't know what happened 100%.  The fire cheif didn't think the furnace caused it suprisingly, he thought the fan in the drier of the two kilns must have burned up, but we'll never know.  
Just wanted to post for you folks that have built there own kilns.  Be real careful about using equipment designed for the enviroment they need to work in.  The fans i bought were attic fans that i thought would handle the high temps of the kiln.  I might have been wrong.
The insurance company may or may not give me something, but now i have to decide what to do in replacing the units.  They worked very well for me for over a year without much trouble, thought they did use a lot of energy b/c it took so long to dry.  A comercial unit uses more energy, but for a shorter period of time.  I think they might be cheaper to operate over the long haul.  I'm thinking of Nhyle DH unit.  
I'm still trying to get over the "worring about everything" shock.  We have the same type wood furnace in out basement of our home and its installed in the same manner.  i don't know if i'll be able to use it, but we really can't afford not to with me making a sawmillers salary.  I lost only 1,400 bd ft, but it would have accounted for a major part of my one man season as it was only my premium wood!
Its also embarassing to be in a small community when you have to explain to everyone what happened, and you can't help but think they have lost a litltle faith in you doing jobs for them.  
Luckly most of what i lost was sweat equity.  The solar kilns were real nice, but i don't know if i'll rebuild them.  
Thought you guys might want to know.
Kelvin

Tom

Sorry about the kilns and the wood, Kelvin.

I don't think you have to worry about what the customers think of you.  Most will be more concerned for your welfare than down-grading your character.  Those fires happen.  It's more common than you would think.

It could be that you will get more good advertising out of this than you would ever believe. Stay positive and let your customers see you resolving the problem.  People who didn't know you had a kiln will know now. :)

I wonder of a sprinkler system would work in a Kiln to put out a fire?

Your experience with Solar Kilns might make it worth while building another one even if you do go with a DH kiln.  Having sun-dried wood may impress a lot of customers :D

Keep your chin up, post some pictures and keep us informed as to how it is going.

(could you salvage any of the wood?)

rvrdivr

Sorry to hear this Kevin.Thank goodness you and your family are all right and you didn't lose the barn and equipment. Thanks for passing on the cautions we all need to remember but sometimes forget.

A sprinkler might be a good idea. You can get different types of sprinkler heads to "popoff" at different temperatures. The same with heat detecters for a fire alarm.

Good luck,
Brian

Jeff

Kelvin, there is no danger in your customers questioning your character. It certainly stands out in this post and I know your customers see the same thing.

Plus all of what Tom said. :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Fla._Deadheader

  I followed your progress when you were "over the fence".  ;D

  I was impressed at how you asked questions and went about building those kilns.

  No problem with your character over here, on this side of the fence. ;D ;D

  As was already stated, let us know how you make out with rebuilding. You had a good system going.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Norm

That's sure tough losing your premium wood and kilns but it is good to hear that the barn didn't go up too. I know you took some grief over the fence about using supplemental heat for the solar kilns but what you learned doing so will make the next kiln you build all that much better. As far as your reputation goes I don't believe anyone who matters will think any less of you.

Paul_H

Kelvin,
You can add me to the list of your supporters.I followed your posts both here and over the fence and I admired your ingenuity and ability.I would guess from experience,that most people in a small town will want to help you pick up the pieces rather than kick you when you're down.

I hope that you rebuild and get back to it.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

WoodChucker

Really sorry to hear about your loss, Kevin. I wouldn't worry about what people think, anyone with even half a brain knows that things like this can happen to all of us. You and yours are ok and the kilns can be replaced, even the wood can be replaced, that's the nice thing about our type of work, money just sort of grows on trees. lol. Sorry, just trying to cheer you up a bit. :)

Good luck and I really think everything will work out for you. Keep us posted.

R.T.
If a Husband & Wife are alone in the forrest fighting and no one is around to hear them, is he still wrong anyway?

JimY

 :(
Sorry about everything.  Don't beat yourself up about it.  Take it from a master second-guesser, it does no good.
Best wishes,
Jim

BW_Williams

Sorry 'bout your mishap Kelvin, really enjoyed your posts about your setup, don't worry too much about what your neighbors think, I'd be surprised if they aren't calling to see if they could help you rebuild.  Save those fans, there are people who can determine if they were the culprit.  Last furnace fire I was on, the thermal imager read over 450°F about 30 minutes after the fire went out.  Good luck, BWW
Support your local Volunteer Fire Dept.  (not by accident)
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etat

I'm thankful it wasn't your barn.  I'm thankful it wasn't your house.  I'm thankful there was no loss of life.  The kiln can be replaced, and there's more wood growing to be cut all the time.  Anything we can do to help let us know.
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

Gilman

Kelvin,
Thanks for sharing, I'm going to eventually have a kiln.  I don't know if I'll build it, or buy one.  Whatever I do, I'll take your loss into account.  Got me thinking about possibly adding sprinkler heads and order an extra Rate of Rise fire detector for my security system.  Sorry for your loss.

