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my life story, and consideration of a new mill

Started by bkaimwood, May 09, 2015, 06:40:02 AM

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bkaimwood

Good morning fellas...my love for wood is great, I love to mill, and would like to mill full time...or at least close to it...I started building a mill a year and a half ago...it took me over 6 months, but its been sawing now for a year...I'm lucky to get a day a week to saw, but have realized the potential to make a living doing what I love...I work full time, and then some, providing handyman and light general contracting services, as I have my own business... I have to keep doing this as its paying the bills...or at least close to it...but am trying to make the leap to full time sawyer, or close to it...but with the price of a new modern portable mill being 30-40k, its a heck of a payment hanging over your head, even with good down money...I would need the portability of it to work for me, and would need to count on 50 percent of my income coming from mobile sawmill service....so my question or poll for you guys is, is this a realistic expectation? How many of you do mobile sawing, and what percent of your income comes from it? Thank you in advance, opinions welcomed!!!
bk

Chuck White

~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!


Magicman

Adding your location to your profile would help with answering questions. 

Different areas have different markets for portable sawing and also for sawing/selling lumber.  If selling, whether you have trees, or will you have to buy logs?  Then there is the log buying market?

How much portable sawing competition is there?  Is there a need for portable sawing that is not already being met by other sawyers in the area?  Customers are reluctant to change sawyers just because you are there.  Much depends upon the quality produced by current sawyers.  Word of mouth is good advertising.  A good website is essential.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

bkaimwood

Good stuff magic man, some stuff I'm trying to factor in...there are half a dozen or so guys in the area that do it, but they are pretty spread out...a couple of them I only found out about until recently, but have been sawing for decades...which supports the loyalty and people going to them for years without the need for advertising theory...word of mouth is the strongest..I'm in PA, there is definitely a timber demand there, and I do buy logs...took a lot of time, but I finally have some local friends/suppliers...it kills me to look at stacks of lumber on Craigslist for sale, cut by a local "sawyer"... They look like surfboards to me...just cuz you have 40 grand for a woodmizer doesn't mean you are a sawyer...although I'm a beginner, I have the passion and eye for it, and quality is always first...my home made saw cuts arrow straight for miles, and I've got compliments from my small but loyal customer pool how straight my lumber is, and dimensionally consistent...when the cuts stop being straight, I stop cutting to find out why...I burn stacks of lumber for firewood just like some of the mentioned stacks some sell for lumber...sorry if I got off on a tangent...
bk

bkaimwood

Please fellas, help a brother out, don't let this thread die a slow painful death...the question at hand...of the saywers here with portable mills, who provide portable sawmill service, what percentage of your income is from this service, or sawing away from home?
bk

shakebone

Welcome and hi! I offer both I have a stationary mill setup And a portable mill I prefer stationary any day I cringe at having to go out to saw but I like things setup my way mine is down to 20% portable and hoping I can get it to 0%.I do know magic man is portable and loves it find your spot and make it work
Lt40 super desiel , LT 35 hyd , New Holland ls 180 , Case 75xt ,
So many logs so little time.

Ox

I know a sizeable portion of the guys who are portable are also "retired" from other jobs, are supplementing a part time job or do it for the fact it's something to do that they enjoy.
Why not start with a good website and some small advertising in a local paper and see where it gets you?  You'll know what you'll be looking at if and when jobs come in.
I wouldn't burn any bridges before I knew I had it in the bag.
There are guys who make it work at 50% of their total pay needed.  So it's doable, absolutely.  In your area?  Who knows. Have to try and see.  Start small!
I would think if you're in the sticks with country folk around you'd do alright but if you're in yuppieville I think they prefer the "good stuff" at the "big stores".  This is what it's like around here, anyway.
Do a search in this sawmill forum on sawmill business, portable sawmill business, etc.  This is a topic that's been hit on a bunch.  There's enough info to keep you busy reading for hours.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Ox

Oh, and welcome to the FF!  I always forget to say that...
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

gww

It looks like I get to shadow ox's thoughts on this thread.  I couldn't agree more with his common sence approch.  I wanted to answer earlier but didn't have the spicific background to answer on the sawmilling portion of the topic.  I can answer on the jumping in with both feet first.  I never quit a job cause I was sure I was going to get something better.  I always waited till the better was a sure thing.  I know some have and have stuck with it long enough to get it to work but I have seen many mistakes made where they made the switch to early and just couldn't make it through the tough times.  I talked with a guy that had an equiptment rental place once and was lamminating that he didn't have what I wanted.  He said he never bought anything unless he was getting three request a week for it.  I believe this is not a bad way to move toward what you want with out the risk of an all or nothing situation.  My sister bought a photography buisness and was eventually successful but lost money for the first 15 years before it became viable.  I also have never enjoyed any job every day and so went with the money first and then if you can work in things you like better, work towards that untill it gives you no choice cause you are so busy that you can't do both and what you like pays better.  I know this is not what you ask but it doesn't hurt to say "proceed with caution"

