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It's alive...kinda...

Started by kellysguy, June 26, 2015, 05:56:06 PM

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kellysguy

Well, the 365 is back together and running. I'm a bit disappointed in it's performance though. Build consists of old stock 48mm cylinder, Meteor piston and Caber ring, Huztl crank, bearings and seals. Nothing other than stock except base of transfer ports matched to the gasket. Nothing crazy, just radiused the corners a little and ran that out to the edge of the gasket. It seems a bit doggy for a 65cc saw. I'm only getting 135psi compression hot. I guess it'll get better as it breaks in but I was hoping for more. What are "normal" numbers for a top end rebuild with a used cylinder? Thanks.

carb is L-1 1/4 ,H-1 and I'm about 50fr above sea level.

weimedog

Squish?? That's a huge deal on those.  Measure...my bet is it's in the .050 range, if it is yank that gasket and do an 1194 builld

Does it have a healthy 2700 idle?? And does it snap to rpms from idle? And what is your no load set to?
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

kellysguy

Didn't check as I thought  I wouldn't need to seeing it a Meteor piston. Then again it is a Huztl crank...

celliott

Is it an open port 365 or a quad port 365 special?
I've heard the 365 specials (quad closed port, like a smaller 372 jug) run so close to a 372 it's hard to tell a difference. I'd guess the open port version would have a noticeable power difference though.
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

weimedog

They can be. Did he say open or closed?
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

weimedog

Quote from: kellysguy on June 26, 2015, 09:12:45 PM
Didn't check as I thought  I wouldn't need to seeing it a Meteor piston. Then again it is a Huztl crank...

I doesn't matter the brand,,,, :) Its about the tolerance stack

And....get it running and idling,  take some brake clean and spray a little at the crank seals and especially a puff behind the carb. If it shuts off ur saw... a clue. Not perfect, like having to spray into the pull start & at the clutch from under, eliminate that leak thing from the equation too. Its not hard for a strong or young person to flex the manifold behind the carb. "Arthur" is my torque wrench any more! If you have never met, that won't make any sense BTW
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

kellysguy

365 Special closed port. I guess I can stick a piece of copper wire in through the plug hole and check squish. How much comp should I have? I don't think I have a vacuum leak as the carb was set the same as before and it cranks and idles great.

weimedog

Quote from: kellysguy on June 26, 2015, 10:00:18 PM
365 Special closed port. I guess I can stick a piece of copper wire in through the plug hole and check squish. How much comp should I have? I don't think I have a vacuum leak as the carb was set the same as before and it cranks and idles great.

No to copper yes to soft solder. AND you never know until u check for leaks.... sluggish saw?? leaks are possible

Squish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw-XVE7NAjs
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

kellysguy

K, I'll check tomorrow. I'm a  fan of propane. Brake cleaner is too expensive.

kellysguy

Didn't leak check yet. I remembered while I was assembling the flywheel had play in the keyway quite a bit. I loosened and "advanced" it as much as I could. I'd make a spacer but I can't find my calipers. Squish is .054".

Question; if I ditch the gasket, how much does that alter my timing and do I have to fix my now induced timing issue?

Thanks

kellysguy

Shim made, timing better and saw snappier. Leak at carb-to-boot. Can't find allen wrench...

celliott

Ditching the gasket won't affect timing enough to worry about adjusting it. Leave timing stock.
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

kellysguy

Allen found, still leaks; put a little Permatex Motoseal on carb-to-boot. If the boot is bad anyway, what do I have to loose? :D I already have $10 in a tube of stuff I'll never use up before it goes bad and a new boot is $45. I'm not a fan of doing this but in the short term it seems like a good idea. I guess I screwed up the boot putting it on and yes, after the cylinder was already installed.

