stupidity strikes hard

[Engineer]

I figured you guys could offer some insight on this story.

I'm working for an out-of-state developer as an engineering consultant, to help THEIR client develop a new chain restaurant location in town.  On my survey, I identified a 50" diameter white oak tree - a significant tree, to be sure, but not something I'd ever want to cut down on account of it being chock full of nails, cable, bolts, clothesline pulleys, and who knows what else.  We figured that the tree would go away, as part of the new construction, but I guess we figured wrong.

On the day the contractor was set to remove the tree, and after all the local permits were in place (not the State permits, though), a group of what could only be called troublemakers - basically community activists who always seem to be stirring up crap - showed up with a local tree surgeon (actually a tree hugger) and the county forester, intending to tie themselves to the tree to prevent its' demise.  They actually made it into the local paper, and the developer agreed to intervene to try to save the tree.  Well, the restaurant chain relented, and the tree has been (temporarily) saved.  

Or is it?  Here's a tree that has been estimated at 200 years old, and in spite of the metal and foreign object content, it has stood for this long.  In the past month, it has had its' bark scarred, it had an underground oil tank removed from beneath its' roots, and all of the root zone within the drip line has been heavily compacted by machinery.  To add insult to injury, the proposed new plan will essentially make this tree into a typical "street tree" - surrounded by pavement and impervious surfaces.  
The locals say that it could live another 200 years or more. I give it five, tops.

Any opinions?

[Ianab]

I suspect you are right, and the more cynical person might also think the developer knows this too  ;)
It might just be way easier to remove a dieing tree in 5 years time for safety reasons than fight the bad PR if they had cut it down to start with.
Of course thats just my view  :D

[Cedarman]

My bet if with you Engineer. Those big trees just do not like there roots messed with. If you keep us posted we could have a long running thread on this one.

[beenthere]

I agree with lanab. It will be easier to remove the tree, when dead. In my experience, white oak doesn't tolerate much root disturbance, and for sure doesn't like to have the surrounding grade raised over its roots and against the base of the tree. The company may want to change its approach, and 'join' the tree protectors, with a 'change-o-heart', while on the side making future plans for how it would 'be removed'. Then make bowls and souvenir projects out of the wood, complete with some of the internal 'junk' that would be 'history'.  Turn it into a plus. Pictures in the restaurant of the 'old' tree standing when it was built, might also bring some sentiment to the whole story. Good luck.

[Tom]

Now that the decision has been made to leave the tree,  I think that a rumor should be started that the tree is to be cut down.   Let the Huggers come back and tie themselves to the tree.  Keep the rumor going and let it be the longest "sit-in" in the history of the country.  I don't know if they will live another 200 years but it would be fun watching them try to hold that tree up while they are tied to it. :D

[J_T]

Let one them tree huggers back into it with his mersey benz and see what happens ??? Tom has a great idia be fun to watch  ;D

[Ron Scott]

Who's jurisdiction is the tree under? The county, if the county forester was involved in keeping it in place? Is the tree in public ownership or private??

[Paschale]

This thread makes me wonder if there have been any tree huggers stormin' the castle of the forestry forum ever.  Those wackos probably all think we're evil, and I wouldn't be surprised if some loonies showed up here, trying to wreak havoc on a website like this that discusses makin' sawdust!

Jeff and Tom, have you guys run into any on here, that you know of?

[Engineer]

FYI,  the tree is on private property.  However, Vermont has what is commonly known as Act 250, or a state land-use law.  It is also commonly known as a colossal pain in the butt, because it allows adjoining landowners, the community in general (represented by its government) and sometimes outside interests; to object to or force to have altered, the proposed development plan.  In this case, the developer was trying to get a jump on the construction season ending, and didn't have his permit in place yet.  Now the state is saying that if he had cut the tree, he probably wouldn't get the permit, thus halting the development.

The irony of it all is, if for whatever reason the development is halted or prevented (one small restaurant in a highly commercial area, by the way), nobody can stop the tree from being removed and there is no civil or criminal penalty for doing so.  In addition, once the restaurant is built, the land use statute has no provision for forcing the developer to keep the tree, and it could be cut down on opening day.  

It will be interesting to see how they propose to change the site plans to accommodate the tree.  I'm just happy the restaurant has their own engineers and I don't have this headache to contend with.  At one time, I thought it should be saved, but after seeing the proposed plans and realizing the amount of junk in the tree, it would up being a liability.

[farmerdoug]

Engineer,

Just curious on how the tree has fared if it is even still there? ??? :

Farmerdoug

[slowzuki]

The local elm seem to do really well, the city will doze right up to the trunk to install curbing during road widening projects.  It cuts through probably a 1/3 of the roots and paves over a quarter or so.  The old things just keep standing.

[Engineer]

Well, the tree is still there.  Seems to be healthy, but it'll be interesting to see how it leafs out in the spring.  They paved up to within 20' of the trunk on all sides.

