From tree to flooring

[esracerx46]

Ok, so I bought 5 acres and am building my own house. I had a shag bark hickory roughly 24" in diameter and 32' long, that was dead and had to be taken down. I suspect the culprit was bark beetles as I thought it was healthy when I first purchased the property 3 years ago. I tore down and am building my own house on the property. Since I have another house on the property the county is limiting the size of house I can build. It's 997.5 sq Ft. My neighbor had a shag bark that broke of about 25 feet up in the spring and has said I can have it. I think it would be a shame to turn it into firewood and would love to turn it into flooring for at least part of the house.

I cut it down a month ago and its all solid. One of my customers is a large supplier of kiln dried firewood and mulch. He gave me a couple options. He gave me a number to a company that makes custom flooring. The hang up with them is cost to kiln dry, and his schedule to kiln dry. I talked with my customer and he'll dry it for me for free. He said to bring it to him in 2-3inch thick slabs. Said he'll dry it with some of his stuff. Then he says cut them down again, then sticker them. And then send them to get them planed and shaped.

Another of my customers is just getting into urban wood stuff. He had been in the tree service and mulch business, but just bought a sawmill. I believe it was a timberking 2200. Was contemplating whether to have the flooring company mill it or my customer. Does any of this sound correct to any of you guys that are in the know?

As far as my tree, I see some blue-ish staining. Is that going to make the wood look like crap as far as flooring? Or is that early forms of spalt and not hurt the aesthetics of the lumber?

Appreciate all the insight!!

[Blackgreyhounds]

Welcome to FF.  Forest to flooring is certainly an extremely rewarding adventure.  Wife and I did this with some red oak and wound up installing about 1000 sq-ft.  Usually, you would get the logs sawn 4/4, air-dry for a little while, kiln-dry, mill into flooring, install, sand, finish.

[WDH]

Hickory in 2" to 3" slabs is very difficult to dry.  Takes 2 - 4 times longer to dry than 1" stock.  It will also split and check more.  No need to go the thick route for flooring, only to resaw later.  I would not do that.  No Sir.

[ellmoe]

Hickory in 2" to 3" slabs is very difficult to dry.  Takes 2 - 4 times longer to dry than 1" stock.  It will also split and check more.  No need to go the thick route for flooring, only to resaw later.  I would not do that.  No Sir.

X2. Saw into 4/4, air dry. kiln dry, then make flooring.

[drobertson]

Not real sure where the fellow was going with the suggestion on cutting the hickory that thick.  Almost sounds questionable, but, just saying. It's not the way it's done around here.  Dead or dying trees when brought to a production mill/kiln can take a hit.  4/4 is the standard, and normally sawn and sold with the highest return in the fall and winter, but I believe not completely necessary.  Just more care has to be taken.  For cabin grade, which again in my view is perfect for hickory flooring or cabinetry, is the target.  It has the most character, but
can cause issues with waste once dried.  Not excessive but prevalent.  As mentioned for flooring 4/4 stock, strip, air or kiln. If air dried very close attention to the bugs should be monitored during the process.  Kilning is the preferred if doable by a reputable outfit.  Price the store bought stock and figure the difference.

[esracerx46]

Thanks for your input. I really would prefer to kiln dry to kill any possible insects that may be inside. My dad spoke to the owner of Lumberjacks, the guy that would kiln it and said to use 2-3" slabs. That all sounded funky so I thought I would post here to see what the experts thought. One other question for you. Say the DBH of this tree is 24", if this tree has 30 feet usable, and sawing at 4/4 any idea on approximate square footage it would yield?

I appreciate getting a response from you guys. Figured when something doesn't sound totally right, double check. Couldn't find the answer I was looking for using the google machine so I tried here. Thanks!

[esracerx46]

FWIW, The guy said that if its ripped too thin it will bow when it's dried. He said he did this method with his brothers flooring and it turned out well. And that it would be in the kiln for 2 days...couldnt remember the temperature he said.