Gilman
WM LT70, WM 40 Super, WM  '89 40HD
Cat throwing champion 1996, 1997, 1999. (retired)

DanG

I too followed your progress with interest, as you went through your "development phase".  It will be even more enlightening to see what happens now that you have an opportunity to rebuild and make all the changes.  Looking forward with hindsight, eh? :)

I'm sorry about your loss. 1400' probably doesn't seem like a lot to some folks, but it is to a small operator who works alone.  :'(  I could say something tawdry here, like "Put it behind you", but it sounds like you're already in "recovery mode." :)   Keep us informed.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Percy

Heya Kelvin.
Sorry for what happened to your kiln(s). You have/had a pretty good system there and allthough you did lose it to fire, you have gained some knowledge. Id rebuild if I were you, using all of your" I shudda done this instead" ideas you come up with since building your kilns.

On the character thing,what everyone else said ;D. Anyone who gloats over your misfortune aint worth knowing in my opinion, so it is an opportunity to identify freinds and a**holes.

Hang in there and use this as a learning experience as thats about all you can do..
Later
Percy
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Buzz-sawyer

Kelvin
I think I know how you feel about your current home wood stove, but ......
you built your kiln RIGHT and installed wood burner correctly, ............it is really easy to get Paranoid or overly cautious at these times.......bad things happen to good people every day......not due to thier own fault....so dont try to find the fault in yourself tooo hard , "STUFF HAPPENS"  I would build a kiln like yours in a minute with no reservations, and your home furnace.............I bet you been using it for years, eh?
Don
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

oldsaw

But the advice to not dwell on it is a good one.  Rebuild and get back on track.  Look back only for reference, not to beat yourself up  over.

Now, just be glad that is all that was lost.  I'm watching my two kids play as I type this out.  You figure out real quick what is truly important.  It could have been a lot worse.

Reputation?  That guy is going to feel sorry for you as well as himself.  "Poop occurs".

So many trees, so little money, even less time.

Stihl 066, Husky 262, Husky 350 (warmed over), Homelite Super XL, Homelite 150A

Frank_Pender

   I too am joyoius that your barn and equipment did not end in a pile ashes.  Lessons are the things that can be the true educator not what someone thinks of you.   Immediately upon reading you thread I began to run through my own mind, what could there be in my system that could cause such a calamity?  As soon as these torents of rain stop today I will rechecking my own kiln today.  
Frank Pender

iain

yip bummer on the wood you lost
i got all my lecky on breakers and the kiln stuff on its own extra breakers plus those little cut outs for the supply to the heater they melt at 90c and cut the power all my drying is air and DH would like a rooski vac though ;)
good luck with your rebuild


 iain

T_in_SC

Sorry about your loss Kelvin.  Thank goodness it wasn't worse.

slowzuki

I'm sorry to hear about the loss, really frustrating :(

The sprinkler idea is nice but stickered wood is an extremely challenging fire.  The water supply you would need to supply the sprinklers would be more than the price of what you lost. :-[

Tom

QuoteThe sprinkler idea is nice but stickered wood is an extremely challenging fire.   :-[

I think the sprinklers would have to attack the fire before it got into the lumber.  Once it got into the stack, you're right, it would be a challenge. He might save something though. :-/

Jeff

I think stickered lumber would take some time to get going. A sprinkler, I would think, could pop off well before a stack of lumber became engulfed
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

dail_h

   Sorry to hear about your loss,fire sure can mess up stuff quick. The kilns at the GP mill where I work have burned three times in the last 25 years. The last time,they put in a sprinkler system with 100,000 gal storage,"lectric, and deisel pumps.Supposed to be able to drownd kiln in 3 min. Don't know who made it,but will find out
World Champion Wildcat Sorter,1999 2002 2004 2005
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Singing The Song Of Circle Again

slowzuki

You're right, if you catch it before it gets going it could probably do something, but then again maybe not.  In a kiln a deluge system would be typically be used, the densities could be 0.5 gpm/sq.ft or higher depending on some things.  That turns into a lot of $$$ to deliver the water at sufficent pressure.

I particpated in a investigation of a multi-million dollar loss at a plywood/veneer mill.  The pumps were off for a minute or so at the beginning of the fire.  It was too long, the 2 x 1500 gpm pumps couldn't keep up once they were turned back on, too many heads opened :(

Kirk_Allen

Kelvin hang in there.  Thank God you and your family is OK.  

