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Up-coming hickory - I'm nervous (SOLD)

Started by WV Sawmiller, July 12, 2015, 10:22:29 PM

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WV Sawmiller

Guy told me today he wants me to saw 2 scaly bark hickory logs for him in next week or so when his schedule permits. I had seen them and talked with him before. Measured it and it is 30" on big end and a little over 13' long. Within limits of my mill but diameter is getting close. Smaller log is about 8' and 24" or so. Says it has been cut a year. It looks solid. I'm assuming a 4 degree blade is what is called for. I've read others talk about how hard hickory is and not sure how much more seasoning it has done over the last year. Sounds like he may want some 8/4 slabs. We will see when we open it up.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Magicman

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on July 12, 2015, 10:22:29 PMI'm assuming a 4 degree blade is what is called for.
Yes, Hopefully you have some 4° blades on hand.   ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

WmFritz

I was nervous about sawing some shag bark logs last winter. My BIL needed 1000 sq. ft. for paneling and I said I'd saw them. With help from the FF's calculator, we cut 1100 board feet of logs. They only averaged 16" on the big end  and 10-12 feet long, but with sub-zero night time temps, I was concerned how frozen hickory would saw.

Before we brought the logs to my sawmill, my BIL stopped by the local mill shop to schedule the processing. While explaining what he was doing, the mill owner said he might think about having a nearby Amish sawmill process his logs. They charge .12¢ a board foot.
Don called me and I said let them saw them. I planned to spend twice that amount on a box of 4° blades. When he picked up his sawn lumber, he had exactly 1000 bd. ft. and the bill totalled $126.00. They said they needed to charge the extra 6 bucks for the blade that hit a nail.  :D
~Bill

2012 Homebuilt Bandmill
1959 Detroit built Ferguson TO35

bkaimwood

Amazes me how cheap they can saw...how can you possibly make any money? I don't think I could afford to start the mill for .12 a bf!!??
bk

WV Sawmiller

MM,

   Yes. I have a box (15) of 4 degree blades. When I bought the mill I bought a box of 4,7 & 2 boxes of 10s. (I think I got 15% off by buying that quantity). Give me plenty to keep in the pool for sharpening although it is time to box up a bunch and send to WM. Never used the 7's till a week or so back cutting hemlock for a customer.

BK,

   The Amish overhead is low and they don't require minimum wage or benefits to operate. At the workshop back in June we had one Mennonite sawyer. I talked with him a bit. He has 5 sons and said hoped 1-2 would take over the mill. He said he was charging $.20-.25/bf and should go up but was reluctant to charge long time customer more. And his prices are more than the Amish as I understand. I don't begrudge them anything they earn. I respect them but don't want to live that life style. They are stationary - I am mobile. That's how I compete with them by choosing a different niche.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

MartyParsons

Hello,
   Hickory requires a sharp blade, the correct hook angle, the proper amount of blade lube and the feed rate needs to be faster than you expect. If you see sawdust packing on the wood you need to increase your cutting speed. The sawdust will look like pancake flour smashed on the board. This creates heat with the band and your cutting experience will not be great. Decreasing band speed would also help if it was easily changed. If you can lug the engine down and not stall the engine but decrease engine speed to change SFM this will help. This will take courage to push the mill to this point. My blade of choice would be a 7/39. A 4 degree would work but feed rate would be slower.
Moisture content of the logs will also change how the blade reacts to cutting.

Good luck and have fun.
Marty
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

YellowHammer

Big dry hickory is challenging.  I have sawn more than a few hickory with 4's and they work well, but recently have begun to prefer the Turbo 7 .055 in hickory (not the .045).  Pitch buildup and burning in hickory can get very bad on the 4's, not quite so bad on the Turbos.  I would definitely be using a heavy mix of Cotton Picker Spindle Cleaner or other agricultural oil/water emulsion lubricant and cleaner. These are readily available at most Farmers Coops.
Band wander is a real issue in big hickory and I like to engage my debarker down the cant occasionally to make a straight line as a quick guide to make sure I'm sawing straight and in the groove.
Good luck, and good sawing.


YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

drobertson

Just me, but I prefer hickory to be a little more on the seasoned side than green, especially on the bigger ones.
And the Amish do the same this way, saw prices are very low, and difficult to compete with.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

WmFritz

At the risk of making my comments too long and boring, I left out one detail. Don's saw bill was net 12¢ a bd. ft. What I omitted was that the Amish mill sawed the pith out, 3" x 3,'' and bought it from him for 6¢ per bd. ft. to use for pallet material. So the true rate was 18¢.