[Andy White]

esracerx46,
Scroll to the left of this page, and click on the red toolbox for your answer., Lots of good information here to use.    Andy

[mesquite buckeye]

If you are worried about the boards going crazy when drying, just cut them a bit heavy, like 1 1/8". That helps a lot. Also with flooring you can just cut the pieces shorter if they warp or twist too much. ;D

[WDH]

With respect, somebody is wrong.  Green pecan in the kiln at 4/4" will take almost a month.  Air dried pecan will take at least a week.  Something is not right.  You either misunderstood, or the advice you are getting is not right. 

If the hickory is sawed at 1 1/8' as old mesquite says, and stickered properly on 16" intervals, it will finish plane out to 3/4" no problem. 

Ask that dude some more questions. 

[red oaks lumber]

saw it 1 1/8 sticker for awhile then kiln dry it. the advice you were told about thick slabs run run fast and forget you were ever giving that kinda  advice. i could shoot a ton of holes thru that but,    i want you to end up with a nice useable  floor

[slider]

Find out the name of that kiln that will dry hickory in two days.I want one.

[WDH]

Find out the name of a kiln that will dry hickory, period  :D :D :D. 

[scsmith42]

I'll add my full endorsement to WDH's comments.  I take it that your kiln operator dries firewood and not furniture grade wood?  If so his knowledge is well suited for firewood but not flooring.  If you try to dry thick, green hickory rapidly it will result in both case hardening as well as internal honeycomb inside the planks.  This doesn't matter with firewood but when you resaw honeycombed planks into flooring they will check and distort significantly.  In essence you will destroy the lumber (caveat on drying from green).  If the lumber is air dried below 25% before going into the kiln a rapid drying cycle probably won't damage it, but in two days you will not have equal MC% between the core and the shell of 3" thick planks and when resawn they will cup significantly.

You do not need to kiln dry lumber from green in order to sterilize it.  It is frequently more cost effective to air dry for several months or a year, and then once it has dried as low as it will go (usually 12% - 15% MC) you can place it in a kiln to dry it down to 6% - 8% (typical range for wood used inside a home).  At the end of the drying cycle the kiln operator will "usually" run a sterilization cycle where the core of the lumber is heated above 133F in order to kill any bugs, eggs, larvae, etc that is resident in the lumber.

I don't know about a business called "Lumberjacks", but I am familiar with an online forum called "Lumberjocks".  Most of the posters there are nice, but have a lot of misconceptions about milling and drying lumber.  I finally stopped participating on the site because frequently members that did not know what they were writing about with respect to milling and drying lumber would argue with someone that did.

A 24" diameter log 30' long will yield around 750 board feet of flat sawn lumber.  You will lose around 8% weighted yield in the drying process (shrinkage).  There will be some degrade (cupping, checking, crooks, etc) in the lumber as it dries, but since the trees have been dead for a while you will probably have less crooks but more degrade due to spalting and insect damage.  Yield will be greater if a thin kerf band mill is used for milling; if an older circle blade mill is used the yield will be lower due to kerf losses.

In a perfect world 750 board feet of 1-1/8" green sawn lumber will yield 550 or so square feet of 3/4" flooring (25% loss).  Typically yield will be greater if the boards are cut into short lengths that require less loss on the sides from straight line ripping and moulding the T&G profile.  Plus, since the boards shrink different amounts in terms of width while they are drying (related to their position in the log and the relationship of the growth rings to the face of the board), you will have different widths of dry blanks versus green blanks, and so there will be waste as the blanks are sized to similar widths.

25% loss is pretty much best case; usually 35% loss is typical and if the lumber was milled by a miller that is not experienced in milling flooring blanks the loss can be as great as 50%.

Thus, from your 24" dbh 30' long log I would anticipate a net flooring yield of 375 - 480 square feet.

[esracerx46]

I'll add my full endorsement to WDH's comments.  I take it that your kiln operator dries firewood and not furniture grade wood?  If so his knowledge is well suited for firewood but not flooring.  If you try to dry thick, green hickory rapidly it will result in both case hardening as well as internal honeycomb inside the planks.  This doesn't matter with firewood but when you resaw honeycombed planks into flooring they will check and distort significantly.  In essence you will destroy the lumber (caveat on drying from green).  If the lumber is air dried below 25% before going into the kiln a rapid drying cycle probably won't damage it, but in two days you will not have equal MC% between the core and the shell of 3" thick planks and when resawn they will cup significantly.

