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scrap metal bandmill build

Started by mason44, June 01, 2015, 11:49:25 PM

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mason44

Ive been wanting a mill for a quite a while now, I had my finger on the purchase button on a harbor freight mill, but just couldn't bring myself to purchase one. So here goes my build, I set my budget at $2200, which is about what the hf mill would have cost me. I've never actually seen a mill in person so I'm open to all input.

First cut



 

mason44

 Building tubes for frame slides, boxed 5/16 plate

 



 

mason44

 

 

Carriage frame is 6x6x3/8 tube, will have 1" linear rails and bearings  to guide vertical travel
 

 

mason44

All bearings and motors will be US manufactures, these are the shaft bearings. 2" dodge blocks, and each block has two timkens

  

 [i

Machining shaft

 

mason44


mason44


sandsawmill14

wow :o that will be a heavy duty mill good luck
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: sandsawmill14 on June 02, 2015, 12:10:20 AM
wow :o that will be a heavy duty mill good luck
x2

No fair!  You've got way too many cool tools to use ;)  What are your log specs for this mill?
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

mason44

A few more photos in my gallery

 

mason44

No specs on logs as of now, hope to build a cabin in the future. My shop is in the city so will probably get more tree service logs than anything as Im surrounded by them. It will have 46" clearance between posts and around 46-48" clearance below blade

kelLOGg

WOW! You and Ludo (check out his mill) hold the record for biggest band bill. Nice shop and work. Reminds me of my spare room workshop. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

Magicman

Wow mason44, you have the resources to get-r-done.  :o   ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

york

Hi,for sure i will follow this build,really look`s good.....
Albert

thecfarm

Whoa,whoa and one more whoa. You have WAY too many nice tools to build a mill. And I would also say way too much know how to make it all come out right too.  ;D
I always push the make it long part. Make it long enough to get a 16 foot log on and you still have 4 feet of freed up track and the head is sitting on four feet of track too. Just makes it easier to have the extra room.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Leggman

Now I am jealous. Awesome shop tools.

mason44

Thanks for the compliments guys, ill keep photos coming as I progress. I own/operate a small fabrication shop specializing in bar/ restaurant finish out, which is also another reason I want a mill, I build quite a few bar tops and tables.

Joe Hillmann

Your idea of scrap metal is way nicer than my idea of scrap metal.

mason44

Quote from: Joe Hillmann on June 02, 2015, 10:08:37 AM
Your idea of scrap metal is way nicer than my idea of scrap metal.

Ha, maybe i shouldve said surplus. Everything is designed around steel remnants off other projects, I wont be buying any steel, so my budget is being used for bearings, motors etc

Hilltop366


dustyhat

 (oh) them bearings, money well spent.

fishfighter

You going to build a trailer for your mill? If so, you going to need a couple 3500 lb axles. ;D Just wish I could cut logs that big.

21incher

Wow that is going to be a big one. How many HP will it take for the blade? This will be a great thread to follow. :)
Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, a logrite cant hook and a bread machine. And a Kubota Sidekick with a Defective Subaru motor.

Ox

Makes mine look like a tinker toy.  :D

Very cool to see.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

mason44

Engine is going to be a 34hp kubota 1105t turbo diesel, the back half of this will bolt between the two c-channel frame rails on the saw head. It makes it easy on me as radiator and all brackets will drop on as one unit

 

mason44

I got the carriage all welded together today and head mounted on it, I've managed to keep everything squared up within a 32nd of an inch. I've been drilling and tapping everything before I weld so its almost to the point of being bolt together.

 

mason44

Ive been purchasing all the parts surplus and cheap compared to actual retail. I bought two 25" browning three belt sheaves I plan on chucking in the lathe and turning the grooves off and putting a crown on them for band wheels. The drive wheel will weigh around 70lbs after machining and the idler is a lighter weight sheave and will weigh around 35 lbs



 

mason44

Not sure on trailer yet, I have to 6" h beams I plan on building track out of. Outside of band wheel to band wheel is going to be 102", which leaves me 3" for blade guards, so it will be street legal. The carriage and saw head should weigh in around 2500-2700 lbs

fishpharmer

Everything's bigger in Texas! Including your mill.  Looking good 8)
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

mason44

Ha, I had no intention of building it big, it just keeps growing :D. and like I said Ive never seen one in person so didn't really know what to scale it to, I can rarely recall myself saying a machine is too big or too accurate though ;D...Thanks

fishfighter

Quote from: mason44 on June 02, 2015, 11:34:01 PM
Ha, I had no intention of building it big, it just keeps growing :D. and like I said Ive never seen one in person so didn't really know what to scale it to, I can rarely recall myself saying a machine is too big or too accurate though ;D...Thanks

Well, it sure is going to be a beast.

