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Small processor build

Started by DeerMeadowFarm, July 16, 2015, 03:53:51 PM

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DeerMeadowFarm

OK, I know I've been flipping between building a splitter or a processor, but I'm going with the processor. My plan is to be able to load logs 12' long onto a live deck, advance them with  hydraulic motor to the log in-feed. This will be drag fed using the splitter's cylinder. A hydraulic clamp will hold it and a hydraulic-powered saw will make the cut but I will actuate the saw by hand. The log will drop and roll onto the splitter and once split, onto my conveyor which will be driven by a hydraulic motor. I have some parts. I have a single axle trailer frame, I-beam, most of the components to build the feed and live deck and I found a Yanmar diesel (22 hp) that has an electric clutch and double sheave pulley.



  

  

 

I have some CAD drawings I've made as well which I'll post later.

Hilltop366

 popcorn_smiley, Nice find on the Yanmar!

thecfarm

Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Oliver1655

I'm watching!

-  If I am understanding correctly, you want to be able to cut while splitting & the elevator will be running full time. 

-  22hp is not a very large engine for the amount of hydraulic flow you plan on using. You will only be able to have around a 14gpm single stage pump with this engine & that is if you are only going up to 2,000 psi.

-  Here is the formula:  hp = (Q × P ) ÷ (1714 × EM)

where: Q is flow, gpm (and accounts for the pump's volumetric efficiency),

P is system pressure at full load, psi, and

EM is the pump's mechanical efficiency.

For example, assume an application requires a flow of 13.7 gpm at a maximum pressure of 2000 psi, and with a pump efficiency of 0.80. From the equation above:

hp = (13.7 × 2000) ÷ (1714 × 0.80) = 20 hp.
(http://hydraulicspneumatics.com/hydraulic-pumps-amp-motors/sizing-motors-hpus)

I hope to build a processor on a year or two so am interested in all the details you can provide.
John

Stihl S-08s (x2), Stihl S10 (x2), Jonsered CS2139T, Husqvarna 338XPT California, Poulan Microvibe XXV, Poulan WoodShark, Poulan Pro 42cc, McCulloch Mini-Mac 6 (x2), Van Ruder Hydraulic Tractor Chainsaw

hedgerow

You might want to think about running a belt driven saw since you already have the clutch on the motor. Hyd saws take a lot of GPM oil and the 22 hp is not going to pull a big enough pumps to run  the saw and splitter. Probably going to want a 28 GPM two stage for the splitter and a 15 GPM to 30 GPM for the saw motor depending on which motor you use. Then another pump to run the misc stuff.

DeerMeadowFarm

I am not planning on running the saw and splitter at the same time. As the splitter pushes the chunk through the wedge it is dragging the log forward as well. Before the splitter cylinder retracts I will actuate the clamp allowing the feed table to slide back under the log. I can only cut when the splitter cylinder has retracted fully. The only thing that would run at the same time as anything else will be the conveyor. I was thinking of running a separate pump for the conveyor and live deck. The valve for the live deck could be fed on the return line from the conveyor...? The saw, splitter cylinder and clamp cylinder would all run on the same pump but none of those functions would be run at the same time. Savvy?

DeerMeadowFarm


North River Energy

Nice motor.

You may not be planning to run the saw while the ram is moving, but after working the machine awhile you will probably wish that you could.

I like the belt-drive saw idea.  It will take more thinking as to the power train layout, but will make better use of available horsepower. Particularly if you go with a synchronous drive rather than v-belt arrangement.
Maybe run the saw drive off the flywheel end, and the pump(s) off the front?

Any idea yet on saw bar length/chain pitch? Max stock diameter?

I'd sooner have a positive traction, reversible infeed than a powered deck.  Particularly working with shorter (12') logs.  The infeed is moving wood much more frequently than the deck chains, and is a good place to pick up operating efficiency.
I would like a live deck on my own machine, and will build one at some point, but presently can roll most 16-20ft logs in by hand without much effort.

Unless you have a large stock of nasty stringy wood, a 4" cylinder with a large rod will probably be enough.  I think Surplus Center has a few on offer with favorable rod/bore dimensions, though you'd have to reconfigure the mounting arrangement...
The smaller cylinder will give you good cycle time without excessive pump volume, which leaves  you enough hp to drive a second pump for the 'accessory' functions.  You can run the conveyor off the same circuit, as it probably won't matter too much if it starts and stops on a regular basis when flow is diverted to the infeed/clamp/saw actuation etc.

Speaking of which, hand feeding the saw will get old. Your design needs to fit your budget, not a marketing price point that requires feature reduction.

You might reconsider building the splitter first, as a test run, and using that experience to better integrate that machine into the 'final' product.

Regardless, it's bound to be an interesting project. Look forward to the updates. 

