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cabinet door questions

Started by hackberry jake, June 09, 2015, 05:55:27 PM

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hackberry jake

My brother is fixing up his current house in order to sell it and buy a larger house. The cabinets are in good shape but the doors are just painted pieces of 1/2" plywood. I have three shapers and two feeders so buying the doors from a cabinet shop is out of the question , even though it would be cheaper. But once I buy the tooling I will have "cabinet doors" in my arsenal. What tooling do you guys use for doors? There are so many different profile options it's mind boggling. Some questions.
Shaper, router , or a mix of the two?
I guess there are four different profiles in a raised panel cabinet door.
Stile, rail, panel, door edge. What do you use for each?
Is there a "most common" style of doors I should buy cutters for?
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

Andy White

hackberry jake
The sky is the limit on profiles available. I have two door sets of Freud router cutters with panel raising cutters. When doing raised panels, unless the customer wants an ogee style raised profile, I use the table saw with feather boards to raise the panels. The cutters in my sets are 2-7/8/" diameter. A whole lot of steel to be spinning at high speed. These will require several passes to avoid tearout, and using a high horsepower router. My standard setup is the coping cutter on the small table using a PC 2 hp router. The stile cutter is set up on the big table with the PC 3-1.2 hp router. I use a 1/2" shaper cutter set from MLCS to profile the outer edges on all pieces. This is done on my old Delta shaper. Once these cutters are all dialed in to the proper height, cut all the stock, and move from one machine to the next, an next. I normally do the outside profile last to keep good square edges on the coping sled during the coping cuts. Do the stile and rail grooving next, then the outer edges.
This system works for me.   YMMV    8) 8) 8) 8)   Andy
Learning by day, aching by night, but loving every minute of it!! Running HM126 Woodland Mill, Stihl MS290, Homemade Log Arch, JD 5103/FEL and complete woodshop of American Delta tools.

hackberry jake

Andy, are you talking about running the stock over the table saw blade at an angle like you would do a cove? Never thought using that technique to raise panels.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

WDH

I have a MLCS door making bit set.  A groove with an ogee pattern is cut into the stiles, and the rails are coped with a second bit.  I use a 3 1/4 HP router in a router table.  You can use a flat panel or a raised panel. I have a panel raising bit, but you need to have a router speed control.  The bit is too bit to run in the router at full speed.  Too scary.  You have to slow it down about half. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Andy White

hackberry jake,
You can raise panels that way for sure, and have a concaved profile around the panel. I can't run them that way on my saw due to the outfeed tables I built will not let me clamp the diagonal guide needed for that operation. My saw is a right tilt unisaw, and I tilt the blade 12°, and move the fence to the left side of the blade,1/4", and raise the blade till the teeth just cut thru the face of the panel, ab0ut 1-3/4" high. Run panel thru all four sides,Then tilt blade back to plumb, lower it to 1/4" or to the dimension you want the tongue to be inserted into the groove around the frame. Run panel again, and it's done. For concave profile, I have to use my panel raising cutter in the router table.     Andy
Learning by day, aching by night, but loving every minute of it!! Running HM126 Woodland Mill, Stihl MS290, Homemade Log Arch, JD 5103/FEL and complete woodshop of American Delta tools.

Joey Grimes

A shaker style door set would be my first choice. Consider a sliding table setup to make your cope cuts .Power feeders are nice to keep your fingers away from cutters!!
94 woodmizer lt40 HD kabota 5200 ford 4000 94 international 4700 flatbed and lots of woodworking tools.

Larry

I bought a reversible stile and rail cutter for one reason, there about 1/3 the price of two cutter sets.  The downside is they are harder to set up, especially the first time.  If you keep good notes of the dimensions by using a height gauge and also keep a sample the second time is pretty fast.  I also use half of the cutter to run the door edge.  I think it looks good as it matches the panel side.

I've used this set for a lot more than cabinet doors.  Blanket chests and other projects.

Second is the raised panel cutter.  I bought a Grizzly.  It made all the shop cabinets, the cabinets in the house, and cabinets in one other house.  I can tell its starting to dull but it still cuts a good profile.

So you can make quality cabinets with only two cutters.  Cost is probably less than router bits if your running a 3/4" spindle shaper.

The third thing you will need is a coping sled.  I make my own and use one or two Destaco clamps.  You need a fresh backboard to prevent tear out splinters on the cope so I normally salvage the clamps and make a new one for each run.  They only take a few minutes with scrap material.  They work just as well as the store bought ones.  I make my own fence and it is one piece so alignment is never a problem. 
 


Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Delawhere Jack

Quote from: hackberry jake on June 09, 2015, 05:55:27 PM
Is there a "most common" style of doors I should buy cutters for?

Jake, take a look at what's available at some local lumber yards / home centers. You'll probably find a half round sticking pattern with a slight reveal, maybe some ogee or even just a bevel edge. Take note of how shallow the "raised panel" panels are.

Any pattern you choose to make is going to be much better than what is available to the mass market. Stick with a common pattern and you're more likely to have demand for it in the future. Don't go overboard. Most home buyers these days are more interested in how big a TeeVee they can hang on the wall than what the kitchen cabinets look like.

Andy White

Larry,
A good way to avoid replacing the sleds backboard is a hardwood runner screwed and countersunk to keep the sled out of the cutter. I made several, and reworked them after every new profile was used. I got a Rockler sled with the good clamp and adjustable stop. Attach the hardwood runner to allow about 1" from edge of sled to edge of cutter. Use a back up board to avoid tearout. I've been using this one for two years, and it has never touched the cutter bit. If the router table does not have a slot for the guide, this will not work for you.     Andy
Learning by day, aching by night, but loving every minute of it!! Running HM126 Woodland Mill, Stihl MS290, Homemade Log Arch, JD 5103/FEL and complete woodshop of American Delta tools.

