Advice on skidding logs with a backhoe

[gww]

I believe they will be starting on a lake build for my brother very soon.  I think they are going to work with us a bit on getting some of the trees out.  I would be curious on what the opinions are on getting the logs out in best shape using a standard back hoe.

My thoughts on the use of the logs will depend on how many big ones that are salvaged.

One thought is to haul the best to a mill and take the money and for me to saw the dogs with my hobby mill. 

A differrent thought is to keep them and try to saw all of them.

The way I have used the back hoe so far is to cut the log to whatever lenth I am going to use and then wrap a chain around it and carry it with the bucket.

The builder says he is going to start by clearing the really small stuff.  He mentioned laying down the bigger stuff and then backing off a bit to let us salvage what we wanted.

I guess my questions would be
1.  would it be better to try and move the longest logs that the back hoe can handle to a staging area and then decide what they will make log wise when we have the time to do it correctly?

2.  Is using the loader and a chain the fastest most efficiant way to use a backhoe for skidding loggs?

My mill as it is, has a 13' 9" max cut length as it is now.  If selling to a mill and getting a long strait tree, maby 16' would be worth more money.

Nobody involved really cares how I handle it though if I did sell to a mill it could help a bit on cost.

My uncle is going to help for free if I pay $200 to move his backhoe and my dad also has a backhoe on location.  It will be between 3-4 acres and I bet their are (inexperiance guess) $2000 or more worth of good trees.

I know I have circled this subject in a few other threads but it is now going to happen this month or next and I need to get my mind right.

Any thoughts that you might want to give to a guy that really has zero experiance would be appretiated.
Thank you
gww

[Hilltop366]

Backhoes don't steer well with weight on the back fastened to the rear bucket, a dry short run might be ok.

I have picked logs up with the rear bucket and turned them to the side and drove out the woods before but then you only get one log at a time.

I guess you could chain a log on each side to the front bucket and the rear leg and drive out with the logs off the ground to keep them clean?

[fishfighter]

I use my bucket on my hoe. No trouble using straps if you have hooks welded on the top side of the bucket.

If you get in a hurry and have the space, I would stage them by grade and trees. Seal the ends. Take trash trees to put down first to stack the logs on top on them to get the good logs off the ground.

Saw them babies up after. 8)

[tmarch]

With your equipment listed I'd move ALL the logs out of the way and then sort and sell or keep whatever you want to cut.  Easier to do it when you aren't in a hurry and can actually think it out. 

[gww]

Hill..
Dads back hoe won't steer going up a hill with no load due to weight in the back.  It is not 4 wheel drive.  It is slow as mollassis. 

Fish...
Hope you are doing well.  I have carried a 9 foot 26 inch diamiter on bigg end log chained to the bucket and a 13 foot 19 inch diamiter log (not at the same time)  and it is strong enough.  I picked them up and carried them.  I do have the helpful quick connect places to put a chain to.  I do wonder if I want to leave the loggs as long as the tree and cut to length in the staging area? 

I am thinking that if I cut the logs in the woods that I should try to drag the small enough ones with the kabota which I think is only about 30 horse power or less.  I have not had to drag a log yet cause I have been taking out one at a time and didn't want the dirt on them.  I believe I do need to move as fast as I safely can.  I though in places that my truck would go that it might work to drag. It is a dodge deisel. 

The tracktor and truck would be fastest but also maby dirty the logs more and not carry as much or as long.


I also thought that in the places I can get a trailer and truck I might load 4 logs at a time on the trailer.  Some of the places will be pretty hairy and those might take the lake dozer to move if he will.

I have lots of staging area.  I will probly put it in a 5 acre feild that has access to the black top.  I might get to where I have to move twice due to really needing to move fast.  It is not that I don't believe the lake guy won't charge more if I slow him down to much.  (says he will work with us)  I don't want him to be put in a bad position. 

How small should I try to save?  except for ceader I have yet to cut a log less then 11 inch diamiter.  Should I save to that small/smaller?  I would say there are some good 20 to 25 inch logs of mixed quality.  Maby some bigger but I hate to say cause the last 26 inch log I cut I thought was about 40 inches till I measured it.

Thank you for the ideal to put some junk logs under my good ones.

I have been cutting long and painting the ends with latex paint with the intent to shorten when used.  Maby not the best but what I have lots of.

I guess one of my big questions is should I cut 16 foot if the tree lets me knowing I will waste 4 foot if I make lumber on my mill and don't sell any to other mills. 

Dad thinks if we can come up with ways to use the wood that I should just cut it on my mill.  They are the ones spending the money on the lake with my brother so I don't have to sell the logs but it might make sence to sell if the logs were nice enough.  I cut pretty slow on my mill.  I am excited about getting enough logs to keep me busy though.

