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Peg troubles in Hiram

Started by beetle, September 15, 2004, 07:10:41 AM

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beetle

Having a little trouble getting my pegs a consistant size using a draw knife and shaving horse. I spent my weekend building the shaving horse and went to the mill yesterday and picked up 1x6 white oak fresh off the saw. I ripped them into 1" square stock 12" long. The draw knife keeps wanting to catch the grain and make splinters when trying to knock the corners off. I then try a few with a block plane to knock the edges down to make a hexagon and they turn out perfect. What am I missing? Is my draw knife too sharp?

Any suggestions?

By the way... I was driving back from the mill yesterday and I look over and see this guy whittling away on some timbers, I stop and ask " are you building a timber frame? " Sure enough he is. We talked for a good hour, appears he has the bug also.

Thanks again,
Jeff
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

Jim_Rogers

Jeff:
How are you holding the draw knife? the bevel should be down not up.
If you have the bevel down you can control how much the knife cuts into the wood by rolling your hands. What I mean is if you lower your hands causing the knife to turn on it's axis from handle to handle you'll cut deeper into the wood. If you raise your hands the blade will roll up and cut less wood. This is how you control how much wood gets cut or how deep the blade cuts in.
With the bevel up you don't have the control you need. The blade seems to always dig in too deep.
Try it and let me know how you make out.
Sorry I don't have any pictures to show you, but when someone comes over we can take some and show you later.
Also, don't draw towards yourself always straight, that is keep on hand closer to you than the other, then the blade enters the wood at an angle and it will slice the wood. After you have pulled a few times with the right hand close to you shift and make your left hand closer. Also, change the location on the draw knife blade that touches the wood, some areas of the blade may be sharper then others. And if this is so sharpen your blade.
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

beetle

Thanks Jim...I will give it a try again this evening and report back. I was holding the knife with the bevel up.

On the shaving horse subject, did you maintain the 12" distance per plans from the end of the rump to the pivot point on the dumbhead? Seems to me that the end of the rump is a little long from the dumbhead holding point for making pegs?
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

Jim_Rogers

Jeff:
The quick answer is yes, the horse was built to the plans, with the one exception that the dump head and shaft is not one piece of wood. The sides of the dump head were attached to the shaft with glue and screws.
We found as you have that the rump is too long, but we didn't cut it off, but have thought about it several times.
However we have some what shaved it down a little more than in this picture when it was new:



I found that having a long rump there helps support the piece firmly. If you can, just catch the end of the peg with the dumb head as shown in the photo above.
Also, we have the drilled all the holes on the plans in the dump head shaft and we are pivoting on the top hole and have the foot rest pedal on the top hole also.
Hope this helps.
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

ARKANSAWYER

Pegs should be made from dry wood. :P

  I cut my pegs with this on the table saw and plane down the corners with a plane and put the point on with a draw knife.  I have a piece of plate steel with a 1 1/16th and 13/16th that is mounted to a post that I pass my pegs through for proper size.  They should just drag.  All my pegs are white oak that has seen life as a sticker for a spell and are clear and dry.  Just me.
ARKANSAWYER  
ARKANSAWYER

beetle

No more peg troubles. Flipping the draw knife with the bevel down helped considerably. In addition, I inadvertently picked up a red oak board when I went to the mill last week and of course that was the one I ripped and tried first. I have noticed that the white oak pares considerably easier than the red.

I do have a few additional questions relating to pegs:

I planned all my boards to 1" thickness and the ripped them into 1" square stock, I then ran the blanks back through the planner to yeild 31/32 square stock and cut those to 12" lenght. I am paring the corners off so that all flats on the hexagon are pretty even ( approx. 1/4 flats.) This procedure is giving me a peg that takes very slight if any hand pressure to push through the peg hole. Is this the correct fit? I will be using the draw bore method. Keep in mind I will not be boring my peg holes until raising and my pegs will be carved anywhere for 2- 5 months, so I expect then to shrink a little.

Will having the pegs pre-carved for that amount of time be a issue?

What is the proper method of storing my pegs ? Should I try to store them or treat them so they do not dry quickly?

Thanks for all the help, it is appreciated.

Jeff
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

Jim_Rogers

Pegs should not slide into a hole in the mortise. They should not slide into a hole in the tenon. You may have made your pegs too small. They should be a tight fit and need to be pounded in. You need to have somewhat of a taper to them, especially at the tip, that is the first end in. This extra taper should be only about 2" long, just enough to catch the other side of the mortise after it's in the tenon to help align it to that side of the mortise hole.
Make them like the one in my photo above.
To swell too small pegs keep them in a bucket of water over night. And then re-test before discarding the whole bunch.
Jim Rogers
Let me know how you make out.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Jim_Rogers

Also, you could bore a new hole in a small left over block of the same timbers and see how they fit into a fresh bored hole.
Dry pegs are stronger then fresh ones and that's what you need so making them now is ok.
I wouldn't treat them with anything right now.
How many have you made?
Next batch, don't plane them just trim with draw knife, you're putting to much time into something that should only take minutes to create, once squared up.
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

beetle

OH S...!  I know I have read in the books, Soben for example, that the pegs should be slightly undersized 1/32" for using the draw board method ?? If this is wrong I now have 200 31/32 x 12" peices of fire wood. If you cannot push them through a test hole how do you know that you are not too big and when you drive it in you take a chance of splitting out the relish?

