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Questions about why timber is left

Started by MP_Wall, June 08, 2015, 10:01:40 AM

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MP_Wall

We have some property in central Wisconsin that we had select cut. After cutting and piling the crew left the timber and doesn't want to come back. This was done in Feb. The timber is hard pulp and some some red oak (black) in the 18-24 dbh range. I understand it has been wet but why would a company walk away from the work leaving half the product where it sits.

mpw

mesquite buckeye

They may not have a place to sell it.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Ron Wenrich

Who did the selection?  They've moved on, and to bring equipment back to remove low quality logs probably won't pay for itself.  If they're cutting on a higher quality site, they make more money by not removing yours.  I've seen loggers let logs lay in the woods without skidding them, as it is too low of a value for them to bother with.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

red oaks lumber

sounds like to me they high graded the woods. the log and pulp markets in our area have been insane high price.granted there wasn't alot of frost in the woods this past winter making skidding more difficult but, that dosent change the fact you can't leave wood behind. ;)
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over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Magicman

There is also instances where the logs were less than a full load or species and it's not profitable to haul a partial load.  I have seen a half dozen, etc logs left at the bunching ground or even not skidded up many times.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

WDH

One of my big pet peeves.  It is a sign of very sloppy work.  If they cut them, then they should haul them.  Otherwise, they just pithed away your money.  I agree that it sounds like they high graded your property, took the best, they left the poorer stuff behind, piled on the ground, no less.

Unacceptable. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Magicman

In the instances that I described, the trees were marked and the landowner got paid.  The logger works directly for the sawmill so the decision was made by the buyer (sawmill) to leave the logs.  They also left at least a full load of Cherybark Oak that was marked, paid for, and unfelled.  The weather was pushing and they had to get their stuff out of the woods while they could.

As a note, those trees will be marked and sold again in 15 years.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

thecfarm

Cost more money to come back and get a small load than what it's worth. But there is still no reason for it. I see a few loggers do that around here,but the rest will come and clean up what is left,even if they lose money on it. It makes the yard look alot better. That is what most will see when they drive by at 50mph.
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Clark

It does sound sloppy but depending on how the contract was laid out it might not matter (financially) to you.

If they were paying based on mill scale then yes, you lost money. If this was a lump sum sale based on cruised volume then it shouldn't matter to you.

Also, how much was left behind? Are we talking truckloads or a half-load of pulp?

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

WDH

Clark,

You are exactly right.  In my previous job, I managed the logging system for a large Forest products company.  On any day, there were 300 logging crews harvesting Company timber in the South.  If every logger left half a load on every landing, that adds up to a significant amount of value. 

The expectation was that the logger would plan well and haul all the timber.  Most did just that, and the really good loggers never left even one tree. 

There was one incident where a logger piled about 40 loads, moved out because of weather, never came back, and the wood was too rotten to recover.  The responsibility for that was on both the Company Forester managing that property and the logger.  It was simply poor planning and execution.  I found the timber on an aerial audit. 

I apologize for jumping on this one.  A bit of a sore spot.  In the case where the timber is paid for, the financial loss is on the logger, and does not matter to the landowner.   
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

MP_Wall

All logs were marked by our forester and in compliance with Wis forestry management team for the area (was a scheduled improvement cut). These were hard pulp trees for the most part with some oaks that were at risk for disease so we had them removed. There are several full loads left (3-4), already skidded, with several loads of un-skidded maple for the hard pulp mkt as well. Red Oaks the high prices for what we were scheduled to cut made me think that we would get this done on time and get paid for the wood. Now our forester is scrambling to try and get anyone in to bring it to the mills. We are over just east of Stevens Point, Wi. WDH it is paid for based on scale at mill so we take the bullet on this, and since it is for the taxes on the property I am kind of pithed off about it. There always seems to be some snag when this property gets logging done, delays where the state starts pressing you but loggers won't come or something like this where they come and do half the job and leave us holding the bag.  mpw