Using the Forum's Doyle scale calculator, I know I figured conservatively to make sure he got the 1000' of lumber he needed. I don't know how far off I was because I didn't see what was left, but my BIL was happy in the end.

Marty, thanks for the input. If the 7/39 will work on my 16hp manual mill, I will get some of them.
~Bill

2012 Homebuilt Bandmill
1959 Detroit built Ferguson TO35

POSTON WIDEHEAD

1st. put Hickory log on mill.
2nd. Pick any blade and put on mill backwards.
3rd. Now your sawing Hickory.  :D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Chuck White

I sawed a Hickory log today that was 20',4" long and we sawed it into 2x8's for trailer decking.

Actually sawed pretty nice, I was using Wood-Mizer Double-Hard blades sharpened to 8° on my Cat Claw sharpener.

I don't saw very much hardwood, other than Poplar & Cherry, but one thing I have learned sawing Hickory and Ash is to watch the cant.  If any part of the cant lifts off of the deck, it needs to be flipped.

Man, that stuff is heavy.  :o
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

gfadvm

Quote from: MartyParsons on July 13, 2015, 08:19:44 AM
Hello,
   Hickory requires a sharp blade, the correct hook angle, the proper amount of blade lube and the feed rate needs to be faster than you expect. If you see sawdust packing on the wood you need to increase your cutting speed. The sawdust will look like pancake flour smashed on the board. This creates heat with the band and your cutting experience will not be great. Decreasing band speed would also help if it was easily changed. If you can lug the engine down and not stall the engine but decrease engine speed to change SFM this will help. This will take courage to push the mill to this point. My blade of choice would be a 7/39. A 4 degree would work but feed rate would be slower.
Moisture content of the logs will also change how the blade reacts to cutting.

Good luck and have fun.
Marty

Marty, Is it hard on the motor to lug it down on those big/tough logs? I have the 15hp Kohler on my LT15 and am using 10 degree Doublehard WM blades. I saw quite a few 20"+ diameter walnut, hickory, and blackjack logs.  Thanks for all your comments.

WV Sawmiller

Chuck,

    Thx for the heads up. I will keep a close eye on the cant. I knew poplar would move around on you but had not heard hickory was prone to movement too. I'll start with the 7 degree blades as suggested by Marty and similar to the 8s you were using. The customer talks like he may want some 8/4 as wide as I can cut it (I can cut 23" per mill specs) so it may go pretty fast once we get the log sort of squared up.

Posty,

   You ain't helping my confidence you know!

WmF,

   Thx for the update on Amish pricing. Still cheaper than I want to work but does help keep things in better perspective.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

1ruralmailman

    hickory will move when milling for sure.we cut some 8/4 slabs one day,stickered them on trailer,as we walked away for lunch there was a loud crack.i thought for a moment the axle had broke,but closer examination two of the slabs had cracked clean through eight feet long,they had twisted at the same time enough to remove the middle pieces out of the pile.

YellowHammer

I mentioned the difficulties sawing hickory to the owner of the local mega mill where I buy some of my hickory logs.   He said they always turn the sprinklers on the hickory log pile and wet them down real well before sawing them.  He says it makes a big difference, making them much easier to saw.  Has anybody done that? I may try it next time to check it out. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Chuck White

Another idea that helps too, is that once the cant is cut to width and you are going to cut the whole cant as it lays on the mill, is to leave all of the finished lumber laying on top of the cant.

That additional weight will help to hold the cant down onto the bed!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

MartyParsons

Hello,
QuoteIs it hard on the motor to lug it down on those big/tough logs?
I think that if you had any gas engine lugging all day long and it never got a break it would cause engine failure due to heat and other issues. Sawing logs the engine would not produce excessive heat on short intervals.

The other thing I have been told and experimented with is to saw all four sides of the Hickory log before any other cuts. This seems to release stress in the log or lessen the reaction wood. Has anyone else experimented with this?
It is hard to be scientific because of so many variables with wood. 
Marty
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

WV Sawmiller

Marty,

   I will pretty much have to square to log to cut it anyway because it is so big. I'll tentatively plan on cutting to a 22-23 inch cant then cut boards or planks from that.

