Help me identify my old saw mill

free_rider_151 · July 09, 2015, 09:37:21 PM

Deadfall it is unfortunate how all the good old growth is wasting away. My dad planted over 1500 pines on our land 50 years ago. They are quite massive now. They are on the perfect soil. He also planted a few thousand black walnut trees. Unfortunetally they arent on the best soil and many of them have been washed away by a constantly changing river. Most of them are just under 18" in diameter after 50 years. Im planning to plant some more trees on my land soon. Havent decided what species yet.

I have found some reasonable prices on barn wood and d fir. Ill keep yall informed after this weekend.

Everyone i really really appreciate your input. Its absolutely invaluable. Beenthere ill get to reading that topic right away

free_rider_151 · July 09, 2015, 10:56:10 PM

Beenthere i read that whole thread. Quite the journey. I didnt realize that mills are that sensative. It makes me nervous about making the mill with wood at all. With the temperature and humidity fluxuations here in wisconsin, im concerned that its gonna be a goose chase to keep this thing working. Then again saw mills have been around for a long time and arent going anywhere. Your suggestion to use old barn beams seems more like a neccesity than a preference at this point. Hopefully this weekend ill pickup some beams for the carriage. Is it important for the carriage to be the same species as the track?

Ron Wenrich · July 10, 2015, 05:50:11 AM

I've worked on wood mills. Things don't move around with the weather. I worked around a wood mill that was doing 100 Mbf/week for 4 years. Good lumber all year long. It's best to have a roof over top the mill. What movement you find in mills usually comes from the foundation work. If you're not below frost line, you can get frost heave after things freeze up.

I think you'll do OK with the barn timbers. Just make sure that what you pick is straight.

free_rider_151 · July 11, 2015, 12:34:38 PM

Well gents i picked up a few barn timbers. This beam has far more checks in it than i would prefer, but beggers cant be choosers. Its ~8 X 11 so im gonna mill it down to 5 x 4 1/2 and then plane it to finish size.

Ron Wenrich · July 11, 2015, 01:16:52 PM

Run a metal detector over it before you plane it.

free_rider_151 · July 11, 2015, 02:01:04 PM

Ron, unfortunetaly i have yet to buy a metal detector. Its gonna be an absolute must once i get this thing going. I milled the timber down into two 5 1/2 x 5's. Ill plane them tomorrow since the planer i use is an hour away...

Ron Wenrich · July 11, 2015, 03:29:25 PM

That's a pretty good job with the chain saw. I have one of those gadgets, but never had too much luck using it. I might have to rethink my technique with it.

free_rider_151 · July 11, 2015, 05:28:48 PM

Ya i had read a few people had problems getting consistent thickness with the chainsaw setup, but i honestly only had a problem with it once. My bar was so worn that the chain twisted and pulled the saw out of the cut. Since it seemed to be the obvious solution, i bought a really nice bar to fix it once and for all. A little extra chain tension and tons of oil are my techinques. Im not good at calculating board feet, but ive cut enough boards to side my house with that saw. Saw power cannot be understated.

beenthere · July 11, 2015, 08:08:04 PM

Free ride
You do not need to worry about those checks. Good job on finding some wood for your mill.

free_rider_151 · July 13, 2015, 05:48:43 PM

beenthere, do you have a circle mill? Other than when I picked my mill up, I have never seen a circle mill in person and I think it would be beneficial for me to see one in action. If you have one, I drive through cross plains about twice a month. Sometimes more.

beenthere · July 13, 2015, 06:35:09 PM

free rider
Sorry, I do not have one, but ran one several years ago for a close friend (learned some from him). And have been around them often over the years.
Don't know of one to visit in the area at the moment. A local farmer runs one, but is very nervous with any visitors I've heard. But he does a fair amount of hardwood sawing volume by the looks of the log decks that change frequently.

Give a shout sometime and we can hit the coffee shop for a visit if you have time and hit me right too.

bandmiller2 · July 13, 2015, 08:15:25 PM

Free rider go on you tube many vids on circular mills. Frank C.

free_rider_151 · July 14, 2015, 09:13:07 AM

Bandmiller I've already watched just about every video on YouTube that has anything to do with milling. I'm looking more for prospective. it's sometimes difficult to grasp the size of things off of videos or pictures and it really helps to see things in person. Because of how incredibly rotted the mill was when I got it I'm basically building it from the ground up with pictures of the original stuff more as a suggestion of where things might have been.

Yesterday I finally figured out why the pulleys go where they go and where the belt is supposed to be routed to get the whole thing to work and I also figured out why I have wooden pulleys. Do most sawmills use a slipping belt change direction and power to the feed?

Power source: the options I have for a power source for the mill are an Allis Chalmers D17 or 20 kW generator that puts out 480v 3 phase (use it to power an electric motor). Would you guys suggest anything better? I do have a vortec 6000, but i would have to adapt a carb to it, which is too pricey to do right now.

Beenthere, ill let you know the next time im passing through at a reasonable hour.