[Mike_Barcaskey]

kind of ironic. I'm sure the "troublemakers" and "tree huggers" are who the restaurant had identified as future customers

[metalspinner]

We had a similar thing happen here when they built a new library.  The tree was a 50" white ash.  They designed the corner of the library to go around the tree after much fussing by the tree huggers.  Well, when it was all said and done, the log is waiting for me to go pick up at the back of the property and the library has a funny shaped corner to remember the effort to save the tree. :D

[WH_Conley]

We have a highway here in the county that has a funny curve to it, road was going in, huggers were not going to let tree leave. Now tree gone, road still there, funny curve. ???

[rebocardo]

I agree with the five years, though I think the most likely thing to happen is that the roots will shrink from lack of water with the pavement, then you get an unusually hot summer followed by an ice storm it normally would weather, and it tips over and crushes anything it falls on within 100 feet of the tree flat to the ground under 4-6 tons of wood.

[WDH]

I agree with the five years too.  If it has been dug under and compacted all around, history will repeat itself again most likely.  I saw a similar thing happen with an 18" cherry tree that was left in a development.  I watched and waited two years, and sure enough, it died.  I called the development owner and offered him $100 for it.  He seemed suspicious about why I wanted it, and I told him why.  I said better for him to get a little something for it rather than just pay someone to haul it to the landfill and it would be nice to know that the lumber would live on as nice furniture.  He said he would get back to me.  Called him again, and he said when he got time he would talk with me.  About two months later, when I looked again it was gone.  To the landfill.......... :-[

[olyman]

wdh--people like that need to be slapped up alongside their head--what a waste of tree--jealous of you having it----

[olyman]

I agree with the five years, though I think the most likely thing to happen is that the roots will shrink from lack of water with the pavement, then you get an unusually hot summer followed by an ice storm it normally would weather, and it tips over and crushes anything it falls on within 100 feet of the tree flat to the ground under 4-6 tons of wood.

acually--at woodweb--they have a log weight calculator--50 inch base--50 ft tall--40 inch at 50 feet---33,700 lbs---THAT would break concrete--if it fell---

[beenthere]

olyman
We have log weight calculators here on the Forum. Go to the red tool box.
Where in IA you be?

[olyman]

ok--now see red toolbox--west of waterloo--where deere tractors are built---about 35 miles--

[rebocardo]

> THAT would break concrete--if it fell---

No, from experience AFTER it crushes everything flat in its way it punches a hole clean through it.

I posted in the WANTED section for help cutting down a 48" oak for my wife's church. Arranged for a "professional" with insurance to come by to drop it. I warned them all to wait until I put firewood down in front of the tree to break its fall so when it hit it wouldn't damage the parking lot. I wanted to keep the trunk elevated off the ground.

A 48" DBH 109 foot white oak makes quite an "impression" when it falls on cement and blacktop without its cushioning branches  :D

Each lower 10 foot section weighed at least 7,000 pounds, though it was exceptional. The tree was more square then round. I think I posted pictures of the 19"x38" branches 40+ feet up in the air. Some of the other trees I cut up, were as wide but not nearly as tall and heavy.

I have found it kind of weird you can have two trees of the same type and width in the same area and have a huge difference in weight per cubic foot. I imagine the trees say the same thing about us though  ;)

[beenthere]

olyman
must be near that Grundy Center walnut business, and not too distant from Norm and Patty.  Nice country, and near where I grew up.......the four lane hwy 20 goes through the fields I worked as a boy (1/2 mile east of intersection with hwy 21) and some of the tall pine on the farm still stand where I picked off crows in between emptying buckets of milk in the cooler. Good memories, along with drivin tractors out at the experimental farm. And workin at Woody Hayes' brother Ike's Veterinary office in the 50's.

[Murf]

Near here the house prices in the big city got so steep people found it was cheaper to buy an old house and tear it down than to find vacant land.

There was huge areas of the city that had been built up prior to and just after WWII and the average lot size was about double what it is today. Most of them where 100' lots, unheard of in a major city today.

Another desireable feature of these 60 to 70'ish year old subdivisions was the mature landscaping, especially the large shade trees.

The city, bowing to the 'green' groups, forced the developers to protect the mature trees at all costs. They even went so far as to pass a by-law, vesting ownership of said trees with the city, regardless of whether they stood on city property or private land.

Of course that was something they started 20'ish years ago.

Now they have a different problem, those very same trees are dying and dropping widow-makers through the windows of BMW's and Jaguars at a horrendous rate. A typical large thunderstorm will black out thousands of homes and wipe out 6 or 8 cars.

Of course since the city is responsible, after all, they're their trees, the homeowners (or their insurance companies) aren't all that broken up over it.  ;)

You should suggest to your client that if the city wants to protect the tree, maybe they should idemnify the owner in case it dies and becomes an accident waiting to happen.

[Husky]

cut it down and make table tops for the restaurant so they will have a piece of it to remember

[Engineer]

cut it down and make table tops for the restaurant so they will have a piece of it to remember

It's a nice thought, but the restaurant is a Chili's.  They already have their corporate decor.    Plus, they don't care.  It's the local treehuggers that want the tree kept alive - if it dies, they don't care anymore either.   :(