Just Got My First Bill from a New Sawyer

Glenn1 · July 12, 2015, 10:36:27 PM

I found a new sawyer who charges $50 per hour. I sent him walnut, cherry, and poplar and they were nice clean logs. Depending on the scale, I sent 952 bf by Doyle or 1360 bf by the Int'l standard. The logs ranged from 10" to 14" with one 17".

He have me a bill for $1100. >:( That comes out to almost 90 cents per bf! I was expecting his $50 per hour charge to get me around 120 bf per hour.

Can I get some opinions.

Blackgreyhounds · July 12, 2015, 10:43:03 PM

That's way too pricey. Find a new sawyer or get a price/bf next time.

Magicman · July 12, 2015, 10:47:50 PM

I had to delete what I first wrote. I have no idea what your agreement was with the "sawyer" but a serious conversation is in order. 22 billed hours to saw ~1200 bf is seriously wrong or he is charging for much more than sawing.

4x4American · July 12, 2015, 10:53:14 PM

If I'm custom sawing someone's logs at my place I charge $0.30/bdft for softwoods and $0.35/bdft for hardwoods...so to me, he seems wayyy high!

Need more details though, is he setup on your site, did you bring the logs to his place, what was your agreement, did you sign a contract? etc etc

uler3161 · July 12, 2015, 11:01:54 PM

Wow. I don't cut much hardwood here in Idaho, but even I know that is crazy. Wow. Is this guy new to sawing? The only way I'd ever send a bill that large is if the logs had nails every foot.

Glenn1 · July 12, 2015, 11:04:33 PM

I brought the logs to his place. I did bring my own stickers so he could stack with them. I also left my trailer for him to stack.

The trees came from a large tract where where I don't think one nail exists. It was very rural.

Glenn1 · July 12, 2015, 11:09:39 PM

Quote from: Magicman on July 12, 2015, 10:47:50 PM
I had to delete what I first wrote. I have no idea what your agreement was with the "sawyer" but a serious conversation is in order. 22 billed hours to saw ~1200 bf is seriously wrong or he is charging for much more than sawing.

I'd love to hear what you first wrote. I am very aggravated to say the least. How is anyone supposed to make a profit with prices like these?

deadfall · July 12, 2015, 11:18:38 PM

Could be you are making his mill payment and boat payment with moorage too.

beenthere · July 13, 2015, 12:04:43 AM

If it took him 22 hours, then the bill is correct. You agreed to pay $50 per hour. Maybe he saws fast but stickers lumber slow. Or saws slow, and stickers slow too.
From your earlier posts, you had a very particular set of guidelines for sawing your logs. Maybe that made the job more tedious and quite slow, being he's a new sawyer.

Best suggestion would be to find a different sawyer.

Not much recourse unless you know he didn't spend the 22 hours as he said. As I see it.

Did you explain to the new sawyer how many bdft you estimated using Doyle and Int'l rules, and that the logs should yield about 1300 bdft of lumber? Or maybe not?

Gideon_70 · July 13, 2015, 12:10:50 AM

Quote from: beenthere on July 13, 2015, 12:04:43 AM
If it took him 22 hours, then the bill is correct. You agreed to pay $50 per hour. Maybe he saws fast but stickers lumber slow. Or saws slow, and stickers slow too.
From your earlier posts, you had a very particular set of guidelines for sawing your logs. Maybe that made the job more tedious and quite slow, being he's a new sawyer.

Best suggestion would be to find a different sawyer.

Not much recourse unless you know he didn't spend the 22 hours as he said. As I see it.

Honestly, if he's a new sawyer, he's going to be really slow. He might even be on here, trying to figure out how much to charge! I would talk to him and let him know that he's way way way above going rate, and see what he says.

YellowHammer · July 13, 2015, 12:17:56 AM

Quote from: Glenn1 on July 12, 2015, 11:09:39 PM
I'd love to How is anyone supposed to make a profit with prices like these?

I don't know, seems like he is doing alright.
Time to talk to him and find out why the bill was so high. Also, shift over to your other sawyer.

Percy · July 13, 2015, 01:12:26 AM

FRom your numbers, my guzzintas say he got you around 1250 bdft.Even if he had to powerwash all the logs and metal detect them, it seems unreasonably pricey...Im wondering ifn I could come work for you :D .....you pay high :D so high you could hunt ducks with a rake.... :D :D :D

SawyerBrown · July 13, 2015, 02:33:54 AM

So when you say "new" sawyer, do you mean new to sawing or new to you? (Or both?)