Ron Wenrich · July 14, 2015, 10:00:25 AM

The older mills used a slipping belt. Wooden pulleys weren't the norm on the mills I run. Yours might be a good deal older. How would you run it with the tractor? It seems that you would have to make some sort of system to hook your tractor to it. Many of those old ones ran with a flat belt that came from the power unit. The power unit was often something on the line of a Detroit 371 or 471.

I didn't see a pulley that could run V belts to. If you go the electric route, you'll have to buy an electric motor, install the electric starters, and buy a pulley for the V belts. Seems that since your funds are at a premium, that the electric might also be pricey to install.

Dave_ · July 14, 2015, 11:26:09 AM

Like Ron said, the cost of going electric will be huge. An electric motor large enough to run the mill will cost a fortune and beyond that, because of the RPM of the motor, you will need to buy a large vee-belt pulley for the arbor. This too will cost a fortune.

An engine, on the other hand, is much easier to use. If you use a transmission, the driver speed can be slowed down in order to use your existing pulley. You mentioned wood pulleys. What is the size of your arbor pulley?

free_rider_151 · July 14, 2015, 10:45:48 PM

The mill is currently run off of either a large flat belt or a bailer clutch (the previous owner welded something inside the drive pulley to bolt the clutch to).
The electric route wouldnt be expensive for me. Im lucky enough to have a friend who collects electric motors and controllers. Ive heard that electric motors dont have to be as many hp as a deisel running the mill. Is this true?

Im not sure of the arbor pulley size. Im planning to measure all the pulleys tomorrow night.
There is only one true wooden pulley. It is on the end of the gear box for the chip chain. The other two are (just guessing) wrapped in canvas and rotatw opposite directions. A metal pulley inbetween the two wood ones slides toward one or the other, thus causing the metal pulley (drives the carriage cable) in either direction.

Ron Wenrich · July 15, 2015, 05:30:53 AM

With the gen set, you would have the flexibility of adding other equipment that used electricity. Putting an edger in will help your production and lumber handling. I ran my automatic mill with a 125 hp motor on the saw. You won't need a motor that big for your operation. But, I would think you would want at least a 75 hp motor.

free_rider_151 · July 15, 2015, 08:56:19 AM

Ron, unfortunately, 20kw works out to about 26.82hp electric motor.... probably not enough... Would that run an edger?
What does an edger do? From the name, I assume it cuts off the live edge...

Ron Wenrich · July 15, 2015, 09:19:47 AM

The edger cuts the live edges. You probably can get away with a 25 hp electric. Some guys run with smaller units. I had a 50 hp on my edger, but it was a fairly large one and could take a 4" cut. Rule-of-thumb is 5 hp/inch of wood. So, if you're edging 4/4 lumber with 2 saws, you could theoretically get away with a 10 hp motor. An edger is much better than trying to do it on the headsaw.

free_rider_151 · July 21, 2015, 02:53:50 PM

Does anyone happen to have any pictures of a knight sawmill?

Remle · July 21, 2015, 11:25:03 PM

This may be of interest to you..
Google "knight sawmill" and then select
Knight Manufacturing Co. - History |...
vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=1369

History
Products
Machine Info
Publication Reprints (1)
Photo Index (4)
Machine Registry (0)
Images (2)
Patents (7)
Classified Ads (0)

free_rider_151 · July 22, 2015, 10:08:53 AM

Remle, I did find them in vintage machinery earlier, however they don't have a photo of the sawmills I'm looking for. I suspect that they made wood framed mills earlier in their history. These are the mills I'm looking for.

Lumber Grader · July 22, 2015, 02:44:11 PM

If you will Google the following:"the ideal mfg co sawmills" you will see a website:

American Saw Mill Machinery Co. - VintageMachinery.org

vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=36

Jan 2, 2015 - Over the years, quite a few brand names were used by American Saw Mill: Champion, Climax, Clipper, Hercules, Ideal, Jewel, Lightning, ...

Your mill has stamped in one place ideal mfg co, which means it most likely was one one of many brands of sawmills made by American Saw Mill Machinery Co from Hackettstown, NJ.

You can read more by cutting and pasting the website above.

I hope that helps you.

Looks like you are doing a great job of restoring the mill!

Best Wishes and Happy Sawdust!!!
Wade
"Lumber Grader"

free_rider_151 · July 23, 2015, 07:53:44 PM

Lumber Grader!!!! you did it! I was manufactured by the american sawmill company! On page 34 of their manual from 1910, it describes their hercules friction feed. It's a perfect match for my pulley setup.
Page 65 shows the No. 3 guide I have. Page 63 shows style B track that I have. Page 53 shows the cable drum setup.

beenthere · July 23, 2015, 08:39:12 PM

Very good find.
What is the link to the manual from 1910 that you (free_rider_) found?

I found a later catalog that was interesting, and may inspire others making their own rigs.
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/36/82.pdf

Was thinking of the saw rigs @Kbeitz posted a short time ago... similar rigs show near the end of these catalog pages, as well as the Bolter saws of that age... lay on a log and manually push it past the head saw.