DeerMeadowFarm

NRE - I hear your concerns for speed and efficiency. Remember,, right now I'm bucking logs in a pile with a chain saw, bent over, with questionable footing. I then take the chunks, lift them onto my splitter, split them and hand toss them into my dump truck. My design, while not production speed, will cut my current time significantly while saving my back and body overall. Besides, I need to start somewhere and are these things ever really done?  ;) I've enjoyed your posts and videos to see the improvements you've made along the way!
To answer your questions my plan is to use a 24" bar with .375 chain on it. This is the same set up I have on my 372 XP so having a supply of chains handy to swap out makes sense to me. By hand feeding the saw, I feel I have less of a risk of stressing the chain and can avoid going to a bigger harvester chain. My drawings allow for a 20" diameter log to go through so I am building according to the weight of a 20" x 12' log.

North River Energy

Thanks for noticing.:)
I wasn't meaning to suggest that speed, per se, is the be all/end all.  Rather, that there are ways to avoid 'dead' time in the material handling/moving process.  Ideally no part of the machine, or the operator, has to stop and wait, during which time fuel is consumed for no actual output.
Part of the design challenge is anticipating how the work flow will evolve over time, as the operator gets better at running the machine, and trying to figure out how each component choice will influence the interactions of both the 'work' and the operator with the machine to become, hopefully, synergistic.
The machine is 'done' when you can get the requisite work done with minimal fuel, minimal effort, and you get tired of working, not tired from working...

I was thinking at first that you didn't already have a splitter, but then realized that you had, in fact, been hoodwinked by one of those dime store units and started a thread on the subject. It's hard to describe the difference between operating a mass-market machine, and one that has been built to do the exact job you want to do, to your own ergonomic proportions.  It's sort of like the machine is 'transparent' because the work gets done, but you're not 'bumping into' anything along the way. Like it's there, but not there at the same time?

I didn't realize just how tiring it was to reach up and pull back on the auto cycle valve handles until I didn't have to do it anymore.
If you use a small cylinder to actuate saw travel, with a needle type flow control and adjustable relief valve on the line, you'll probably get some decent feedback on tooth load, in addition to what you see and hear.

Don't recall if you have a grapple bucket on your tractor, but if you do, then the biggest bang for your buck right off is a conveyor.  You'll need one eventually when you build either a better splitter or processor.
Even with my smallest splitter, the conveyor is a game-changer, to the extent that I should have found one sooner.
I made bucking easier on the back by using a pair of larger logs as a 'bucking table'. Said logs located in fairly close proximity to the splitter, loading the larger logs to the 'table' from the stockpile. Each block can then be moved from that height to the splitter easier than if the block was on the ground.  Those extra few degrees that you don't have to bend over make a big difference after an hour or so.

Also meant to ask if your inventory tends to run toward a particular diameter, or is it all over the place?

DeerMeadowFarm

No I get the whole efficiency chase and I'm looking forward to it. One thing they talk about at my real job is that it's better to be 30% better tomorrow than 50% better if it'll take 3 months to get there. It's all about continuous improvement.
My inventory is pretty mixed in size.
I made a pretty good score at the junkyard I visit. The guy is really cool and wants to help. He gave me valves from an old backhoe plus the seat and pedestal. He has a hydraulic fluid tank and a bunch of shaft driven pumps to pick from. He has a processor he built that I can check out as well for ideas.

North River Energy

There you go.  And this guy: ---> 8)

bigblue12v

Hurry up and build this so I can learn from you and your build. I've been scheming a processor using a 21.5 HP Kubota and we are fairly much so on the same track of our inventory being greatly varying in size. I started a thread already before I saw yours. Best of luck.
Lots of junk not enough time.. full time mechanic part time logger, firewood junkie, outside boiler owner, meat smoker enthusiast, fabricator, dad, husband

Ford_man

I think your motor is under powered , My processor has a 40 hp motor and it pulls hard when the saw is cutting .

DeerMeadowFarm

Ford man: what's the specs on your saw, saw motor, and pump supplying the saw? Are there multiple functions happening while your saw is cutting?
Thanks

DeerMeadowFarm

Well, I managed to get back on this project. I had some elbow surgery and I'm still trying to get all the hay cut so I've been wicked busy. Anyway, I dragged the trailer down to the barn and managed to get one of the angles fitted in where the trailer needs support/beefing up. There will be another one running the length on the other side of the trailer as well.
 

 

I'm not a welder by any stretch of the imagination. Most of my welding consists of repairing farm stuff when it breaks using a stick welder. I bought a small Lincoln welder a while back but never had a chance to play with it much. I get some welds that look like this:


 

Then I get welds like this:


 

It seems as though the wire comes out herky-jerky when I'm getting those crappy welds. Liner in gun need to be replaced? Something to do with the tension on the wire spool?

Hilltop366

For this stuff I would be inclined to go with a stick welder, get the right amperage setting and you can let the rod do its thing while moving the rod a little bit from the frame to the new steel to get good penetration on both pieces.

