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Dozer for land clearing & trail/logging road work

Started by wfcjr, May 01, 2015, 09:08:13 AM

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wfcjr

Gents,

What sized dozer is appropriate for logging trail building/maintenance and some clearing work?
Don't need the biggest machine in the world.  Not trying to set any records.
Looking for a good balance between productivity and maneuverability.

Thanks,

Weekend_Sawyer


I would rent one then you can see how it runs and if you like it.
My brother and I have rented dozers a couple of times till we wound up buying a JD355 with a 6 way blade. This is a very nice dozer

Just be careful. Check out reply #552 on the following thread.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,27755.540.html

;D
Jon
Imagine, Me a Tree Farmer.
Jon, Appalachian American Wannabe.

clww

I remember reading that thread. Good stuff! ;)
Many Stihl Saws-16"-60"
"Go Ask The Other Master Chief"
18-Wheeler Driver

wfcjr


BargeMonkey

 Thats something to read.  :D

Back to your question, are you renting or buying a machine ? I dont know what your price range is but i am a diehard G-series deere dozer fan, i would watch for a low hr 450G and jump on it. Series 4 with hoses out the front if you can find one. A 650-700 is a nice dozer, but a little to wide for getting thru the woods sometimes. you can buy a 450G, with woods  package and winch for around 30k if you watch. I would also avoid a 550, for some reason ive seen guys have trouble getting parts, such as finals.

wfcjr

Quote from: BargeMonkey on May 01, 2015, 11:23:50 AM
Thats something to read.  :D

Back to your question, are you renting or buying a machine ? I dont know what your price range is but i am a diehard G-series deere dozer fan, i would watch for a low hr 450G and jump on it. Series 4 with hoses out the front if you can find one. A 650-700 is a nice dozer, but a little to wide for getting thru the woods sometimes. you can buy a 450G, with woods  package and winch for around 30k if you watch. I would also avoid a 550, for some reason ive seen guys have trouble getting parts, such as finals.

What constitutes "low hours" on a dozer?

BargeMonkey

 We have 4 of them, with between 1200 and 10k hrs. JD claims on a dozer under 100hp that 10k frame hrs is minimum but all depends on application. Like anything its all about the care the machine has had.
The newer stuff, h-J series with the sealed + lubed pins are getting alot of hours on chain if your not doing 100mph in reverse. Problem with them is the electronics. We take the brain out of the J every yr to avoid trouble.
I wouldnt be scared of a 450 with 4-6k hrs, but i would a dozer thats been in the woods its whole life, gets beat pretty hard. I watch the machinery trader pretty close and see them for 20k bare dozer quite alot, with 2-4-6k hrs. Blade frame was the weak point in them, ours has a 3/4 graft welded to the bottom.
A dozer suffers external pin wear, an excavator or fellerbuncher is internal due to rocking. Aftermarket undercarriage parts are cheaper but you get what you pay for sometimes. Avoid a 400G and older 350 unless they are giving it away, the cost diff between them and a 450-650 isnt worth the part's hassle.

cutter88

We have a 650g with a forestry package and winch it seems to work well fairly easy to work on...
Romans 10 vs 9 
650G lgp Deere , 640D deere, 644B deere loader, 247B cat, 4290 spit fire , home made fire wood processor, 2008 dodge diesel  and a bunch of huskys and jonsereds (IN MEMORY OF BARRY ROGERSON)

BAP

We had a JD 450C then a JD 450E when I used to farm. They both had the 6 way hydraulic blades and forestry packages. Great machines, very maneuverable in the woods. Able to pull and lot of wood and very capable of building and maintaining wood roads. Nice machines to run, check out Craigslist, there is several on there in both the Vermont and New Hampshire listings.

Raider Bill

Dang, Burn 1 dozer and your labeled for life. :D
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

lynde37avery

John deere dozer all the way. I got a 450c for logging. It's a little monster.
Detroit WHAT?

BargeMonkey

Quote from: lynde37avery on May 01, 2015, 07:55:23 PM
John deere dozer all the way. I got a 450c for logging. It's a little monster.
I would avoid a straight 450 or a B, we had the typical bellhousing track frame issues with a B. Hey, by the way and not to crash someones thread, how are those toes healing up ???