Magicman

Your blade guides are are the heartbeat of the sawmill.  What are your plans there?
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

mad murdock

You have a lathe with a swing over to accomodate those sheaves?!?  Wow!  Some definite nice "toys" you have   ;D that mill is going to be nice! :)
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

mason44

Quote from: Magicman on June 03, 2015, 07:38:11 AM
Your blade guides are are the heartbeat of the sawmill.  What are your plans there?

I havr a pair of carter guidall 600 wide guides a picked up very cheap off an auction site. Im going to try those, if im unhappy with them ill switch to the more common single roller guide I see used. They will slide the full length of the head on linear bearings via a 12v actuator.

mason44

Quote from: mad murdock on June 03, 2015, 07:59:34 AM
You have a lathe with a swing over to accomodate those sheaves?!?  Wow!  Some definite nice "toys" you have   ;D that mill is going to be nice! :)

The leblonde in the pic has a 27" swing, its a handy machine to have around  ;D I plan on turning the sheaves with them mounted on shaft, so theu should be as true as possible

Magicman

Quote from: mason44 on June 03, 2015, 09:08:43 AMThey will slide the full length of the head on linear bearings via a 12v actuator.
Good, the ability to fully adjust them is of the utmost importance.  Up/down, in/out, vertical tilt up/down, and horizontal tilt left/right.  Wow, 8 way adjusting ability.

Now I am curious about your decision to not use belted bandwheels.   ???   :P
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Ox

I know Cook's Saw swears by solid steel bandwheels vs. belted wheels.  They say the mill will run smoother with less vibration leading to longer blade life.  Also it's supposed to reduce the cupping of the blade so it stays flatter longer for flatter sawing.

I have no experience with high speed metal bandwheels, only slow speed with metal cutting bandsaws, and in this application they work well.

Judging from the Cook's videos they work as well as anything.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

mason44

Reason number 1 is i got these shipped to my door for $70 each,  but also because i wanted a heavier wheel than a single groove sheave could offer. Also a sheave is cast and there is no way they can be perfectly concentric without machining. When I start dialing in the saw I want to be able to rule out as many places as possible I can be losing tolerances. So far everything on the head is more accurate than a band is capable of.

Magicman

Quote from: Ox on June 03, 2015, 11:45:17 AM
I know Cook's Saw swears by solid steel bandwheels vs. belted wheels.
Yes, that is one manufacturer's viewpoint.  WM leans otherwise.  Myself, I am just a user.   ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Ox

Yessir, that's exactly where I'm at as well!  :)
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

mason44

I would think the manufacturers use sheaves because they obviously serve the purpose they are intended to, and meet the price point they need to make the mills affordable. If you look at their larger industrial mills I would think they would use manufactured bandwheels

dustyhat

I can see you know your way around a machine shop . but if you aint been around sawmills much, just a friendly reminder , dont forget them wiper seals on those linear bearings. sawdust can clog up the biggist and littlist things.

mason44

Already installed, missing one though, had to order :)

mason44

I have a full wood shop also, I dont consider myself a professional wood worker, but I can make my way around it

Ox

Do you need a new neighbor and best friend?  ;D
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

mason44

Didn't get much done today as I had to work late, but I did get it standing up supporting itself.

Paul one of my weldors, he's about 6 ft tall to show scale

 

mason44

And mounted actionjacs, I bought them with 16" screws. They weren't quite tall enough so I cut top off and order screw from surplus center

  

 

mason44

And need to machine adapters to mount these to screw jacks. Will have one counter rotating on each jack, with them tied together with a shaft in center. The jacks look far back in picture, but should be pretty close to balance point of saw head after engine is mounted. Each jack is rated for 2.5 tons and everything was rock solid after they were mounted.