You can tell I am excited but I also know how slow I have been getting logs so far and really need to get these laying somewhere out of the way as fast as posible.

Thanks for the comments
gww

[gww]

T
Yes I agree move to a field and then worry.  I am worried on the moveing part and how to do that fast.  Second, I am worried on what to move.  A log as long as I can carry or try to cut to lenght and get out.  I spent two days reading the forest logging publication that covers grading and lenght and drying, bla bla bla.  I retained very little cause I don't always understand what I am reading or the jargan till I read it 100 times.  I did notice they where using 24 foot logs in there examples of how to split up for grade.

Thanks
gww

[tmarch]

Move everything as long as you can and then sort for length, saves time and again worry about the length later.  If the mills will take 16 footers fine if not your mill will.  Just remember to cut long 16 foot =17 foot etc.

[fishfighter]

Move everything as long as you can and then sort for length, saves time and again worry about the length later.  If the mills will take 16 footers fine if not your mill will.  Just remember to cut long 16 foot =17 foot etc.

For sure, cut long. If just stacking, a 30hp tractor will not have a problem dragging a log. If it has a 3 point hitch, use that along with a chain to lift one end and drag away. I use a little ford 2000 tractor at times to drag logs too.

[gww]

t and fish
I don't know what the mills will take yet as I have not checked.  I don't take but 13' 9" right now.  I guess I am going to get the trees dirty and drag.
Thank you guys for the comments.
gww

[plowboyswr]

When we had an area cleared and wanted to keep the logs we had the crawler operator push the trees out then I would walk in and cut the root ball of and limb it, hook on and drag tree length into the wide open pasture while the crawler shoved the refuse into the pile and lay me another tree down. Then after the operator went home for the day I would go through and buck everything to lenght, decide what to cull, make fire wood out of,ect. There are going to be some trees that you don't  want to do anything with so the easiest thing is to grab some spray paint and mark the ones you want to keep first. If the crawler has other things to keep busy with the better. Once you get the hang of the timing of how fast he can work it won't be to hard to stay out of each others way

[gww]

Plowboy
Very helpfull post.  Did you get a lot of dirt on the logs doing it one tree at a time?  If I was not saving the trees would the dozer normaly move one tree at a time if it is big?  Did you mark the trees before any work started?  The field I would like to stage in would be above the lake but most likely the brush would be moved down to the center and mostly burned though there is some talk of using some for fish cover.

Still I will need to get with the guy running the dozer.  I believe the plan is for him to start by taking out all the small stuff first.  Only the bigger stuff will be left if I understand correctly.  They will then follow up taking the big stuff out.  I am not sure yet if they do this with bigger equiptment or the same that they used to do the small stuff.  I have only talked to them one time prior to them submitting thier bid.
Thanks
gww

[Beavertooth]

Just keep in mind to get the best lumber you need to mill your best trees. 

[plowboyswr]

Gww the crawler that was working for us was a loader and he could push on the upper part of the trees then hook the the root ball with the bucket. I was hooking on the butt ends with the three point of the tractor and picking them up and we were keeping everything down to the size of my leg for fire wood so that only the trim stuff was on the ground. So the logs stayed fairly clean. Also this was in the dry time of year in an area that doesn't  have much rock and by the time we got done bucking, loading, and unloading the dirt that was there had been knocked off. Yeah we marked the trees we wanted left, and the ones I cut and we took the operator through and showed him to make it absolutely clear. Everything else in the area was fair game for the crawler. Every crawler operator that I have seen works one tree at a time.

[fishfighter]

One thing to keep in mine is that if you stack the logs and seal the ends, keep them off the ground in storage, after a year or so, the bark will start falling off along with the dirt. ;D

Do you have any plans for any of the finish lumber or a place to store it out the weather once sawed?

Marking trees to keep, 99 cent cans of spray paint, painted about 5' up so the operator can see the marks.

You can hire someone to come in and do a walk thru to get a better idea of what the timber is worth. 

[justallan1]

If it were me I'd have the equipment operator let me know the very minute that I had enough room to work around him and go like heck bucking and dragging for all your worth. I wouldn't grade a thing until I was chased off the worksite, then go and do your grading and staging when you have everything that you possibly can and the rush is over.
In my opinion if your diesel truck is 4WD it should be able to pull faster than a backhoe or small Kabota. My '93 ¾ ton diesel will drag 50' and longer logs without a problem. Just leave enough on the butt to lop off when you go to stage and grade because that first few feet will be be plumb full of dirt.
I hope it all works out for you.

[gww]

I talked to my brother last night and the way he remebers the conversation, they where going to clear the small, then knock over the big, then leave and give us a chance to salvage what we want.  The guy building the lake is the cousen of the guy that is farming dad acrage.  I believe as long as I don't add a lot extra of work to them they would push the trees to a flat area to work on.  I just need to talk to them.