Hilltop366

I used to use a reversible router bit, but when I wanted another profile I bought the matched cutters and liked them so much better I never used the reversible one again.

As far as making the door frame parts I will make the rail double width plus 1 inch roughly, (if i wanted 2" rails cut and dress (1) 5" wide piece per door) then do the coping cuts first with a block at the end to prevent tear out then the grove cut on both outside edges, then rip the rail in two. The rails are still wider than finished size so after the doors are glued up (I leave the styles a bit long as well) and run through the drum sander I trim the doors on a cross cut sled on the table saw.

After switching to making doors this way I found it much less work to get square doors and right length, I also find routing the rails double width is easier and safer.



 

hackberry jake

Is it common to mix profiles? If you are running an ogee stile and rail set, should you run an ogee raised panel cutter? Or could you do a shaker stile and rail set with an ogee raised panel etc?
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

Andy White

hj,
I use mixed profiles all the time, unless the customer wants a concave profile on the door panels. The cutter sets I have don't cut a wide enough profile for my taste. Most of the time, I use the table saw. Can make them wider if you want, but know they will be flat. With the rail and stile profiled, the flat profile looks really good with any of the ogee style profiles.  Just my thoughts.  YMMV          Andy
Learning by day, aching by night, but loving every minute of it!! Running HM126 Woodland Mill, Stihl MS290, Homemade Log Arch, JD 5103/FEL and complete woodshop of American Delta tools.

Bruno of NH

i have some panel cutters that i use on the router table that are smaller.
you run the panel on edge the cutter is small a lot safer imo.
made a lot of doors with this set up 3 1/4 var. speed router .
Jim/Bruno
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

hackberry jake

Quote from: Larry on June 09, 2015, 09:41:03 PM
I bought a reversible stile and rail cutter for one reason, there about 1/3 the price of two cutter sets


Couldn't you just buy two reversable cutters and use them as a set? Looking at prices, this makes the most sense to me. Maybe they have to be matched if they are a set?
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

Larry

Valid question and I don't know the answer.  Next time I get up to Springfield I'll stop in Ballew Saw & Tool and ask them. 
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

WDH

Hilltop,

Excellent tip.  I will try that. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Don_Papenburg

If you buy the revisable sets from the same mfgr at the same time it is a good bet that they will  work.
I would buy shaper cutters if you have a shaper or two . I think that a more consistant job come off the shaper  than a hand held router.
Buy as many panel raising cutters that you like , It gives you and customers options.
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

Hilltop366

Quote from: WDH on June 10, 2015, 09:25:26 PM
Hilltop,

Excellent tip.  I will try that.

A friend that worked in a cabinet shop showed me that trick

I do mark the stiles for total door length and the rails for total rail & stile width for a guide when assembling and trimming.


hackberry jake

a couple more questions.
Do you use under-cutters on the raised panel cutter?
and
Do you use rub-collars/guide bearings or just the fence?

I guess if you do arched top doors, you would have to use rub collars/bearings?
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

WDH

On the router table for arch topped doors, you need a pin to use as a stable point in pivoting around the bit.  Is that the same as a rub collar?  Probably. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Larry

I'm talking shaper since that's all I've ever used.  Sometimes I undercut the back on my raised panels.  It depends on my wood thickness and if I want the panel flush with the rails and stiles.  In a commercial shop they want everything flush since they send the door through a widebelt and finish with a ros.  I sorta like a panel raised higher with a lot of definition.  Most folks don't.  In the house none of the door panels are undercut and they are about 1/8" proud.  In the shop there all undercut...I think.

I use a home made fence for the panel cutter.

I've never made arch top panels on any kind of production basis.  I really wish that I had made some for the house but when I was doing the cabinets I was in the Git-R-Done mode.




Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Just Me

Jake

Take a look at insert tooling. If you think you may end up making doors once in a while it would be a good investment.

Instead of sending out to get sharpened you just buy new inserts, not at all expensive, in fact I price a new set into every job. The other thing about inserts is the carbide is better. Braized carbide by necessity needs to be a certian roughness to adhere where insert carbide can be a finer grain as it is mechanically fastened. Overall Diameter never changes like braised does when sharpened.

I bought The RS2000 Freud system years ago but there are other options. I actually have two systems because you have to take part of the cope stack to make thestick, and I grew tired of that. Others do not do this, but the prices can get pretty steep on some brands like Garniga. I use Frueds insert panel router as well, no problems at all. Mine is aluminum, not really a necessity with a large shaper but I was running multiple small shapers back when I bought this.

Anyway......... If this is a long term investment, inserts are cheaper in the long run.

Larry

jamesamd

Jake, I use a few sets of Sommerfeld panel sets and all of His jointing bits. With His easy set tool setup is a breeze.
And since His bit sets are height matched ,once You have bit height set ,You can swap profiles all You want .
I only use a router table for panel making.

I am making a raised panel cradle for My Grand Daughters Dolls at the moment.    http://sommerfeldtools.com/professional-equipment-and-tools/router-bits-and-sets/router-bit-sets

Easy set    http://sommerfeldtools.com/woodworking-made-easy/easy-set-instructions

Jim
All that is gold does not glitter,not all those that wander are lost.....

tule peak timber

Jake I use all Garniga insert tooling and have been very happy with the performance. The Garniga tooling allows for a wide range of profiles from the common to very unique by simply stacking. It is an investment you build on.  I recently ( the last year or so) started getting into router tooling and I went with Freud. Again happy...
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

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