If this fixes it I'll buy a new boot and ditch the base gasket in the process. I might hone a little bit too. I didn'tt before and just cleaned up the cylinder with some scotch bright. I didn't want to make it any more worn than it already was.  I like the saw and it is pretty easy to work on.

weimedog

Quote from: kellysguy on June 27, 2015, 09:28:27 AM
Didn't leak check yet. I remembered while I was assembling the flywheel had play in the keyway quite a bit. I loosened and "advanced" it as much as I could. I'd make a spacer but I can't find my calipers. Squish is .054".

Question; if I ditch the gasket, how much does that alter my timing and do I have to fix my now induced timing issue?

Thanks

Leaky intake boot = sluggish saw :) Not as uncommon as you might think. One of the first things to check with the entire 365/372 line and 385/390 series as well. ONLY use a NEW OEM boot on those saws. And make certain that metal ring is fresh and not bent in any way. A lot more critical than many articulate.

K... taking out the gasket alters both intake and exhaust in a positive way and the transfers but not in a bad way really. Since you asked...

Pulling the typical OEM base gasket drops the cylinder approx.. .018 to .020in and there for advances the intake by about a degree and retards the exhaust about the same.... the blow down doesn't change as its the relationship between the transfers and exhaust.. Most importantly moving that squish from .054 to .034 will  give you some where between 15 and 20 psi compression hike. MORE importantly the "wasted" amount of fuel stuck between the "squish" band and the piston at ignition is reduced and that fuel pushed out of there into the combustion chamber adds to the mix that will actually burn....so you get both more efficiency because of the higher compression and more charge to burn as the charge remaining under that squish band most likely won't burn in a way that adds power...its just wasted. In a perfect world you would be able to get the squish in the .018-.020 range on those saws for a "work" saw vs. play saw. "Decking" that cylinder and trimming the squish band along with pushing the boundaries with port timing is essentially the way to build that saw to maximize it's power, but without the tools to do that.....removing the base gasket & using a sealer such as Three Bond 1194/84 moves you in that direction and its some thing anyone can do. IF you could "deck" the cylinder and retain a gasket there are theoretic benefits of having that gasket in there that has nothing to do with sealing the bottom end...another discussion but not really relevant in this case...

Adding a degree advance to the intake also increases duration by TWO degree's (up and down). That lets a little more charge into the bottom end to then get jammed to the top and burned...yet a little more power. SINCE usually stock those 365 open in the mid 70's (73-75) degree's before TDC, adding a degree does nothing but help that saw run. You can push that intake to around 80 degree's BTDC before you approach the point of diminishing returns. Some of the more aggressive builds have that in the low 80's along with a bunch of other changes to make that work well so you pulling the gasket does nothing but help when you have a squish number like .054!

AND adding a degree to the opening of the exhaust allows the system (piston/crank etc. ) to be under pressure before the transfers open dumping pressure for a tiny bit longer. Not a bad thing. Again you would have to delay that a lot longer before there is any down side.

ADD all those small changes up that help torque and subtract the negatives relative to the lack of a crushable material for a gasket, transfer timing and exit issues due to the piston now not completely opening the transfer and you STILL end up with a saw that will both noticeably stronger in the cut (more torque) and snappier throttle response... cheap trick to make a saw run better when the squish is too large without actually "decking" the cylinder...
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

kellysguy

Cool, gasket sealer didn't work. I guess the aftermarket boots aren't worth the trouble, are they? What about the aluminum support bracket from Huztl? Thanks.

weimedog

Please only use an OEM intake boot. spend the extra 10 bucks and it will save you a lot of trouble. Those 365/372 intake boots from Huztl and every other source I have tried are a crap shoot. And I can't say it often enough...USE OEM only on those boots. If you don't have a Husqvarna shop close, or can't find one through one of the site sponsors and any other one of typical means; call Spike60's shop. Interestingly enough Huztl's MS660 intake boot looks to be fine and dimensionally correct...my bet is at some point they will get that right on the 372's but until some one Aftermarket, ANYONE get it right, and I haven't seen one yet; use OEM... how many ways can I phrase this.
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

weimedog

My bet is when you close up that squish .020 and get a good intake boot on that saw you are not going to believe the difference, it will be that noticeable... and forget muffler mods for now.
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

Spike60

Oh my God! Ya know, so many times lately, and it's increasing, some guy will come in the store and start a conversation with, "I was reading online........." Frustrating as heck and it means I have to roll the whole thing back so I can get to the guys actual problem.