I wish you the best
gww

bkaimwood

Thanks u very much oxe and gww...pretty much what I was looking for...hoping some more "polls" come in...gww, your plan I agree is perfect... Pretty much, advertise, see what happens, and never abandon the knowns, never burn bridges...the only problem with the plan is I don't have a portable mill...I have a huge home made mill, and it cuts high quality, straight wood...2 problems is, its not realistically portable, and high production and home made aren't the best 2 words in a sentence...I am considering a new lt40 hydraulic diesel, and the quote is in...what this "poll" was designed to do was help me down decide if I could make the payments...I have a good downpayment, but a monthly payment is still just that...I would feel better if the majority of the fellas said, yup, good idea, most of us do 50% of our business on the road...so far, not the case...in the
last 2 weeks, the phone has been nearly dead for custom lumber...but rang off the hook from late fall to early spring...which was when i couldnt do anything, especially with the bad winter we had here in PA...but i built a barn, so I'm ready to go through winter this year...so I become more and more cautious... I think the best thing to do now is keep saving to eliminate or further minimize payments, and reconsider next year...sucks, cuz a production mill would help the home lumber business, and my body, a ton...I try to saw as much as I can (which isn't very much), but feel like I'll never catch up...I'm too busy running my handyman/light contracting business, which is what is paying the bills, and not by much...I gotta pile of logs over 8 feet high, 40 foot wide, and am tired of seeing timber going bad and selling it off as firewood...I feel I'm so close, but so far from truly making it work...thanks for the advice and listening to me fellas...just a dude chasing a dream here...
bk

Verticaltrx

Quote from: bkaimwood on May 13, 2015, 07:02:06 AM
...I am considering a new lt40 hydraulic diesel, and the quote is in...what this "poll" was designed to do was help me down decide if I could make the payments...I have a good downpayment, but a monthly payment is still just that...

Never borrow money to start a business, it's one of the quickest ways to failure. Building a business more slowly and debt free will not only be smarter financially (no interest, low risk) but will also be less stressful. 

I think you should maybe look into other income streams from a mill rather than just portable sawing. That seems like a really tough way to make a living to me, my hats off to the guys who can do it.

You mentioned you are a contractor, what about utilizing your own wood in your projects? That's exactly what I do (I'm a barn builder) and it turns a much better profit per bf vs custom sawing. I spend about a day per week harvesting trees, a day milling lumber, and the rest of my time building. The further you take it (kiln dried/finished lumber/fine carpentry/furniture) the higher your return is. I realize it's almost impossible to use rough sawn, ungraded lumber for residential framing in most places, but there are tons of applications where you could utilize your own lumber. From nice hardwood flooring, to custom cabinetry, to wood siding and trim, custom decks, outdoor projects, the list goes on. You can also work the 'locally harvested and milled' lumber aspect here in your advertising, people are really starting to appreciate that nowadays.

That being said, if you adopt that sort of business model, suddenly you don't need a $40K mill to be competitive. There are a handful of guys on here, myself included, making a decent living with an LT15 or similar sized mill through value added products. You could even step up to an LT15GO, LT28 or LT35 manual and still be able to do some portable sawing jobs on the side, and hopefully pay cash for it.


Wood-Mizer LT15G19

Verticaltrx

Oh, and as for your stationary vs portable poll, I really like being stationary. Having all my support equipment handy, water and electric nearby, pressure washer and air compressor, lots of big pallets to stack lumber on, and having everything layout properly and efficiently make milling much more enjoyable, to me at least. Also increases productivity.
Wood-Mizer LT15G19

drobertson

Quote from: bkaimwood on May 12, 2015, 08:19:40 PM
Please fellas, help a brother out, don't let this thread die a slow painful death...the question at hand...of the saywers here with portable mills, who provide portable sawmill service, what percentage of your income is from this service, or sawing away from home?
I started out stationary in 04' but keep the portable concept in mind, (the main reason I bought the mill) It started out about 50/50 for the first few years, then 100% portable the whole year of 08'  then back to about a 25/75, 75% being in my shed, now I'm stuck here ;D
not because I cant' go portable, just don't get the calls I did,  the folks are just bringing the logs now.  Having the portability is a plus in my view, but not a necessity, unless you plan on doing portable work and(or) have the demand
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Ox