4x4American

I have used 350c and 450b john deere dozers for this type of work.  The 350c had a winch with fairleads and forestry cab protection and a 6 way blade.  It was a handy unit for sure.  I liked the fact that it was small enough to get around in tight quarters.  At work we have 4 dozers.  550, 650, 700h, and a Cat D-5.  I like them all.  The deeres are really nice for creature comforts, and the cat is just a bad kitten, she gives no turkeys, starts up everytime, and gets the job done.
Boy, back in my day..

lynde37avery

Ah c'mon the 450 rocks! Toes good I can operate a clutch pedal now.  8)
Detroit WHAT?

redprospector

To me, it all really depends on how much you intend to use it, and how much you can justify spending.
I bought an old JD 450bc because on average I use it about 4, maybe 5 days a month and just couldn't justify spending 30 or 40 thousand bucks on one. I enjoy welding and wrenching a lot more than making payments too.  ;)
Low hours on a dozer is kinda relevant. Mine has about 12,000 on it, and I looked at several with less than 10,000 that were hammered. Has the maintenance and repairs been kept up with are way more important than hours to me.
If you choose to buy an older dozer (like I did), get the best one you can find and put it in good shape. Maintenance and repairs is a constant, and you never know when you'll get a month or so that it gets used more than normal.
April was one of those months for me.  ;D
2 miles of road, and cleaning out a little pond on top of the usual.


 



 
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

beenthere

I see that is one of those densely populated Ponderosa pine stands..  ;D

Beautiful country there.

Looks like a great spot for a small pond.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

redprospector

Quote from: beenthere on May 02, 2015, 12:04:34 AM
I see that is one of those densely populated Ponderosa pine stands..  ;D

Beautiful country there.

Looks like a great spot for a small pond.
Hahaha! Those are mostly Doug Firs. This is what the Scott Able fire left behind in 2000 (I think it was). Pretty much moonscaped the area except for an occasional pocket of trees here and there.
After a catastrophic fire like this, huge amounts of soil are washed down the canyons when the monsoons hit. Dams, dikes, water bars, and sometimes large burnt snags are put across canyon bottoms to slow down the erosion. That's where this little pond got it's start. Even after 15 years there's a lot of silt that washes down every year.
This is the 3rd year I'll work on this project. The land owner is eating this elephant one bite at a time, and I'm glad, not sure if I could have stood a full dose of it.  :D
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

beenthere

Crossed my mind that might be Doug fir, but the spacing suggested P.Pine in a park-like stand.
Thanks for the clarification...
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

HiTech

There seems to be a lot of Deere fans here and they are a good machine. I prefer a Case. I have a 450 B which I like a lot. Easy to operate, decent power, good on fuel and not so big it doesn't get around good. Also not too pricy used. They made them with a Turbo and without...5 HP difference. Mine is without a Turbo and has a little more throaty sound than the Turbo machines. I have run both and really can't see that much difference. $10 to $15 grand gets a nice machine. They are around 11,000 lb. operating weight.

4x4American

We had a Dresser TD9H that we used to pack bunk and do other farm stuff with.  Liked that dozer alot too. 


I prefer decelerator pedal.
Boy, back in my day..

mad murdock

For me it would depend on what kind of used iron were available. Old internationals are good dozers, i also like Allis-Chalmers. They are some good old machines.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

BEEMERS

Those 450 case dozers are nice machines..very nice grading/finesse machines...not as heavy  as the John Deeres..for heavy work the Deeres will beat them but trail making would be great I did  a ton of it with a 450C..still own an 1150E and a 1550 too big for trails...I now use a TD7H dresser..hey are awesome machines.even the TD8 and 9 like 4x4 American said.
Sometimes bigger dozers have a better price tag..but that's because the demand for them is much lower..stay in the 450 case/John Deere range and you will always have a hundred buyers as opposed to 2 or 3 for a big machine.

longtime lurker

How often will you be wanting to take the girl to town?

Here's why I ask. I was an earthmoving contractor specialising in dozers for 15 years before I went back into sawmilling. There's not a lot of things I can claim to know a lot about, but I can talk dozers all day long and teach a lot of experts a thing or two. Now, when it comes to dozers there's one simple rule - bigger is always better.
The only time that rule doesn't apply is when you need to stick them on a float/lowboy and shift them to the next job, or when it's bogged. Then bigger is just a PITA that costs a fortune. That's okay though because once you get it to where you're going then straight away you start wishing it was bigger again.

A lot depends on the size of your timber and the nature of your ground. A dozer can comfortably pull around half its weight when you're logging. It can pull more but then we run into issues with accelerated final drive wear and hills become problems and well: everything becomes a drama. I read an industry study years ago that found that 95% of bulldozer rollovers resulted in a dozer that could be righted, oil checked etc, and the dozer would be fine to go back to work. The odds for operators arent quite that good ( around 50%) so if you got steeper ground just trust me and get a bigger machine then you think you need. If you've ever been in the cab when a dozer flips and there's spanners and waterbottles and your lunchbox and things flying through the air while you wonder if shes going to stop or keep rolling down a hill well... you don't want to go there okay. Lets justt say that not all the brown stains in my trousers have come from dirt and grease.