If he's new to sawing (and you knew that), then agreeing to an hourly rate was probably not a good idea in the first place, since he's probably still on the steep part of his learning curve.

Certainly that would be a ridiculous price for "sawing", but he's doing a lot more than that, isn't he? (Loading, sawing, off-loading, stacking/snickering, disposing of flitches, etc).

The other thing I'm wondering about is the huge difference between Doyle and International, which suggests a lot more small logs than bigger. It takes a lot of 10" logs to get that many total bf! (I have a special name for logs less than 12" -- it's called "firewood" ...). Also, were they reasonable length, or were there some 4'-ers in there?

So while my first impression was "Holy Smokes!!", I'd need more info to say he's way out of line (which still may be the case).

beenthere · July 13, 2015, 02:44:49 AM

Might help understand better by reading up on some of the background Glenn1 posted in another post.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,84429.msg1290586.html#msg1290586

May or may not have anything to do with it.

SLawyer Dave · July 13, 2015, 02:45:33 AM

I have no experience with the pricing to have an opinion, but as a business attorney, my advice is always to talk with the guy to see where he is coming from. While it is probably too much to believe it was just a mistake on pricing, sometimes you need to question a bill. If he advertised $50 an hour, then have him explain how this took 22 hours. Get as much information as you can, so that you can determine your best course of action.

bkaimwood · July 13, 2015, 05:22:36 AM

Did he also clean the boards one by one as stickered, and wax the ends?

Bruno of NH · July 13, 2015, 05:35:14 AM

Stacking and stickering is not for free at my mill .
I tried it that way and I'm not doing it for my sawing price it's extra .
Just my 2 cents
Jim /Bruno

Peter Drouin · July 13, 2015, 06:10:11 AM

The sticking is where your money is . It takes just as long to do that is cutting the logs.
Next time tale the mill and you will see and save some money.

Seaman · July 13, 2015, 07:21:46 AM

Sorry you hit a bump in the road,Go see the fella and have conversation about it.
I'm also thinking it's the wood handling that got you. It can double your time spent on a log, and those were not real big logs. My first thought is you paid him .45 a bf for sawing and .45 a bf for stickering and stacking. You might want to go offbear next time ;)
My two cents for what it is worth. Hope it all works out to be a good relationship!
Frank

scsmith42 · July 13, 2015, 07:28:08 AM

If the new guy has a manual mill, coupled with inexperience, log handling time (for a lot of small logs), and the time spent to clean boards and sticker, I can see where it would take him 22 hours.

His milling time was probably only 1/3 of his total time. Log handling another 1/3 and stickering the third third.

You will save $ by stickering yourself, and using a miller with a hydraulic mill.

Magicman · July 13, 2015, 07:54:36 AM

Something is missing. You added the bit about stickering the lumber on the trailer which added labor, but no matter what, 22 hours is too long to do an 8 hour maximum job. What were the log lengths?

WV Sawmiller · July 13, 2015, 08:01:24 AM

Glenn,

Sorry for the "sticker shock". As mentioned above I'd talk with him and ask what drove the price so high. By the way how many bf did he actually produce. You mentioned diameters but what about lengths? Short logs take longer to saw also because of extra handling.

I charge $60/hr when I use an hourly rate for special cuts and such but last time I sawed hourly the customer was stacking and was there the whole time so he never batted an eye when I handed him the bill.

Good luck.

Glenn1 · July 13, 2015, 08:26:53 AM

The logs were all 8'6" in length. The sawyer has been doing this for a around 4 years so he is not new in the industry. Just new to me.

He told me that if he was going to saw my logs in between his other jobs. He also said that if he flat stacked the boards, they could get mold if they sat for a few days until I could pick up the entire load. Based on what he said, I brought him 200+ kiln dried stickers.

The downside was I gave him mostly logs with a diameter of 10-14 inches. All the logs had anchorseal from the logger who cut them.

Glenn1 · July 13, 2015, 08:31:10 AM

First he cut the poplar that I will be using for skids. It sat for 3-4 days until he could get to the walnut and cherry. Was he correct that the poplar could get mold if it was flat stacked without stickers?