 

Joe Hillmann

If you go with steel band wheels rather than belts you will probably have to roll your your blades as well when you are setting and sharpening them.

mason44

Quote from: mason44 on June 03, 2015, 12:13:16 PM
Reason number 1 is i got these shipped to my door for $70 each,  but also because i wanted a heavier wheel than a single groove sheave could offer. Also a sheave is cast and there is no way they can be perfectly concentric without machining. When I start dialing in the saw I want to be able to rule out as many places as possible I can be losing tolerances. So far everything on the head is more accurate than a band is capable of.

After i think about it im wrong on this, most larger sheaves are machoned on the od

mason44

Quote from: Joe Hillmann on June 04, 2015, 10:40:27 AM
If you go with steel band wheels rather than belts you will probably have to roll your your blades as well when you are setting and sharpening them.

Not familiar with rolling a band, is it to flatten? I have a 36" tannewitz, but only run 1" blades and havent had issues so dont know all the ins and outs of blades

Joe Hillmann

Quote from: mason44 on June 04, 2015, 11:50:58 AM
Quote from: Joe Hillmann on June 04, 2015, 10:40:27 AM
If you go with steel band wheels rather than belts you will probably have to roll your your blades as well when you are setting and sharpening them.

Not familiar with rolling a band, is it to flatten? I have a 36" tannewitz, but only run 1" blades and havent had issues so dont know all the ins and outs of blades

Rolling is something cooks seems to think is very important.  None of the other manufactures that I know of suggest it, but cooks is the only one with steel wheels without belts so I assume the belts on the other mills give the blade some cushion to so it isn't as necessary.

Here is a link to cooks view on rolling the blades.

http://www.cookssaw.com/index.php/sawmill-blade-insight/why-do-i-have-to-roll-my-blades

You can also go to cookssaw.com and type roller in the search bar there to get lots of information on how it is done and what it does.

Magicman

The crowned steel bandwheels will gradually cup the blade which then needs to be re-flattened with the band roller.  Belted bandwheels do not cause this cupping.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

mason44

I have little experience with blades but I so have quite a bit of experience hammering, forming and deforming sheet metal as I do quite a bit of it. Metal deforms from heat and pressure or a combination of both,  So whichever wheel builds up the least amount of heat and apploes the lowest psi on the blade will deform the least. Do saws with sheaves apply as much tension as band wheels? And is there a noticeable difference in blade life on a new band and a re-sharpened band?  I'm too impatient to sharpen bands, so ill likely just send ro cooks and hope the roll them.

mason44

Some parts I ordered came in wrong so I havent been able to do much. I did get the back of the mower/ engine cut off and separated the mower harness and engine harness, so now I can just bolt down engine and controller and it will be running. I also mounted the ohio gear box for the carriage travel. I plan on direct driving the urethane vgroove wheels, not sure if it will work or not. I see some folks pushing their carriage, and Im almost certain these will put down more torque than my size 11's.

 

mason44

 

  

  If all goes well travel speed will be 0-70 fpm

mason44

And anyone have any thoughts on these guides? I plan on doubling horizontal bearings for added blade width, but dont want to waste my time installing if conventiinal wisdom says ill be wasting my time

 

Ox

Those guides are a tried and true design and will work.  Most mills today use the single, rear flanged guides that require around 1/4" down pressure to work.  The ones you're showing will work, just make sure you add in adjustments in all axes (plural of axis???) when you build so you can fine tune them.  If these are what you have on hand, I say use them.  If you have a choice between this style or the single, flanged guides I'd say go for the singles.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

DMcCoy

I built my guides with doubled bearings on top and a single at the back.  It would be helpful when changing blades for a lower bearing to hold the blade but it really is not necessary, a small block of UHMW would also work, but I haven't bothered with that either.  If you mount the back bearing slightly offset you can flip them when the inevitable wear groove starts to appear.
Having the blade sandwiched on the dust side of the log might pack both sides of the blade when sawing pitchy logs.  Don't know this for fact but it seems likely.  Also if you get any stringy stuff coming off, and you will, it could jam, where a single upper bearing would allow it to pass.
If I were to do anything to mine I would make the top bearings grease-able.
Hope this helps, my 2 cents.