You do not need to kiln dry lumber from green in order to sterilize it.  It is frequently more cost effective to air dry for several months or a year, and then once it has dried as low as it will go (usually 12% - 15% MC) you can place it in a kiln to dry it down to 6% - 8% (typical range for wood used inside a home).  At the end of the drying cycle the kiln operator will "usually" run a sterilization cycle where the core of the lumber is heated above 133F in order to kill any bugs, eggs, larvae, etc that is resident in the lumber.

I don't know about a business called "Lumberjacks", but I am familiar with an online forum called "Lumberjocks".  Most of the posters there are nice, but have a lot of misconceptions about milling and drying lumber.  I finally stopped participating on the site because frequently members that did not know what they were writing about with respect to milling and drying lumber would argue with someone that did.

A 24" diameter log 30' long will yield around 750 board feet of flat sawn lumber.  You will lose around 8% weighted yield in the drying process (shrinkage).  There will be some degrade (cupping, checking, crooks, etc) in the lumber as it dries, but since the trees have been dead for a while you will probably have less crooks but more degrade due to spalting and insect damage.  Yield will be greater if a thin kerf band mill is used for milling; if an older circle blade mill is used the yield will be lower due to kerf losses.

In a perfect world 750 board feet of 1-1/8" green sawn lumber will yield 550 or so square feet of 3/4" flooring (25% loss).  Typically yield will be greater if the boards are cut into short lengths that require less loss on the sides from straight line ripping and moulding the T&G profile.  Plus, since the boards shrink different amounts in terms of width while they are drying (related to their position in the log and the relationship of the growth rings to the face of the board), you will have different widths of dry blanks versus green blanks, and so there will be waste as the blanks are sized to similar widths.

25% loss is pretty much best case; usually 35% loss is typical and if the lumber was milled by a miller that is not experienced in milling flooring blanks the loss can be as great as 50%.

Thus, from your 24" dbh 30' long log I would anticipate a net flooring yield of 375 - 480 square feet.

Awesome response! Greatly appreciated! Lumberjacks is a guy local to me ( Northern Illinois) that deals with firewood and mulch on a large scale. Being in the welding business myself my dad worked on his stuff when he was going to college and doing sealcoat in the summer. He found and created this niche market in our area and he's a super nice guy. He recommended the flooring company that custom makes their own flooring from logs. They would do everything from cut, kiln, plane and shape, to install if I wanted. The cost and timeline for him to get it into his kiln led me back to Jack who said he'd dry it for free. Since this stuff has been dead for at least a year, I would assume it's no longer green.

I live 4 miles from work, and another one of my customers thats in between the two has a Timberking 2200. I was contemplating having him cut it to 1-1/8, and then have Jack dry it. But now I'm reconsidering since he's still a little green with the mill. Thanks Again!

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Regarding flooring yields, in addition to 8% shrinkage, there will be a variety of reasons (splits, large knots, stain, warp, overall size of flooring versus size of lumber) that will result in close to 40% yield loss after drying.  So, 40% plus 8% loss gives 52% of the green lumber footage ending up as flooring.  If you need clear or almost clear flooring, then some of this flooring will be rejects, especially with hickory and pecan.

Regarding the volume of lumber from a log, the best estimator is called the "1/4" International Log Rule" but this assumes a 1/4" thick saw blade kerf and 4/4 lumber.  If you have a small band mill then maybe you have 1/8" kerf, so that would increase the recovery by about 10%.  If you saw thicker than 4/4, again there would be an increase.  Tables of log scale are widely available.  Sometimes logs are bought and sold using other log scales.  We could discuss log rules...there was a good article in SAWMILL & WOODLOT magazine about a year ago.

Note that the log rules use the small end diameter.  So your tree that is 24" in diameter might have a 20" diameter 16' log and then a second 16' log that is 16" in diameter which would give you 470 BF of lumber, plus the additions.  And then for flooring, I would guess that 250 square feet of flooring is the maximum.

The drying comments about time are true, although I suspect drying times quoted are a bit short for some kilns.