With the mig things should be really clean including the ground, you have a lot less amperage to burn through the rust and scale with a mig. Other things that can cause this are loose connections on the cables (on the machine and on the ground clamp, poor ground, slipping drive wheel, wrong feed speed and more. There is a felt that you can buy that goes on the wire that you apply a lube to as well as directly on the spool of wire to keep the wire from sticking.

North River Energy

 Your spool of wire may have rust starting on the first few layers.  There are clip-on cleaning nubs available from most welding supply outfits, or you can clamp a 1" wrap of Scotchbrite to the wire ahead of the feed rolls with a small hose clamp. If you go that route, use a small bore fender washer ahead of the scuffer to keep it out of the works.

Also try a simple weave rather than straight bead.
And grind the scale off the 'new' metal. (You may have, but can't really tell from the photos).

DeerMeadowFarm

Thanks guys! I'll play around and see if I can get it running better.

GRANITEstateMP

I know you said it's a work in progress so I thought I'd throw in my two cents!  I've got a Hakki Pilke 1x37, nice pretty simple processor that has a lot going on but nothing too fancy.  A couple of guys said you might be underpowered on your motor, not too shore but I've got a couple ideas.  The saw on the Hakki is belt powered, it runs off a 3 belt pulley on the hydro pump.  Trying to remember the exact setup but the point is the saw runs off the belts, no hydro powers gets wasted.  The bad, the saw is constantly going, the machine has real good safety guards but things happen and I wish there was an easy fix for that.  Just a suggestion, I know that there are some video's on the magic internet machine that can give you a better idea of what the machine can do than my explanation.  Looking forward to pics following your build.
Hakki Pilke 1x37
Kubota M6040
Load Trail 12ft Dump Trailer
2015 GMC 3500HD SRW
2016 Polaris 450HO
2016 Polaris 570
SureTrac 12ft Dump Trailer

Gearbox

Don't worry about power just size your pump to the avaible HP . Or less if you are  not going to run it wide open . I would run a 2 stage on one end for the splitter and a single stage for the controls on the other end  . A 16 gal 2 stage on my splitter is faster than I can get the wood to it .
Gearbox
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

Wallys World

DeerMeadowFarm - When you adjust your wire speed a good indication is to listen to the sound, it should sound like bacon frying. Are you running flux core or straight wire with a gas? If you are running a gas, even the air movement around you will lessen the shielding effect that it is spouse to have. It just takes a little practice and you will have it down.
Wood-Mizer LT28G25, Wood-Mizer EG10 Edger, Wallenstein Timber Talon log loader trailer, Wallenstein GX640 wood splitter, Wallenstein WP835 Fire Wood Processor, Kubota BX 22 TLB, JD 445, JD Gator, Home made arch, Stihl 024 Super, MS251, MS311, MS440 Magnum & MS660.

thecfarm

herky-jerky? Kinda stops feeding and than all at once will just jump out quick?
I buy a 10 pound spool and it does not rust on me. Might last 6 months to a year.
I do all my welding outside,so I use flux core. I have a Lincoln SP-175T,probably had it for 10 years now. This one runs off 220,the first one ran off 110. BIG difference in what I can do with it. I doubt the liner needs attention. I had to buy another drive wheel for mine. That helped out with the herky-jerky stuff.Has bigger better teeth? I forgot now. I run .35 tips and .30 wire. I weld just about all rusted metal with mine. Have built a few things and have not had to go back and reweld,so I must be doing something right,even though I don't know what I am doing.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

DeerMeadowFarm

I am planning on a 2 stage pump for the splitter and a single stage for the rest; does that sound correct?
I am running wire with Argon. My welder is a 110 volt Lincoln Pro-Mig 135. I have a stick welder but the material on the trailer frame is pretty thin (that's why I'm beefing it up with the 1/4" angle) and I was afraid I'd blow through it with the stick. I have no formal welding training so I'm just learning as I go....although I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once!  ;)

shamusturbo

100% Argon is  the incorrect cover gas. You need a 75%/25% (Argon/CO2) mix gas if you are welding with typical filler metals (wire). Almost all MIG welders have a chart on the inside cover that flips up to reveal the spool and drive wheels. It should give you exact perimeters for welding on certain thicknesses. If it doesn't, find one online. It should include heat setting, wire speed, correct cover gas, and gas flow rate for parent material thickness and wire feed thickness. You also need to make sure you have the correct drive wheels, liner, and tip. 0.30" vs 0.35" and so on.

Someone already mentioned too that with MIG, save yourself agony later down the road and make sure everything is clean and rust free. It's very simple. If you want to weld through rust, jump back to Stick welding and use a 6010, 6011, 7010, 7011 stick.

I'm excited to see more updates as well! The youtube video that you are working off of is very interesting! That is one I have NOT seen. I have built a handful of splitters and skidsteer attachments and firewood odds and ends but never ventured into building a processor. You are a very brave soul.   
Stihls 660,461,460,390,200T
Duramaxs 04 CCLB,15 CCFB DW
Gators- TS Loaded
Timberwolf TW-5
CRD Loco 20
CAT 287B

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