The other thing is that the amount a dozer can push is directly proportional to its weight. Engine horsepower has nothing to do with it, HP is just what gets a dozer from point A to point B. Weight determines what happens to that HP once it gets to where it's going. YOu can't push out a stump that requires 10t of force with a dozer that weighs 8t... all you do is spin your tracks or ride on the convertor depending on whether you have low HP or high HP relative to the weight of the machine. Anyone who pushes a stump figures out pretty quickly

I like the JD 450 series dozers. In that class I've owned Cat and Komatsu and while they were both good machines I've also worked a 450 Deere and got to say it would eat either of the others for breakfast. You can do a lot with a little machine like that - it just takes time, and they tend to get beat up because mostly they're struggling with the work.

I like the older flat track Cat 6's. The D6D was a good machine. The D6C was a better machine. The JD 650 series are a nice day at the office and the hydrostatic steer is good - but pricey when it comes time to repair. Those splitter boxes are good till they aren't, if you know what I mean.
Same with the D7's. A D7G is a nice tractor. The D7F was okay, but make sure its got a 2P transmission  because the earlier F's had a weak tranny. A good D7E (if you can still find one thats not bet to death) is one of the best bits of equipment you'll ever find.

High tracks are okay, but only if they got the diff steer setup. Otherwise you're spending more on undercarriage for little increase in actual ability.
Komatsu make a really good dozer and I've owned a few but - at least here in Australia - their backup parts service sucks. Then again in Australia you can say that about anyone except Cat.
Case were ahead of their time for a long time. Still making dozers but parts on the older models are an issue.

Don't buy a dozer from any manufacturer whos gone out of business. There's about a million old International's, Allis Chalmers, Terex ( whoa, the sound of a detroit 71 series in a dozer!!!), Hanomag, Fiat Allis, Euclid, New Holland.... yada yada yada . All can be pretty good machines but where do you get parts for them? Tried to buy a bull gear for a HD21 lately? I have.

Bigger then that and we're talking serious bulldozers.  How wide did you want them roads??? :D
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

wfcjr

Quote from: longtime lurker on May 02, 2015, 06:16:57 PM
How often will you be wanting to take the girl to town?


A lot depends on the size of your timber and the nature of your ground. A dozer can comfortably pull around half its weight when you're logging. ...

I read an industry study years ago that found that 95% of bulldozer rollovers resulted in a dozer that could be righted, oil checked etc, and the dozer would be fine to go back to work. The odds for operators arent quite that good ( around 50%) so if you got steeper ground just trust me and get a bigger machine then you think you need....

The other thing is that the amount a dozer can push is directly proportional to its weight. ...

I like the JD 450 series dozers.  You can do a lot with a little machine like that - it just takes time, and they tend to get beat up because mostly they're struggling with the work....

...The JD 650 series are a nice day at the office and the hydrostatic steer is good - but pricey when it comes time to repair. Those splitter boxes are good till they aren't, if you know what I mean.

... How wide did you want them roads??? :D

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

This is a machine to maintain our place & help with some of our clearing & logging.  Will not be used full time.
Likely a few days each month.

Will use it more for trails, roads, clearings & clean up work.  I have a tractor with a skidding winch that we use to skid out logs.  On the back I was thinking ripper for the road work rather than winch to skid logs.  Am I missing something?

With regard to terrain, it is typical central Vermont mountains.  Stands of softwood.  Stands of maple, birch & beech.  Most of the logs that come off will be softwood.  While portions are quite steep, I really don't have the intention or the expertise to take it anyplace where the slope will be steep enough to roll it... I hope...  Any place were we clear cut for fields are fairly flat or have gentle slopes.  If we have to cut where it's steep, can usually run the winch line from a flat road or trail.  If it is really steep, we leave it alone.  That being said, your point about weight is well taken.

It is interesting that several folks seem to have a very high regard for the JD 450 series.  I have no experience or knowledge about the machine.  It just strikes me a bit funny since they only tip the scales at around 17,000 pounds or so.   But it sounds like that is enough beef.

With regard to trail/road size, I don't need to make boulevards or autobahns.  Just some decent woods trails/roads that we can use to get around the place, get equipment in when we log or clear an acre or two. 

So really looking for the Goldilocks machine, "not too big, not too small, just right".  Fixing trails/roads, making trails/roads, helping with clearing land & moving stumps.  Some of the stumps will be pretty large.

Thanks again.







4x4American

If you plan on yanking out stumps with the dozer, a ripper would be really nice to have on the back to bust up the roots first. 
Boy, back in my day..

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