You have a compression issue. 135 is way too low. May be the crank. Probably related to the aftermarket piston, or a combination of the two. But of course "everybody online" says to use a Meteor piston and a Cabor ring, so that's where that idea came from.  :-\  A leaking deco valve will cause both sluggeshness and some compression loss, so shoot some spray in that direction to eliminate that as the problem. Compression should be at least 150 with the gasket and 165-175 if you use the 1194. (I'm assuming accurate compression readings from a gage that doesn't use an adapter which causes falsely low readings. )

OEM boots are indeed the only way to go, but the boot isn't responsible for the low compression. Also, when checking for a leaking or torn boot, carb spray on the boot, NOT where the boot meets the carb will find the leak. Spraying directly where the carb meets the boot will almost always affect the way the saw runs, but doesn't necessarily indicate a problem. Also check the plastic flange that hold the boot and throttle cable. Look for cracks near the nuts that hold the carb screws.





Husqvarna-Jonsered
Ashokan Turf and Timber
845-657-6395

weimedog

Quote from: Spike60 on June 27, 2015, 07:41:37 PM
Oh my God! Ya know, so many times lately, and it's increasing, some guy will come in the store and start a conversation with, "I was reading online........." Frustrating as heck and it means I have to roll the whole thing back so I can get to the guys actual problem.

You have a compression issue. 135 is way too low. May be the crank. Probably related to the aftermarket piston, or a combination of the two. But of course "everybody online" says to use a Meteor piston and a Cabor ring, so that's where that idea came from.  :-\  A leaking deco valve will cause both sluggeshness and some compression loss, so shoot some spray in that direction to eliminate that as the problem. Compression should be at least 150 with the gasket and 165-175 if you use the 1194. (I'm assuming accurate compression readings from a gage that doesn't use an adapter which causes falsely low readings. )

OEM boots are indeed the only way to go, but the boot isn't responsible for the low compression. Also, when checking for a leaking or torn boot, carb spray on the boot, NOT where the boot meets the carb will find the leak. Spraying directly where the carb meets the boot will almost always affect the way the saw runs, but doesn't necessarily indicate a problem. Also check the plastic flange that hold the boot and throttle cable. Look for cracks near the nuts that hold the carb screws.

Saw Yoda has spoken.. and as always cuts to the chase.  ;D (He's taught this old fart most of what I know about Jonsered/Husqvarna's)

First.. it's probably not the crank or piston as .050+- a few thou squish is something pretty common and for that matter the two 365's I did last year both had a squish in that range. (Hence the prediction at the beginning of this thread) SO that means both the crank and AM piston are dimensionally typical with at least the OEM parts I've seen recently. If the squish was more .. like in the .060 range then either the piston or crank would obviously be a place to look. But simply removing the base gasket gets the squish in the .030 range... while not optimal, certainly quite acceptable..................... next :)

Problem with these type of cyber conversational diagnostics is I no longer trust many compression numbers I hear online...I have seen gauges swing 20lbs from gauge to gauge... SO that's why I asked if it idles... AND he has to pull it apart any way...then can check stuff like end gap and related things. Think he also mentioned he was going to scuff up the bore and with a new piston & ring what else can he do there? You and I typically just plug the deco for a variety of reasons... Me?  'cause it eliminates a variable, I have a pile of Huztl plugs and they are cheap!... maybe that should be a standard procedure.

SO other than a wacked out end gap, that typical stock squish, possibly glazed cylinder wall, and....decomp... were else do you look to pick up compression?? And he also suspects a leaking AM boot...typical for them.  My hunch? Doing the FJ build with an OEM boot and he will stumble into the core issue if it's not actually the gauge...   :P  And I agree.. put a plug in the decomp. Because as  Bob has pointed out that can cause a leak.