If you need to replace the q-sawn white oak your welcome to come down to our place and we can cut what you need.  It was free to me and if it gets you out of a bind I would be glad to give it to you.

I wish I could supply you with the cherry but just about all I have is either for our remodel at the farm house or sold and waiting on getting dried.

Let me know if I can help in any way.

Kirk

Kirk_Allen

slowzuki

I think who ever did the math should be held accountable.  The main pump system should be able to support the flow requirement capacity for all the heads if it was done right.

Once the fire department gets their they can supplement the standpipe system with more water and pressure.

I did an investigation at a refinery several years ago.  Some slick salesman told them they needed 1,000 gpm nozzles on each stationary monitor around this 150' diameter Naptha tank.  Total of 12 monitors.  Once installed they open one of the valves to a single monitor.  All looked great >:(   Salesman walks out with a $15000 sale and was proud of himself.

Two months after the installation I show up.  I asked the chief what his system pump capacity was.  

"we have a 2,500 GPM pump that supplies the refinery."  

Have you ever opened up all 12 of these monitors around this tank with those fancy new nozzles?

"we opened one and it was awesome"

Lets open them all.  Thats reality if you have a fire right?

"Sure lets do it"

Once open................$#%&#*

You could hear the chief of safety screaming a mile away.

You see, with only 2,500 gpm to work with it simply couldn't  support the 12,000 gpm needed to supply all the nozzles at their rated flow.

Not a single fire stream could even hit the base of the tank let alone the rim wall.


Kelvin, You can rest assured that it was not the Kiln temperature that caused your problem.  For any of the combustable products in you Kiln it would take several hundred degrees for them to actually ignite.  I would put my money on an electrical failure of some kind in the fan.  

BW  Williams is right.  There are people who can tell you if it was an electrical faliure in the fan or not.

You should be able to contact your state fire marshal and they should be able to determine the cause.

I know in Illinois the state fire marshals office requires that the cause of each and every fire be determined.  If the department cant do it then the state will bring in a specialist to make the determination.

Kirk




LeeB

I too am sorry to hear about the fire. I was really rooting for you in your endevor, exspecially when the "big boys" told you it wouldn't work. I know all looks dark now, but don't let it get you down. I can tell from your past posts that you are a fighter and will come out on top of all this. Best of luck to you. LeeB
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

beenthere

LeeB
What, in particular, about a solar kiln like Kelvins "wouldn't work", according to the "big boys", whoever they are?  
Just curious, is all. Can't imagine solar kilns are a fire hazard in any way, and the wood burner seems to be ruled out as participating in the fire.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

sandmar

Kelvin,I am sorry for your loss.May better times await you in the near future. Chin up,the people on this forum appreciate and admire the job you did on your kiln.

Sandmar

slowzuki

Kirk, on a deluge system the pump has to flow all nozzles.  On a sprinkler system you have a density and a design area.  The design area varies with density and hazard.

The idea is the sprinklers contain the fire to one area.  In the one minute delay the fire had spread to the veneer dryers, lathe, layup and gluing press and the second dryer and warehouse.  It had started from some work happening on the core ejection / chipper line.  Veneer is different than most hazzards but the dust/chips in the building was a big culprit.

Smoke detection wired to a shop or house can go a long way to finding out something is happening before a fire breaks out, if you are there to attend to it.

There are some new water mist systems coming out with excellent performace on low water consumption.  Sort of like a pressure washer hooked up to a fog nozzle.  I've seen some manual extinguishment training videos of them, the fog is so fine the fire fighters can get extremely close without to much radiant exposure.  Ships use them in turbine rooms to keep from cracking the casings.

Quoteslowzuki

I think who ever did the math should be held accountable.  The main pump system should be able to support the flow requirement capacity for all the heads if it was done right.

Kirk_Allen

The system your talking about was developed my Marriott Hotels in conjuction with the University of Maryland Fire & Resscue Institute.  

Your correct in that it is a high pressure mist system  I had the chance to work with Mr. John Hogland at the University during the initial prototype testing. John was the director for Special projects and it was a pleasure getting to see these new systems being tested.

The challenges they are now having witht that system is that after several years they start to have leaking problems due to the high pressure.  Lots of bugs to work out but it has its place.  

One of the other projects on the table is blast glass.  Initial test showed that it did not fail with temps of 1200 F for close to 10 minutes.  I dont know the size of the explosive charge they used but I was told it was big.  No failure.  They said the blast would be equivilant to an aircraft blowing up at the passenger terminal and you could stand at the glass and watch it happen with out getting a single peice of broken glass.

Pretty neet stuff.