The trees are some of them in a hilly area.  There is a flat feild above and below the wooded patch. The above has good road access.

I do not have a good place to store the cut lumber.  We may have a use for some of it as they want to build a small shed/cabin and a dock.  There is some discussion on wether the wood can be used on the dock or wether we would have to pay to have it treated or just buy box store treated lumber.  My thoughts are that at least for the decking on the frame of the dock the oak could be used cause if it turns out a mistake you would have easy access to replace boards.

My lean to is about full though I may in a month or so be able to buck stack some in a barn or something and start over.  My brother has two lean toos in the woods that used to selter animals that are in pretty bad shape but would probly be good for stickering a lot of lumber.  I have been cutting my boards close to finnished lumber specs, incase we need to mix and match with bought lumber due to short falls.

If I don't move my mill to the trees and cut at my house, I do have a power washer.

Mostly, some of his trees are nice enough that it was killing me (now that I am interested) to see them just piled to rot or burn.  Lots of small trees but it is on a creek bottom and has been cut long enough ago that there is some good timber also.

It really doesn't matter about the value of the trees cause it has some value and I wanted to save them anyway.  I do believe there is some value to some of them and (no expert oppinion) but am thinking if hauled to a mill, probly a couple thousand.  The bad part is he has a more then normal percentage of piggnut and hickory.

I can't really tell the species of trees very well so I don't know what is all there. It is only at most 4 acres. The trees are smallest on the real steep parts of the land. 

I am thinking that the $200 to move my uncles backhoe may not be worth it except it gives me one skilled operator who said he would help for free and whos backhoe is twice or more (in his hands ) faster then dads.

I could see a backhoe being really useful in the staging area after the logs are there and expesialy if I move the logs to my house.  I think finding faster ways to drag to the staging area is smartest even if it is hooking to the dodge and just flooring it.  (3/4 ton 4x4)  Some of this could depend on what the ground looks like after the small stuff is out of the way.  Dads back hoe is really helpless unless it is perfectly dry and if not working from a stationary position, flat.

Dad has about 7 or 8 chainsaws that need sharpened between now and then also.

I was thinking that the lake guy would have enough comon sence to know a good tree but may mark them.  I have a son inlaw that has a forestry degree and is an intermedium between land owners and loggers.  He live three hours away though and has a new baby and I probly won't bother him.  He had his chance while turkey hunting and didn't get it walked through.  I don't care totaly cause I am such a poor worker and believe there may be some waste when I run out of steam.  I am going to do my best to get as much as I can but my experiance so far is I am pretty slow.

It has taken me a couple months to cut about 20 or so logs (and building a little shed).  I have never yet got more then two trees cut and moved to the mill in one day.

I know this is a little differrent cause I will just be dragging out of the way to work on later.  It doesn't change the fact that I am still a wimp.

I thank you guys for bringing up things that I might not have known.  Like bark and dirt might go with time if I cut slow. 

I appretiate all comments.
Thanks
gww

[Ox]

gww - I don't have much more to add to this thread but I wanted to let you know I was following along.  What the other guys said and what you have come to conclude sounds right to me.

The way I look at things sometimes is right or wrong, at least I'm taking action and not sitting on my hands.  It all works out in the end.  After all, don't we always work with what we've got?  If all you've got is a hammer then everything looks like a nail.

[gww]

Two things.

1.  Some of the trees might actually be too big to work up on my mill and so there may be some selling.  We did take a rout to a staging area that I can get my truck and trailer to and move maby four or five logs at a time.  It will have to be dry and is pretty far but should be easy. So we can stage the trees in two good areas.

2.  Is it worth saving sycamore and elm for cutting?  A couple of big ones but I don't know if they make lumber or not. 

Out of all dads chain saws, there is only three that are in good enough shape too sharpen.  So I will have four saws to work with before having to work on them.

After looking it over again, I am becomming more confidant that things are going to go pretty good.  The worst part is that it is going to be 1000 degrees for as long as I can see.  I bet things get going in the next few days.  The ground is drying much faster them I thought it would.

I will try to remember to take a picture or two of what we end up with (maby).

Thanks for the help.
gww

Ps Hi Ox

[Ianab]

2.  Is it worth saving sycamore and elm for cutting?  A couple of big ones but I don't know if they make lumber or not. 

Although they can present some challenges to saw and dry they are very good woodworking woods. Quarter saw the sycamore to show the grain, and cut the elm a bit oversize so you can machine out any movement during drying.

Do some searches and you will find some very nice stuff made with sycamore or elm.

That's what I meant about saving "non-commercial" species to saw yourself. If the mill doesn't want sycamore, or aren't paying much for it, then that's something you can saw and use yourself (or sell to local woodworkers later).  You should still end up with some nice logs in the "saw ourself" stack, just they are ones the mill isn't going to pay good money for, for various reasons.