Ron Wenrich

When I managed timber sales as either a consultant or a procurement forester, all timber was paid for before harvesting.  The risk of markets or weather then fall on the logger.  I've never been a fan of getting paid after they've been cut.  The risk isn't worth the reward for the landowner.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

beenthere

Sounds like what many WI landowners are facing with the Managed Forest Law (MFL) program. The landowners are contracted with the state to have a management plan in effect and it usually includes a timber harvest. Often too small for any logger interest, and the wood value at a low point.
Almost ends up where the landowner has to pay out rather than get paid for the timber cut.
To encourage (force) landowners to stay in the MFL program, the state puts a high assessment per acre on forested land ($6000 per acre is the norm now) that isn't in the MFL.
The end result isn't the intended "good" forest management, IMO.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

MP_Wall

Our state guys have been pretty good about harvesting when it is worth it and delaying when it isn't, but MFL does keep the taxes pretty low for the size of the property. We will have to iron out more details when we go to harvest a good stand of mature white and red oak in the next few years, I doubt we will go in on pay based on delivery system if this is how we get treated. That said does anyone know what the ownership status of of the timber should be? I assume it is ours free and clear as he left it and that if we contract to have it picked up and sold that it is subject to new agreements between forester/trucker and us. mpw

Jeff

Has the time elapsed on your contract?
Just call me the midget doctor.
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Brad_bb

What Jeff asked... If so can you find a portable band miller who will mill and split the wood and sell the surplus for you (on the hardwood)?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

petefrom bearswamp

25 years of consulting I never did a scale sale, only lump sum .
I did do one job at the landowners insistence with the trees skidded to the landing  and then bid.
He refused a good bid and the logs languished there over the winter.
He finally sold them and took a 60% hit on the price as the logs (maple) had badly degraded.
Get paid up front as Ron indicated.
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Logger003

Where I'm from if your working on public land our forestry service checks on the area that you cut and your not finished till they say you are and if you don't clean up your fined and won't cut again. If your working on private land and you don't clean up they won't sell to you again. It doesn't matter how big or small your operation everyone has to follow the same rules here.

gww

I only have personal experiance with three private owner sells.  In all cases pay was a split as the logs where hauled and the culls where piled up and left or not cut if they could tell it was bad from the ground.  No foresters where involved.  I do have a forester son in law and next time I see him I will ask if he does up front deals or if most are a split.  I had never heard of an upfront payment around here before this thread.  Most of the places I know about were 40 acres or so and not big land management areas.
gww

Sixacresand

Logs left behind are sometimes good opportunities.  With permission, I have removed some good left behind logs. 
"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

Ron Wenrich

Quote from: gww on June 10, 2015, 10:18:39 AM
I only have personal experiance with three private owner sells.  In all cases pay was a split as the logs where hauled and the culls where piled up and left or not cut if they could tell it was bad from the ground.  No foresters where involved. 
gww

Why would you not cut a tree that looked bad from the ground? 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

gww

Ron
QuoteWhy would you not cut a tree that looked bad from the ground?
Because they where cutting a 50/50 split and my opinion is they where taking what was there to make money on and doing as little extra as posible.  They come in cut, load, haul to the mill and then bring a check for half of what the mill gave them.  It was not a clear cut but just to get as many sellable logs as posible.  I didn't know it was ever done any other way.  Like I said, I only know three people that had logging done.  My uncle, my dad and my dads neibor.
gww

Ps we cut the piled cull logs for a couple of years for fire wood.  Easy cutting but hard on chains due to the dirt.

plowboyswr

It must be a Missouri thing. The three times that my Dad and Granddad had any logging done it was done on shares with the logger who was an independent then would call a few mill buyers to bid on the logs. The buyer would come look over the tree length logs mark them where he wanted them cut then scale them after they were cut. Check was cut right on the property. Then it was up to the mill to load and haul them. Had a pile of black walnut that set for 9 months once right next to a black top road.
Just an ole farm boy takin one day at a time.
Steve

MP_Wall

The forester must have said the right thing about when the logs revert to the landowner because the logger is sending a crew to pile the remaining down timber and set up for loading and shipping trucks out as soon as a little gravel goes in two spots on the roads. Thanks for the helpful suggestions.  mpw

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