BTW is pouring buckets up here!! We are supposed to get an additional inch this PM AND I have a low hour 365 Cylinder & Piston we can measure if he needs to check bore dimensions and the like .:0
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

kellysguy

Saw dies when sprayed directly where carb bolts up, not so much on the boot itself. Already ordered new boot. Went with Meteor as I wasn't happy with the Huztl piston; the old factory piston had too much skirt wear. Meteor piston floated softly and slowly down the cylinder when dropped in in with no rings; I'm happy as I can be with it.  Gauge is "adapter" type with several attachments with air hose type fittings and a stupid long hose. Yeah, I know but I pulled the crap outta it till the gauge quit rising. Shrader is in the very end of plug hole fitting so hose length shouldn't matter as long as cord pulled till it stops rising.....which is a LONG time.

Current boot is factory, not AM. I was asking if the AM was worth a try. Given the new "don't spray it there" information it may be fine. I took off the air filter and shielded the incoming air from possible overspray but it definitely died. An "acceptable vacuum leak? I've never heard of that before. Boot is supple with no signs of cracks or leaks. Plastic boot support piece looks good, no cracks and doesn't look warped. I like the idea of the Huztl version in aluminum. Anyone use one of those yet?

Plug the decomp with what, what's the thread size?

How can it be the crank if I have .054" squish, isn't that a normal range?

Just got the rest of the stuff from the guy who gave me the saw. Total of three bars 20", 24" and 28" with a loose tip but barely used. A bunch of chains- some new, some tools and files plus a stump vise and proper grease gun all in an old school tool box and all for free. 8) (this is one of the same guys that sold me the TK1220).

weimedog

You have it under control. If the saw dies with a little spray on that junction .. its leaking.  .054 is a typical squish for a stocker. It's not unusual to see problems with that carb to boot issue. One of the "other" video guys did a video specifically on that topic. There is no acceptable leak there...if it leaks it needs to be replaced. As bob pointed out sometimes that bracket is compromised and needs to be replaced. If there is a question it's cheap insurance to replace that intake system. I hate to bring another variable into the equation...last year I had a rash of walbro carb issues where I could get the saw to start but could not get it to run right. AND the first one that frustrated me was a 365... a new carb solved its problem. But the symptoms were hard to start, could not get it to idle properly under 3k, and it acted lean on the high end to add insult to injury.


mweba's cut on those intakes... a good video. One of MANY from him BTW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7f9zNQTJBQ
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

weimedog

BTW I haven't seen the Huztl aluminum parts...except as a clamp on the old "square" style 365 intake that has that clamp & two screws vs. the later "round" intake port casting & clamping system. So now I wonder WHICH 365 intake system you have... I was assuming the same intake system as the 372's... do you have the "square" style intakes?? Could you post a picture?? Obviously they can't be interchanged. Wouldn't change the prognosis though other than the fact that the later closed port 365 should stronger than the open port ones.
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

kellysguy

Quote from: weimedog on June 27, 2015, 09:43:11 PM
BTW I haven't seen the Huztl aluminum parts...


Mine is round, here's the part.


(Ebay ad deleted by Admin, Please refer to rules for posting such ads)

Spike60

On this spraying around the carb debate it's worth pointing out that if you really douse the thing with whatever spray, the carb will ingest some of it where the throttle shaft goes through the carb body. Particularly on an older carb. Again, you can get some false impressions from this. And I think this discussion is getting a little too hung up on this spraying the boot deal, and we aren't looking at everything else. Wanna do it by the book, then you need the mighty vac and the saw must hold both pressure and vacuum. That boot may indeed be a problem, but it would result in some annoying running issues, besides the lackluster performance.

Does the saw hold steady at hi RPM's? An air leak present will make that almost impossible to do, as it will want to rev higher and higher. Also it will not idle for very long without starving for fuel. What's the plug look like? White means running lean caused by a small air leak or misadjusted carb. Gray oily stuff everywhere means a huge air leak as in a torn boot or blown seal. (and death is near!) But a leak that bad would be a saw that's a lot worse than just sluggesh when you try to run it.