The blue you see is called sap stain and is a fungus.  Drying will stop the growth, but blue stained flooring is usually considered to be unattractive.  Rapid sawing and drying is critical for you now.

[red oaks lumber]

52% loss ? really gene? even in reclaimed we don't lose 52%. maybe if your using random grade sawed lumber and not using lumber to the max. even then i have a problem with that kinda loss scott 's numbers are alot more in line, we use 15% loss as our base line.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Note that I did say 48% loss and 52% yield.

I was using 8% shrinkage.  I was using log run, which means one piece will have large losses due to pith...4%.  Then, if we had an 8' lumber, with 2" of end checks on each piece of lumber when drying, we would have end trim of 4%.  Then if making 2-1/8" flooring, but you had a 4" wide piece of lumber, then you would only get one piece of flooring, which is a large loss...on the average rip saw losses would be 18%.  You could add drying warp loss (cup and side bend) here too...6%.  Then there will be knots and objectionable defects or about 5% loss.  Then the typical flooring has certain lengths, so there would be 3% trim loss.  So this is 48% already.  Then we would have machining defects too.

Note I am using the green footage as the basis...for reclaimed, you could drop the 8% shrinkage.  In reclaimed, someone has already defected the wood, compared to log run.

We can reduce losses by using end coating, by making random or at least multiple width flooring, and by making character flooring.

[red oaks lumber]

not trying to pull fly crap from pepper gene but, your 8' board should come with 2'' of trim on each end so that nulls that out . if your sawing lumber for flooring(anybody on this forum) will saw there lumber more targeted to a predetermined size. after looking at your numbers closer i have to ask .have you really been around planing and flooring? your numbers don't work.
i'll repeat myself, i saw, kiln dry and make flooring lots of it (well for me) half million feet a year. oaks, ashs maples pines hickories. we use 15% loss as the baseline total not each operation. :)we know what size to saw our lumber to utilize the lumber to the max, i would never use a 1x4 to rip a 2 1/4 strip. please don't use data and numbers that only apply with mills making millions of feet each year. it does not apply. sorry for giving my thoughts.
as to reclaimed its rougher than 30 miles of bad road,no pre defecting there ;D

[hackberry jake]

We can reduce losses by using end coating, by making random or at least multiple width flooring, and by making character flooring.

Or by using linoleum  ;D

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

I have been working in and with flooring mills for almost 50 years, big and small mills.  I spent a month at one mill in MO working specifically on yield improvement, so I do have familiarity.

I think that our difference is how and at what stage we measure the starting bond footage that we compare with the finished square footage.  I am using green lumber volume versus dry square footage of usable flooring.

Note that one other poster in this list used yield data of 25% best, with 35% to 50% being more common.  Add 8% to his numbers as it appears he is talking about the manufacturing plant and therefore KD volume and not green lumber.

I agree that it makes poor sense to use a 1x4 to make 2-1/8 strip flooring, but the original posting was for log run, meaning that the poster wanted to use all the lumber produced.

Also, I am assuming t&g flooring, so  you do need a bit extra width for the tongue that does no show up as square footage.  That is, one BF does not make one square foot of surface.  This 1/4" on 2-1/8" strip flooring would require a piece of wood 2-3/8" minimum, so this tongue is over 5%.

I also stand by the 8% number for shrinkage.  So, we are up to 13% yield loss already.

When ripping lumber and getting good edges, for 5-1/2" wide piece of lumber, there would be three rip saw kerfs totaling over 6%.  The edging strip would easily be another 5% if the lumber was perfectly sized, but warp means much large edging strips in practice, so perhaps 10%.  So now we have 24% to 29% loss.  We also have to throw in loss for defects...pith, large knots, decay, big splits, etc.  and using only 10% is generous.  Where are these numbers wrong so far?

I stand by my comments about end checks.  Two inches per end is common and is a 4% loss of yield.

I very seldom have seen a hardwood sawmill cutting green lumber of a specific width intended for flooring except when they are resawing a cant.  Even then, the cant size is not precisely controlled.  Further, if the cant size is controlled, but if there is any side bend, the size will be wrong, so the cant must be oversized. So, it is virtually impossible to cut a precise green size in hardwoods so there will be substantial loss when ripping.  Further, in my calculations, I assumed log run and that will yield a variety of widths even if a specific size is desired.