Maybe stay stationary but offer a way to haul the customer's logs to your mill for a fee.
Then you'll have the log loading and handling capability for whatever you need in the future.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

bkaimwood

Thanks for bringing me back to earth, verticaltrx...its always been one of my golden rules to not go into debt for business... Easy way to stay out of trouble, and the reason most businesses fail in the first 6 months...the numbers are staggering...anyhow, I almost went against one of my own rules...so I'll slow it down...good advice, good ideas from everyone...I appreciate the support guys, really, keep it coming...started construction on new website today...hopefully it'll help with my phone that's sleeping...thanks again guys...I think I have tears in my eyes...allergies
bk

gww

B
You got the barn and a pile of logs.  You are pretty far ahead of the game.  Saw the logs and get some money along the way and take your time working towards the end and it will all work out.  It is a differrent avenue then you had invisioned but not one counter to it compleetly.  You are in the wood game and the future is bright and safe working with what you have and watching for more.  You never know when you are looking, what you might see.  I remember hunting as a young teen or close to pre teen.

We hunted on a farm and used to say to each other that it was almost the perfect farm.  When my dad had retired and just happened to see a childhood friend (His cousin)  Whos mom and dad owned the farm we use to hunt on and liked so well.  The friend was in town to replace a bathroom floor at the farm and dad offerred to help him.  While fixing the floor it came up that the farm was going to be sold so the parents of the friend could move to a retirement home.  The rest is history.  Dad owns the farm.

It was a freak chain of events that put them together at that time and if a realestate commision had to have been part of it, it might have put the price out of range,  this way bothside did ok.

You never know when you are keeping you eyes open what will come up. 

You might find one in the weeds of someone who just got tired of their toy.  And if you don't you still have what you have to help get the other but it will take a bit longer, might make it sweeter in the end.

Lifes funny
Good luck
gww

SawyerBrown

Welcome, bkaimwood! 

I agree with Ox, for whatever reason, most of the portable sawyers I know are either semi-retired or have a mill mainly for their own use and then occasionally saw for others.  Most are not doing it to put food on the table, but to just make a little "play money", or just because they love doing it. 

I wouldn't think the market would be the same there as here (central Illinois), but I'll give you an opinion anyway.  Most of the jobs I get are relatively small (as few as 2-3 logs, but rarely requiring more than a day), and are typically individuals who have taken a tree(s) down and want to use the lumber.  Probably 90%+ of what I saw are hardwoods -- oak, walnut, hickory being probably the top 3.

So could I make a living doing this?  Not a chance.  An internet search of sawyers in the area (including Chicago, almost 150 miles away) turns up me ... and very little else.  So, for new customers (someone not knowing a sawyer personally), I kind of feel like I've got the upper hand.  But there just isn't that much demand.  A "busy" week might be 3-4 days of sawing.  A "slow" week might be zero.  Which is OK with me!  I love sawing, meeting people, getting folks to use beautiful hardwoods for something other than firewood, and just keeping busy. 

So my "impression" is that portable sawing is primarily done by folks like me and Magicman and others who saw if there's sawing to be done, and don't if there isn't, and either scenario is acceptable.  It's also very seasonal -- very little in the winter, busier spring and fall.  I think trying to do it to make a living would be very risky, and the advice from the other folks is sound -- start slow, maybe with a smaller mill, and don't give up your day job until you see what the market demand is.

Either way, good luck to you, whatever you decide to do!



Pete Brown, Saw It There LLC.  Wood-mizer LT35HDG25, Farmall 'M', 16' trailer.  Custom sawing only (at this time).  Long-time woodworker ... short-time sawyer!

tmarch

Cut the logs you have and store the lumber.  Build a kiln or at least a shed to dry it in, then if you are good with tools and planning I'd try making some small buildings out of the lumber you can saw now.  Seems everyone wants a storage building, small barn, chicken coop etc.  You have the logs so make something and see what it brings.
Retired to the ranch, saw, and sell solar pumps.