pineywoods

It's been my experience that greaseable bearings on blade guides don't work very well. When you pump in grease, the old grease will blow the seals, blade lube and sawdust will take out the bearing. The real problem is rpm. A 2 inch roller pressing against a blade traveling 4500 fpm will turn somewhere in the neighbohood of 20,000 rpm, way too much for run-of-the mill grease. At that speed, most of the grease will sling out before you get halfway down the first log. Go with sealed high speed bearings.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

mason44


mason44


mason44

A few more photos are in my gallery 

 

mason44

Andwhees for anyone curious. This is the lighter one/idler, made by baldor

 

beenthere

Please make some written comments about what we should be seeing in your pics. Otherwise, for some of us, they are just "pics".  ;)  And pics in your gallery are to also be in your posts... rules of the game as I understand. tks
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

mason44

Quote from: beenthere on June 18, 2015, 10:28:09 PM
Please make some written comments about what we should be seeing in your pics. Otherwise, for some of us, they are just "pics".  ;)  And pics in your gallery are to also be in your posts... rules of the game as I understand. tks

They actually are just "pics" . More of a log of my build to give others ideas or to make suggestions to myself if they see something that doesnt work. If you have any questions I will gladly answer. Is it better to delete extra photos or delete the close ups?

Ox

You mentioned "don't laugh".  I don't see anything to laugh at, bud!  Looks stout and you're making progress.  Takes longer than you imagined, doesn't it?   :D
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

mason44

Quote from: Ox on June 18, 2015, 11:11:21 PM
You mentioned "don't laugh".  I don't see anything to laugh at, bud!  Looks stout and you're making progress.  Takes longer than you imagined, doesn't it?   :D
I was enterertained byvthe fact i chooed the back of a mower of and set it on my mill, and had a smile on my gace the entire time  ;D. I' m just working on it by myself after hpurs mostly, I only have around 35 hours shop time in it so far, but a lot of staring and head scratching on top of that. I pulled wiring and control panel for the engine from mower so all i have to so is connect fuel line and it will be running. Im just hoping it will make a round log square at this point

Magicman

Quote from: mason44 on June 18, 2015, 10:49:49 PMIs it better to delete extra photos or delete the close ups?
Delete any pictures in your Gallery that are not posted.  Do not ever delete a picture that has been posted on the forum.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

5quarter

You're build is going great. I'm searching in your photos for the "scrap metal".  :D  ;)

You're right on regarding how metal deforms. In the case of bandsaw blades, it is 99% pressure, with heat coming into play only if something else is wrong. Blades will deform (cup away) from a crowned wheel, belted or steel, it doesn't matter. The more tension you run will determine the amount of cupping. We talk about flat blades, but a New blade should never be perfectly flat. It should cup ever so slightly in some conformity with the crown. This way the blade contacts the guide at two points; at the back of the blade and the end of the roller and is able to most effectively obtain and keep control of the band. when the band begins cupping away from the crown of the wheels, the result is that the roller contacts the band at only one point in the center of the blade body, which results in some loss of control. If you're not pushing the limits of your saw that much, you may not notice a difference. The trouble comes at the higher feed rates and wider cuts. Cooks rolls my blades when I send them out and they always come back as good or better than new. Can't say if its because of rolling the bands or not, But they don't charge any extra for the privilege.  8) 8) 
   I'm really enjoying watching your progress and am anxious to see your mill cutting wood. best of luck.
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

mason44

I appreciate your feedback, amd thanks for answering the question on cooks band rolling, thats who I plan on buying/ servicing my blades

Ox

FWIW, I'm using some Cook's Supersharp Silvachrome blades right now.  I love them.  They cut very nice and smooth with minimal tooth marks.  They do leave some extra sawdust on the boards but I expect that to go away some as I sharpen and take some set away.  Currently milling black cherry and they work great!

I chose the Silvachrome because I want maximum blade life.  These are supposed to have the best flex life out of the different blades they use.  I'm also not in production or pushing my mill to its limits or anything.  These blades are a good fit for smaller or manual mills.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

mason44

Control panel mocked up. I had to reroute the harness, from the front. Im using the fuel tanks from mower so I should still have a fuel gauge

 

Ga Mtn Man

I like it.  This is going to be a very cool sawmill. :)
"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

mason44



I haven't had much time to work on mill this summer, they are my busy months, but with the rain back I got a few hours work done on it. The screw Jacks are up amd working, raises and lowers nice and solid. Also fabled up the mounts for the blade guides. 

 



 



 

mason44

 

  Also got air tensioner installed and working. Hopefully it creates enough pressure for proper tension. I also put mounts for hydraulic tensioner if I need

fishfighter

Looking good. Sure is a beast. ;D

york

Well,i would like to bump this,would like to know how this build turned out.....
Albert

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