[red oaks lumber]

you can't keep using big mills for referancing ;) they don't exsist here. you don't tune your car with nascar specs.
i saw a 1x6 its still 4 b.f green or dry you can't argue that .don't apply some formula to the contrary. your theroy only applies to true grade saw which for almost 100% on this forum that dosen't aplly. so the 8% shrink ins't there ,10% loss for knots checks ect. maybe if your using pallet material.
gene,if it seems i'm bucking on this one you would be right. i'm giving you hard numbers and you keep overlooking that fact. so,if your set on whole log loss the one area you haven;t touched ,when you first saw the log your yeild will show 15-30% oversaw from scale .with that in hand it makes your numbers even that harder to swallow. just sayin  you made your living running numbers i make my living running  lumber ,i can't afford to be wrong

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Thanks for your comments, and I do appreciate the time you have taken to post.

I do think both big and small operations, as I have mentioned before.

Note that the green footage I am using  as a basis for  yield is the actual BF sawn, not the scale footage for the logs.

Did you know that I used to manage a small circular sawmill sawing hardwoods for a few years?  Plus, I even ran a small Woodmizer for six months.  I do know something about this.

I am considering here the original poster that wanted to convert the entire hickory log to flooring.  That means all lumber produced, upper or lower grade, wide or narrow, end splits or not, pith or not, and so on.

[esracerx46]

Geez, didnt want to start a fight. Was really just a curiosity on my part on how much it would yield. Thanks again everybody!

My last question, should I have my local guy just cut it to 1-1/8" slabs, have it dried and stickered...then to the flooring guys so they can maximize yield?

[scsmith42]

Geez, didnt want to start a fight. Was really just a curiosity on my part on how much it would yield. Thanks again everybody!

My last question, should I have my local guy just cut it to 1-1/8" slabs, have it dried and stickered...then to the flooring guys so they can maximize yield?

No.  If you do this you will actually reduce your yield - not increase it.

Let's say that you want a 3" wide finished plank and lengths as short as 24" are acceptable.  Most folks will start off with a 3-1/2" wide blank to go through their moulder, give or take.  This blank needs to be sized a bit wider so that there is room to straight line rip it in case the board crooks a bit during the drying process.   This is an issue with longer lengths of floor boards, but not so much 24" long pieces.

So, you need to add another 1/4" or so of width - let' say that you're shooting for a 3-3/4" wide blank.  A board that can produce two widths of flooring blanks is therefore 7-1/2" wide after drying.  Figure 8% shrinkage so you need to mill a board 8-1/8" wide to net two flooring blanks from it.  And I am presuming good logs w/o many defects.  The poorer quality the logs are the more that the boards will move while drying, and the more safety margin that you need to add to the width.

If your sawyer just flat saws everything and you have a log that will make a 10-1/2" square cant, then you will net eight 10" wide boards that are 1-1/16" thick (with a 1/8" kerf allowance when milling).  Figure each board plus kerf will be 1-3/16" (I use 1.200 as an estimate), which means that you will net 16 flooring blanks from your eight boards.

Now, if the miller knows that he needs to maximize yield of boards in 3-3/4" multiples, instead of squaring up that cant to 10-1/2" x 10-1/2" he will instead make a cant that is 8-1/8" wide and 9-5/8" thick.  He will arrive at the 8-1/8" of width by milling a board off of each side of the cant.  If he is good and you don't have much sapwood he will also try to net one additional narrower board off of the 9-5/8" thick dimension.

If the stars line up, he will net at least 20 flooring blanks instead of 16 from that same log, and if he can pull a narrow one out of the slabs on the outer portion he will net 22 flooring blanks.

That's at least a 20% increase in yield, and better than 30% increase if the slabs are of sufficient quality for an additional board on the top and bottom.

This is *probably* why Steve (Red Oaks Lumber) achieves such a high yield.  He has mastered the art of milling flooring blanks as efficiently as possible from his logs.

Bottom line - find a good miller that knows how to maximize both yield and grade from your logs based upon your desired flooring width.