5quarter

Bkaimwood....Welcome aboard. What you want is most certainly doable, but no need to drop 30K+ on an hydraulic mill. You were Skilled enough to build a Solid, accurate mill yourself. Take a couple months and some cash and upgrade the mill you already have. No payment and no added pressure to keep the bills paid. It'll also give you time to develop a market for whatever business model you pursue. best of luck.
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

Ox

Your new website is a big step in the right direction.  I myself, being a longtime hick, find that going to the internet first seems to be the way anymore when you want to find something.  Portable or stationary sawyers included. 
Good suggestions posted here by the fellas so far.  You are being wise by following them - well done.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Verticaltrx

Quote from: bkaimwood on May 13, 2015, 07:40:55 PM
Thanks for bringing me back to earth, verticaltrx...its always been one of my golden rules to not go into debt for business... Easy way to stay out of trouble, and the reason most businesses fail in the first 6 months...the numbers are staggering...anyhow, I almost went against one of my own rules...so I'll slow it down...good advice, good ideas from everyone...I appreciate the support guys, really, keep it coming...started construction on new website today...hopefully it'll help with my phone that's sleeping...thanks again guys...I think I have tears in my eyes...allergies

Not a problem, I've built my business this way and so far it has worked out well.

As for getting your business to grow, there are a few things I can suggest. It has taken me a long time to figure this out, but the marketing side of business is just as important the production side. You can make the best products in the world, but if no one knows about you, or only a handful of locals know about you your business will never grow. Word of mouth is great, but it takes something to get people to find you in the first place.

That being said, a good website is the first place to start. I built my first website a few years ago and I'm working on a newer, more professional/modern one as we speak (and keep it updated). Once you have a website with some good info about your business, pictures, customer testimonials, etc you can direct all your advertising back to your website. A YouTube channel is something else to explore.

Business cards are the next step, good professional heavy weight full color ones. Many of the national print shop/sign shops offer free graphic design when you buy cards/signs/whatever from them. Hand out your cards freely, post them places and put one of those weatherproof business card holders on the outside of your truck.

Craigslist is a good free way to advertise, include a link to your website and make your ad look professional. If you have a work truck get some nice lettering/signage on it. Get some of those small yard signs and put one out at the road at your place, or at a customers place while you are working. Look into placing an ad in the local newspaper. Around here it is only $75 to place a half page ad in the local paper, probably higher in most areas but money well spent. Get some custom hats, shirts, jackets made with your company name and logo on them.

In all your advertising you need to work on building a brand for yourself, something that sets you apart.  You could talk about the benefits to the local economy that 'locally harvested and milled' lumber can have. How your product is similar to lumber of generations past, stuff you simply can't buy in the big box stores (but don't directly run down competition, that just looks bad). Talk about good customer service, quick turn around times, etc.

Lastly, be professional in everything you do. Your website, ads, business cards, signage, etc should all look like that of a million dollar company. It only costs a little more to do it right, even hire a graphic designer for some of it if need be. It will really set you apart from the guys just working for beer money. Nothing turns business away faster than handing someone a cheap, shoddy business card or ad that looks like a 5 yr old made it, misspelling and everything, I've actually seen quite a few.

Hope some of this helps, I bet if you get your name out there and really hustle you'll be paying cash for a new Wood-mizer before you know it.  smiley_thumbsup

 



Wood-Mizer LT15G19

bkaimwood

Lettered truck, business cards, Craigslist ad, website, logo t shirts, check, check, check...u got the idea...I think I'm too the point now where its somewhat of a stalemate...only time and hard work will build your business, if you are doing everything else right...thanks again guys for the all the advice, insight, and so on...slabs are big in my area, I'm thinking of adding a slabbed to the other side of my saw "head"... Band saw in one direction, slab saw in the other...could it be time for a new thread?
bk

Ron Wenrich

I'm probably about 75 miles from you, at best.  We had a guy close buy that bought a Wood-Mizer and did portable sawing.  He didn't have much land, so portable was the only way to go.  Then I started to see piles of lumber starting to stack up around his place.  That told me that people wanted him to saw on shares.  That pushed payday further down the road, and he had more risk.  It didn't take that long until the Mizer was gone.  He was doing it part time.

Getting into the business isn't all that hard.  Staying there is the trick. I've been around the business for 35 years and watched many come and go.  Debt is one thing that has killed many.  Others don't have a handle on expenses.  Some lacked the efficiency needed to stay with the competition.

You need some sort of niche if you want to remain small.  You say you have no problems getting logs.  Most guys in our area are sawing hardwoods.  Low grade markets are out there to sufficiently give an outlet for ties and pallet stock.  That gives cash flow if you go the hardwood route. 