I guess I do have peg troubles in Hiram again.
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

Jim_Rogers

Ok, so maybe I'm wrong, it's been know to happen.

We bore a test hole in our shaving horse seat, the same size as we're going to bore into the frame pieces. The peg should fit into this hole without much friction to the sides. This test hole with wear out with age, or get to large from frequent use and you may need to make a new one, maybe that's what happened to me.

Test some blocks and see if your ok before you replace or swell your pegs.

Let me know how you make out.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

beetle

Jim,
I planned the stock square prior to shaving the edges off with the draw knife. I did this because the boards I got from the mill were out of his " non-grade stack " and the thicknesses varied. They were cheap $.50 each for a 1" x 6" x 10' board.

After planned square to 31/32 nds, I then shaved the edges and made one end to a point.

The books say slightly smaller???????????????????????
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

beetle

I bored a 1" test hole in a 2" thick peice of Oak, my wife did not want me to bore a hole in the seat of the shaving horse and I aint arguing with her! Just aint worth it.

When I finish each peg ( approx. 2 minutes each), I test it in that hole and if it takes slight hand pressure to push them all they way through the hole I consider them done and throw it into the finished pile.

Should they be slightly oversize ? or just fit snuggly ?

I have 50 made and 150 blanks yet to carve. Should I scrape them?
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

Jim_Rogers

Jeff:
What you're doing is fine, disregard my above post.
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

beetle

You gave me the jitters Jim......must be that Texas air.

Have fun down there!
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

beetle

I am still a little concerned that my pegs maybe slightly small, I measured a few blanks last night and they are 15/16" square. I then measured a finished peg and the pared flats are also 15/16" across from flat to flat. The distance across from the points are around 1". My plan was to drill 1" holes and I have not bored the holes yet in my timbers. I tested the majority of the finished pegs through a 1" test hole and they easily push right through with very slight drag. Since I will not be boring my peg holes until spring of 05 should I just wait and see how much my pegs shrink? If they become sloppy in the 1" hole, I could bore and test in a 15/16" hole?

Comments and any suggestions?

Nervous Nelly in Hiram.
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

ARKANSAWYER

  Pegs should be dry.  Green pegs will shrink and become loose in the holes.    
  Try this.  Take some of the pegs that you have made that just fit in your test hole.  Take them to the oven in the house (while wife is gone of course) and set the temp to low and bake them for a few hours.  This will cook off the water and harden the pegs.  Then try them in your test hole.  How well pegs fit is a factor that will show up in a tight frame.
   A dry peg will swell up in the hole so it is important that when you set the peg, it goes to where it needs to be fairly quick.  
  A while back I was at a place where they were raising a frame that was cut on a machine and the pegs looked like dowle rods.   I noticed that most were just pushed in by hand and the lead guy said that was possible because of how well the machines made the joints and bored the holes in the kiln dried timbers.  I did not care for it as I learned from the old school and my GrandPa would roll over in his grave if he knew that I could pull a peg out with my hand.  I am sure that once the weight was on the frame they would not come out.
  In draw boreing it is important not to have to much force or you will split your timbers out.  Most of that has to do where you bore the draw hole.  I would not throw the small pegs away till you are done as you may need one if you miss bore a hole since you can not re-bore and a slightly smaller peg may do the trick.  It should not take more then a 5lb maul to set a peg.  Just me.
ARKANSAWYER
ARKANSAWYER

beetle

Arkansawyer, If I am reading your post correctly, a dry peg should fit the green hole snuggly, correct? if so, then when I make my pegs out of green stock they should be slightly oversize, that way when they shrink they will fit, correct?

If the above statement is correct, then what happens when the dry peg swells in the hole and the timbers shrink when they dry?  Wont this put alot of stress on the relish?

Thanks for everyones help, maybe I am making a mountain out of a hill, but, after all my work I surely want my joints right.

Jeff
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

beetle

Well.....I put a peg in the oven at 125 degree's for 2 hrs and it shrunk 1/32". Prior to the oven treatment, the peg had slight drag pushing through a 1" test hole, this morning I tested it again in the same hole and it fell right through with a 32nd clearance between the hole ID and the points on the peg.

This tells me that come spring 05 my pre-carved pegs will be too small in a fresh bored 1" hole, however, the timber joints will shrink in time correct???

Confused in Ohio.
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

Jim_Rogers

Jeff:
Solution = Bore a smaller hole later. Keep doing what you're doing, in regard to size of pegs, don't throw out all the peg blanks.
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

beetle

Jim,
That is what I was thinking, Since I will not be boring the holes until raising, I will finish my pegs with the stock I have and fit the pegs when I bore.

I have a complete set of old Jennings double spur bits, so I may go with 7/8" or 15/16" holes.

Thanks everyone...Jeff
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

ARKANSAWYER

Yep! when you drive a dry peg into your green timber it will swell abit as it absorbs water from the timber.  This makes for a tight fit and is why you set it where you want it.  Also this will casuse the peg to always be tight in the hole.  I have removed pegs from old frames that took a sledge hammer to drive and some we have had to bore a 1/2" hole through to get the peg out with out hurting the timber.
  Better to have learned this now then to find this out next spring when your holes were to large for the pegs.
ARKANSAWYER
ARKANSAWYER

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