Chuck,

   I will keep that in mind about leaving as much of the finished lumber on top as much as possible. I think I can't leave over 6-7 inches before it catches on the saw head.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

gfadvm


bkaimwood

I'm a firm believer that unless it's "utility", or inherently low grade lumber sold dirt cheap, most species are worth sawing 4 sizes of a log to releive as much tension as possible...and I seldom  even skip this step on low grade lumber...I have found, that more so on poorer quality logs, I can get better than expected lumber from garbage logs by doing so...I make it a habit...anything worth doing is worth doing right...I haven't had the privilege of sawing hickory yet, but can imagine it would be an exception...
bk

WV Sawmiller

   Okay - my flea market operator and I finally got our schedules coordinated and I met him early at the market which is only open on weekends. He brought his skid steer with forks which was real handy. First log was 30 inches on big end and 12-1/2' log from short end of the felling cut. Other was 8-1/2'. Had been down a year.

   I got set up and he rolled big log out of the bushes. Scalybark so the loose bark added some challenge. Started with 4/4 until got a 21" cant then we cut 8/4 X21"X12'. Boy were they heavy! Slid them off onto his forks. Started with low mileage 7 degree blade till got opening cuts. Started to get some ripple so I put a new 7 degree band on. Spotted one 16 penny nail about 2" out of the wood in time to back out, slab deeper and avoided it. Cut about half the log and started bogging down so changed to a 4 degree blade. Got down to 5"X21" cant when 2' from end the blade dived sharply. Yep! The other nail. Not sure how much more there so cut that end off and cut 2 more 8/4 and a 4/4. He may find a market for a 5"X21" X 24" slab - might make a nice butcher block or such.

    Moved on to the 8' log. Cut off a big limb where evidently had forked. After that pretty smooth sailing for hickory I'd say. Cut it into 4/4. All said I guess we got about 530 bf of assorted lumber. Client was happy and I was glad it was no worse than it was.

    I can easily say year old hickory is the hardest wood I have cut to date. I think if I were cutting a lot of it I'd re-work my rates for it but an occasional log or two in the batch I can deal with under current planning. I won't turn it down but I'd sure rather cut my green tulip poplars.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Magicman

Congrats on getting it behind you.  Thankfully it's not all Hickory.   8)
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

gfadvm

I have a 25" diameter hickory to cut on Monday and not looking forward to it. My 15 HP Kohler will be straining! And then I'll be straining to lift the slabs off the mill! And it's supposed to be 100 degrees! :'(

mesquite buckeye

Quote from: bkaimwood on July 13, 2015, 05:25:36 AM
Amazes me how cheap they can saw...how can you possibly make any money? I don't think I could afford to start the mill for .12 a bf!!??

No debt, grow your own food, no electricity. KISS

;D 8) 8) 8) :snowball:
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

mesquite buckeye

I cut a hickory log a couple years ago and the thing had so much stress that the boards popped apart lengthwise as they came off the mill. :(

The rest of the logs from the same tree were fine. ::) :snowball: :snowball: :snowball:
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

WV Sawmiller

I cut a slab off a small spruce several weeks ago and it jumped 6" high when it came free. Seems like the rest of the boards coming off were not too bad.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

YellowHammer

I sawed five skinny 12 footers today for a customer, and the boards lifted off the cant like carrot peels, it was pitiful.
I was talking to the owner of the business who planes my wood and he said a customer came in with a big stack of kiln dried hickory a few weeks ago, (it had to be as hard as a rock) and he said it dulled the planer blades so fast he thought his guys were planing concrete.  He said he could hear the planer screaming from his office. 

So looking at the bright side, there is something worse than sawing hickory.....its planing it. :D
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

gfadvm

Quote from: YellowHammer on July 24, 2015, 11:22:00 PM
I sawed five skinny 12 footers today for a customer, and the boards lifted off the cant like carrot peels, it was pitiful.
I was talking to the owner of the business who planes my wood and he said a customer came in with a big stack of kiln dried hickory a few weeks ago, (it had to be as hard as a rock) and he said it dulled the planer blades so fast he thought his guys were planing concrete.  He said he could hear the planer screaming from his office. 

So looking at the bright side, there is something worse than sawing hickory.....its planing it. :D

I built a coffee table with hickory that was too wide to go through my planer so I scraped it with a card scraper. That is worse than sawing or planing it.

WV Sawmiller

   Saw the guy at the flea market today and he told me he had sold the whole load of hickory the same day we cut it. Said he sent a picture to his brother who immediately bought it all. The guy got the bug and now wants a mill.  His brother told him he is crazy. That has never stopped any of us yet has it?
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Larry

I've found sawing a few inches off the ends of the log helps when they have laid around for any length of time.

As Marty suggested sawing around the log first, before cutting lumber helps with the tension.  I sometimes do that with other species as well.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

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