But, what do you do with the better lumber?  Your production numbers won't be enough to attract the commercial market.  You'll have to go the next steps by drying and surfacing lumber.  Your competition will be box stores and lumber yards if you want to attract that market.  Without drying, you'll be competing with the other stationary mills in the area that are selling barn wood. 

I helped put a father and son team into the business.  They started with firewood, then moved onto selling logs, then onto a sawmill.  They went the extra route of making pallets and found it to be a dead end.  Their niche was making flooring and custom doors and windows from the lumber that they made.  They sawed a couple of days per month for the lumber they needed for the operation.

You should be in an area that has a bit of pine.  I've sawn some from the Pocono area, and it was pretty good stuff.  Not many mills specialize in pine or hemlock.  Kuhns Bros. were in an area that had a bunch of pine and developed that niche into a very nice log home business.  They took something that was underutilized and made a business.  I wonder if something like utility sheds wouldn't be a nice niche, especially with your access to the Jersey markets.

The slabbing business always intrigued me.  It means a lot of heavy lifting.  I would look at a Lucas mill for doing that type of work.  Lucas has the capabilities to finish slabs.  It is also very portable and can be used for custom sawing.  Talarico is in Mohnton, PA and has built a very nice business from slabs and specialty wood.  Look up his website. 

Find your niche, then work backwards to get the equipment needed to fill it.  I'm not certain the market is sufficient to make a living solely at portable sawing.  And those piles of bad looking wood on Craigslist were probably cut well, they were put up poorly by the owner.  Not all well cut lumber dries well.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bkaimwood

Thanks Ron...more good stuff there...I totally agree with the niche thing...there's a few things I do that have kept me going, and are very slowly helping me grow, and a few things I intentionally stay away from..the first thing, is, I don't compete with big box stores, period...trying to do that with a small operation would be just plain silly. I saw a lot of custom stuff, and many of my customer call me when they want material over 11 1/4" wide, or boards over 1 1/2" thick...big box stores don't sell it, can't get it...I've done some flooring and paneling grade boards, and this is definitely a potential niche...it involves quality, creativity, and so on, something I pride myself in when it comes to sawing. I won't saw ties or pallets, no pride in that for me...money is good, but does not bring happiness...made some great custom thresholds yesterday that you can't buy at any store...client thrilled...I NEED to do stuff that I take pride in. So I guess the trek continues. And just a side note..its easy to tell the difference between poorly sawed boards and poorly stickered lumber...poorly stickered lumber is wavy...poorly sawed lumber is wavy due to thickness variation. Poor workmanship irratates me, one of my peaves. Thank again to all, plan is being developed. I'm looking into a kiln upgrade, and there's a guy coming to look at my chipper I have for sale. If it sells, I may still consider a new woodmizer, just a smaller one...but I gotta have hydraulics, my body isn't improving with age...maybe a LT35...wish it was a hair smaller, and cheaper, may still be a hair out of reach to pay cash and stay out of debt...need something full hydraulic that can make some board feet per hour but can still take on logs way into the late twenties preferably the early thirties...and priced in the late teens...does such a creature exist? Thanks again fellas!!!
bk

Nomad

     Bkaimwood, have you thought about looking into a used mill?  Lots of 'em out there, some with real low hours.  And with a little leg work you might find the right mill at the right price.
Buying a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter
WoodMizer LT50HDD51-WR
Lucas DSM23-19

bkaimwood

Yeah nomad...still considering...referrals already appreciated... Most guys are looking for a few grand below msrp...and I'm not havin'  that!!! Also looking for an used enclosed trailer, but guys are asking more than what a new one is for a 10 year old trailer...prices have come down in 10 years guys, get a grip!!! But the thing that gets me, is they r selling them? Does no one do any research anymore? The new lt15 wide has my eye, but with limited hydraulics... Funny how that will handle more than a lt35 hydro by far...struggling with the happy medium...someone had commented in another thread about who would want to saw a 36" diameter log anyway, and how do u turn them? Me...and a 36" log turns with surprisingly little effort with a can't hook on a properly level surface...I cut lots of slabs, and frankly, don't want to be bothered with anything under 16-18 inch...big heavy logs don't move and require little to no clamping...just tool em on and start sawing... But I'm sure my opinion would change with a modern hydraulic mill I desire...thanks again Nomad.
bk

MAI

Welcome to the FF. 
As you can read, the members are always helpful.  Keep asking.  If I may be of any help please let me know.


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