Adapter on a gage usually means low readings, so I'm thinking the actual compression is little better than 135. Not sold on 54 being representative of a stock squish number though Walt. Think we might need to increase the data sample there.  :)  But I think you are on the right track with the carb being a potential problem. Especially if it's one of the Zama carbs. The Walbros are far better on this chassis. (opposite on the 357 chassis).

And what exactly is meant by sluggesh? Is it simply disappointing when you run it with no other indications that something's wrong? Is it attaining full RPM's. If it won't rev up, that's not indicative of an air leak. I'm still thinking it's a carb or compression issue. Not all carbs can be fixed with a kit and cleaning. Damage or oxidation to the carb body means it's junk. Perhaps the cylinder needs a little more cleaning/attention? New ring needs some break in time? Lot's of possibilities.  ???

I built one of these saws using the recipe that Walt mentioned earlier, plus a little work removing the cylinder skirt between the transfers. Built it on an old, tired and banged up 371 chassis. This saw rips and will easily outcut a stock 372, so you should be anything but disappointed when you get this sorted out.     

And another thought: Did you center the crank when you replaced it? 372 chassis really isn't as fussy with the crank as most other saws, but it still needs to be addressed.

And a second another thought: Did you remember the small o-ring that goes on before the oil pump gear bushing?

Husqvarna-Jonsered
Ashokan Turf and Timber
845-657-6395

kellysguy

Cranks right up, idles well, holds high RPMs. Pulled the metal ring out of the intake and it seems to be sealing better. Isn't the top of the carb vented? Might be pulling through that. The throttle doesn't seem as responsive as it should be. That being said, this is m first "big" saw and maybe they just act that way. My little poulan snaps up and screams when you blip the throttle but that not even a fruit much less an apple or an orange.

I didn't hone as I've read some ring manufactures don't require it (automotive) and I didn't want to take a chance of hurting the plating. Lord only knows how thin that stuff is now as this saw has seen LOTS of past use on a CM. I think I'll just give it a light scuff with 220.

Walbro carb and what's up with that little channel cast into the back of the body right by the screw hole? That's a vacuum leak waiting to happen! I ordered the aluminum Huztl flange. At this point it's becoming more of a "toy" than a tool. (Do they make carbon fiber covers for these yet?  :D )

The more I work on it, the more I like the layout (other than having to pull the cylinder for the boot ::)).

I think I need a 50cc pro saw and there is a 55 about two hours away that needs a little work for not too much money. ;D

weimedog

That chassis is fun...I think the best fun per dollar chassis for a saw hobbyist.... Certainly the most POWER per dollar in the saw world for the typical tinkerer  who has skills and Lowes near by but no machine tools.

Bob dropped a 371/372 basket case like a bomb into my saw world a few years back... it ended up being the original "Farmer Jones" build with 1194 base gasket, muffler mod (3/4 in tube brazed in the upper clutch side corner) , Single ring 371 OEM piston, and that one had a .040in lower intake port.....it's in the hands of a young fella who heats his home with wood. He bought it a year ago...I dropped a lot of timber with that saw!  Interestingly enough and why I hooked onto this thread, my current favorite saw is my original 365 bought back in around 2003/2004 built with a 372xpw top end... (yea there is a video...)
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

Spike60

OK, how 'bout a 3rd "another thought".  :)  I'll keep 'em coming until we get this thing fixed.

Have a look at the throttle cable right where it goes into the trigger. Sometimes the cable sheath will begin to wear and peel back at this spot and the result is that it won't fuily open the throttle when you pull the trigger.
Husqvarna-Jonsered
Ashokan Turf and Timber
845-657-6395

weimedog

Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

weimedog

And a bunch of video moments from past video's stuck together for this particular thread...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXvVp6gZcpo
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

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