This is a pic WDH posted a while back of a Q-sawn sycamore board.



So it's certainly worth messing with 

[gww]

Ianab
Cool, thanks for the post.  I have no ideal about the mills around here or if there even are any.  I sure have seen two loads of impressive logs being hauled by others recently.  One was like a double tracktor trailer like rig with both trailers stacked full of what looked like all big logs and the other was a grain type truck with about 4 rows of logs that were also big so I know some one is buying.  The last time I stoped by a mill was 25 years ago and at that time they where paying the same for everything they accepted regardless of tree species.   I am not sure what the market might be or how to cut the logs for it as I haven't got that far and am not totally sure how to start looking.  I got busy but was going to try and do an internet search and I might call and see if my son in law has some kind of list though mostly he works out of springfield.

So if anyone has ideals on marketing the logs or where mills are let me know.  When I locate one I will ask what they pay and what they want.  As I drive by places that used to have mills, I am going to see if they are still there.

I do have one flaw in my mill when it comes to quarter sawing.  I can only cut seven inches deep with the mill so making large cants with it won't work well unless I don't want wide boards or use a chain saw which I have never did yet.

I thank you very much for your answer.  I did do a search of this site with the word sycamore but your answer was better.  About the elm.  I only mentioned it cause both trees are white and I wasn't 100 percent sure of my trees.  I believe it is sycamore cause all the elm died of 30 years ago and these are live trees. 

My dad and me where looking and he told me they where sycamore but I couldn't remember when I typed the post you answered.

Lots of big dang hickory too.
gww

[sandsawmill14]

Just keep in mind to get the best lumber you need to mill your best trees. 

x2 

[gww]

sand....
I am very excited to get some logs in one place that I can saw at will.  I do think that at some point I will run out of places to store and things to build and will not be a salesman and get rid of them.  I just retired 2 years ago and don't want another job but don't mind a really busy hoby and would like to be able to build what I want when I want.  I do know though, if you store the boards and never use them you have to store them good and they may go bad.  I have seen recently on craigs list a couple of bulk sales where a hobiest finally got tired and wanted rid of his boards.  Some looked like it would be cheaper then the gas to cut my own.

I don't know the happy medium yet.  I also think for the type of construction I do that the really nice furnature grade stuff will sorta be wasted.  I am greedy and want them all but am not sure with my mill and plans that that makes sence.  I think the prime trees might (maby) make better use if sold and I cut the dogs.  I really don't know.  I want to get up and cut one log a day around my other stuff with out having to go get trees.  I am enthralled with the cutting.  I want to make enough money to buy blades and another motor when mine blows up but don't really want more then that cause then it is a job.  I would like this hoby to pay for its self till I get tired of it but don't want a job.  Same with my chickens, bees and solar so far.  I pretend I am danial boon and living off the land if I can do what I like for free.

I really don't know what I am going to do.  I am going to look at what we end up with, think about my and my mills capabilities, then make a decision.

I want to cut the best but may not need the best wood for my uses.  Right now I want to cut it all but that may be stupid of me.  I have found when building that 20 logs really don't go that far.  I do already have about another 8x10 sheds worth of boards all ready cut and am not tired of it yet to my wifes dismay.
Cheers
gww

[plowboyswr]

If you want to sell part of your logs stage them in tree lenght. Check your local paper and Craigslist for timber buyers (I see adds all the time) most of them will come out and look at the logs decide where to buck them. Then scale them on the spot. Their trucks will come pick 'em up later. At least that's how all the logs we've sold have been done.

[gww]

plowboy
I tried it.  There are two listings.
Thanks for the suggestion. 
gww

[Ianab]

I do have one flaw in my mill when it comes to quarter sawing.  I can only cut seven inches deep with the mill so making large cants with it won't work well unless I don't want wide boards or use a chain saw which I have never did yet.

Looked at your gallery and I see what you mean about the mill, bit of limitation with the cut depth.

But I think you could still cut some Q-sawn boards though.

What I would do is open the top of the log like normal, until you have a clear face. Maybe take a board or 2, depending on the log size. Then cut off a 7" D, and put it aside.
Flip the log and repeat.
Now the central third of the log can just be sawn "through and though" Later you edge and rip out the pith that's in the boards, and will be left with good Q-sawn boards.
Then load the D piece back on the mill, standing upright. Saw some narrow rift sawn boards, some 7" wide Q-sawn boards, and some more rift sawn.
Repeat with the second D.

It wont be perfect, but no quarter sawing method is. It's also more work, but again any method that involves a band saw takes some extra handling, no matter how you do it.

It would just be pity to cut up a perfectly nice sycamore for firewood, just because you don't have a ready market for the log, when a bit of messing around can get you some good (and very saleable) boards from it.