  

LeeB

Beenthere, I was refering to all the flack he recieved from dr. w. when he was developing his ideas. I pesonally never said it would not work. I think he has/had a good idea and I admire someone who is willing to stick thier neck out and go thier own way against convetional wisdom. If no one did this we would still be living in caves. LeeB
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

rebocardo

imo, You do not want a sprinkler in a small kiln. You want a CO2 system or halon system of the type they use in computer rooms or race cars that dump an area and rob the fire of the O2 it needs to burn. In a small enlcosed space such as a kiln, I think this would be effective especially if the fans shut off if fire temp. sensor kicked off.

I would think many kiln fires where started by sawdust that collected places you did not see.

DanG

That would be true, Rebo, except that his solar kilns were enclosed in sheet plastic. The Halon or CO2 would have been gone in a flash, so to speak.

If y'all don't thing stickered lumber will go up in a hurry, get about a dozen old pallets and stack them and set'em on fire. Be ready to jump back real quick, though. ;D  Airflow is what makes a fire burn quick and hot and that's exactly what stickering does for you.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

rebocardo

Around here they use chopped up (pine?) pallets as fire starters because it goes up so quickly. Great way to get an oak fire started.

Sheet plastic as in plastic bag type plastic or sheet plastic as in window pane plastic?

I know the polycarbonate sheet (1/4 x 48 x 96) plastic I use for various things such as windows has a flashpoint of 800 F, which is higher then the wood (600 F) it is attached to. It would contain a fire long enough for a fire suppression system to work.


J_T

Sorry to hear of your loss I too followed your building them think you got the Dr's goat a time or two :D :D Your fire reminded me of one I almost had once . I kept a box fan at the foot of my bed and once I awoke to a bright light took a few seconds to figuire it out it was the motor burning nicley :Would never though such a thing. I still run one but have lot's smoke dectors. Wish I had one with a motor like they use on gas pumps.
Jim Holloway

Kelvin

Hey, Thanks for all the support and ideas!  I'm not sure what a small guy can do to avoid fire.  The idea of a detector would be good, but by the time you got out of bed, back to the kilns, and got the water flowing (We live in michigan where it would be hard to have water ready all the time in winter)  Those tinder dry kiln buildings would probably be too far gone.  I like the idea of lower temp DH kilns.  I've been looking at comercial dehumidifiers on ebay.  Not the homeowner ones that decompose in the kiln enviroment, especially with my oak, but the ones that companies like Ebac started out making.  I figure with the info i got building my own 1000 bd ft DH kiln with a residential dehumidifier and an electric oil filled shop heater, i could possibly make a 3000 bd ft DH unit for a lot less then Nyhle charges.  I mean for $4,500 you get a dehumidifier and a heater.  Its all manual controlls anyways.  I could get a control unit from a kiln supply house.  That little unit i built in my barn, before the solar hybrids, really dried wood fast and cheap!
Well, i got more ideas than a barrel of monkeys, but if i get some insurance $ it would be easier to implement.  The Nyhle kiln looks good though.  Either way i've got to build a super insulated building, and i was just getting ready to break ground on our new home!  Guess that will stay priority one for now.
Thanks for all the ideas.  Hope it saves someone else any hassles by thinking about what they would do if something like this started on their kiln.  How do you put it out?
Kelvin

DanG

J_T, come to think of it, the fuel pump on my truck oughta make a heckuva fan motor. Probably blow the curtains off the wall, though. :D :D

Kelvin, it sounds like you just had a stroke of bad luck. I've had a bunch of motors burn out without ever causing a fire. Usually they will just trip a breaker. You may have had the circuit under-protected, or the breaker may have just failed to trip. They do that sometimes. You can double protect by using, say, a 10 amp breaker and also put a 15 amp fuse in the line. You should blow that fuse before a fire could start. You also could put your fans external and duct the airflow to the inside of the kiln if you're nervous about putting a motor in there.
One other point I want to make; You're talking about using a dehumidifier that is not built for drying wood. Just because it is "rated commercial" doesn't mean it will stand up in a kiln environment. Nyle's equipment does seem expensive, but it is made to do this job, and probably is cheaper in the long run, due to less downtime and longer life.  Don Lewis and Den Socling, along with some other knowlegable folks, have written volumes of good kiln info on the Drying and Processing Forum. I'm sure you'll read every bit of it before you rebuild, but I just wanted to remind you it is there.
BTW, keep us posted on that house building project you mentioned. I'm gonna try to build one, too, and it would be fun comparing notes along the way. :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Left_Coast_Rich

Kelvin,  Sorry to hear about your last series of events: however the last chapter has not been written yet so look up and see that your redemption is coming.  A mans character is not developed by the good times but by the hard times, only to see later that the hard times were the good times as we allow ourselves to stretch and molded by unseen hands.  Best regards to you and yours.  LC Rich.
I know more today than yesterday less than tomorrow.

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