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tulip poplar beams + treating sills

Started by Greg, September 07, 2004, 09:03:43 AM

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Greg

Hi all,

Spent the better part of the long weekend chainsaw milling a neighbors tulip (yellow) poplar tree into 8x8s. I've still got wood chips in my hair! These poplars grow like mad around here, straight as an arrow, and in a canopy drop all their lower branches before they get too big.

I'm pretty pleased with the results, very few knots, nice and square beams, with beautiful green and brown streaking in the wood. Probably would grade out at #1 at least.

The neighbors had the tree taken down to make room for a storage shed/barn they are putting up. He was going to cut it up and/or burn it. I will end up getting a 12', two 10', one 9', one 8' beams out of the same tree. These beams are going into 12 x 18' (slightly tweaked from Sobon's) garden shed project.

Now to my question. Its proving difficult/expensive to acquire and transport white oak beams for the sills. While I know poplar is not rot resistant, I am tempted, to keep the project moving, use a few of the poplars for my sills, and treat them with a preservative.

The questions are:

1) Since the 8x8s are still quite green, will treating them now do any good? Or should I wait a while for them to dry out a bit and then treat them say next year?

2) Any recommendations on a good, deep penetrating wood preservative for sills?

Thanks,
Greg

p.s.
My foundation will be six poured concrete piers. The sills (and posts) will sit on the them, separated with a sheet of metal flashing.

Greg

Jim_Rogers

Greg:
You should treat the ends with AnchorSeal right away. This will help prevent end splitting and checking, and force the water to evaporate threw the faces of the timber and not the end, thereby causing the ends to crack.

If you go to a store and look at the labels of wood preservatives you'll see what they recommend for applying to "dry wood" or not. I believe they will say apply only to dry wood.

Up here I sell red oak planks for backhoe trailer beds and an old timer told me he was going to use linseed oil and mix it with turpentine to cut it to 50/50 of each. I've been recommending that for trailer planks and several different companies have done that and have been satisfied with the results.
Although you aren't treating planks you could try this, unless someone else posts a better solution or formula for something else.
Good luck with your project.
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Papa Dave

Greg:
I would really think twice about putting the poplar where it could be in contact with moisture on a constant basis.  ::)

I just got back from visiting my Dad near Bristol TN and he has a mill and had cut a lot of poplar. Noticed that it is real bad to warp when cut into boards after it starts to dry.

I guess your beams if cut by boxing the heart will stay straight.

Good luck

Greg

Hey Dave,

Thanks for the heads up. The concrete piers will be 4 to 6 inches out of the ground, keeping the sills away from the ground. That plus the flashing in between, I'm hoping will work.

This is an experimental foundation, I've never done before, so we'll see what results we get. If I had a huge pile of nice flat rock laying around (like they do in New England), I'd use it. But I don't.

Oh yes, by the way, the beams are boxed around the heart.

Greg

IndyIan

Hi Greg,

If there is a pressure treating company close by that might be an option for you as well.  One near me charges $240/thousand board feet for any size of lumber.  I guess you could do all your joints and then get it treated as well.  

Ian  

Jim_Rogers

Greg:
I found some information for you on another forum.
The timber framer there said he had treated his timbers with a preservative and I asked him to tell us about it.
Here is his reply:
Jim: TWP (total wood preservative) is a outdoor above ground product. It was recommended from a quality independent paint store. I am not trying to sell it and will let you know what happens down the road. I told them I needed something that prevents decay, mildew and water damage allows moisture to come out of wood (allows drying) yet won't let water in. It needs to slow down wood from drying too quickly and can apply other oil type finishes over it. It does not leave a surface finish, it's a transparent penetrating stain, preservative. I got the "clear" color. . I indicated my timbers would be exposed for a while as I constructed bents to when I closed in building. Soft maple heart wood is prone to decay so I wanted something to protect it. I used a paint brush to apply to all surfaces and loaded my kerf cut on hidden side of timbers with it. I only put one coat on. One thing I can tell you is that you need good ventilation when you apply it as your eyes sure tear. I have some concerns of possible fumes while inside but figured I need the protection an have covered the TWP with linseed. They also said a large timber framer in area uses tons a watco urethane mix as a finish product some time after the structure closed in. I will put something on for my final finish.
I just found this url on web Link to TWP

Sounds like some great stuff.
Hope this helps
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Greg

Jim,

This TWP stuff looks like exactly what I was after.

I will try it on this building and report back results.

Thanks again!
Greg

beenthere

Greg
Then we will plan to hear from you in about 5 years if it doesn't work and in 20 years if the treatment does work?  :)  
Seems that would be about the time frame one would need to work with to decide if TWP will keep yellow poplar from decaying when used as the sills.  I'm remembering your original question was for a deep, penetrating preservative that would work for green tulip poplar.
I hope your framing plan is such that it will be easy to replace the poplar sills as I don't think you can paint on any treatment that will keep them from decaying (keeping them dry will work however).  
But I'd check with some testing facilities (maybe VA Tech, Blacksburg, or Mississippi State, or the Forest Products Laboratory) to verify such a treatment before betting on it.  I don't suspect 'quality independent paint stores' have much for testing facilities for preservatives, as these tests take years (min of 10 up to 50). Could be just snake oil sales and you probably don't want to invest the time and labor into finding out it doesn't work.
Just my thoughts, and I could be wrong. :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Greg

So be sure to check back in 2009! I don't think a framing plan exists that allows for easy sill replacement...

Actually I plan on using this small building on my property as an experimment/prototype for future outbuildings I hope to eventually sell.

So I will be applying different treatments on different sections of the sills. I plan on experimenting with selective use of wood species that are traditionally deemed less than ideal for buildings. As such, I should be able to observe differences (failures?) and report back a little bit sooner than 20 years ;-)

Again, if my foundation works properly, and the feet stay dry hopefully it won't be much of an issue, regardless of preservative.

Greg

Jim_Rogers

In my area of MA, it is required that all wood be 8" above finish grade of soils. This is to help prevent rot, I guess.
When creating foundation where stone or concrete a moisture barrier should be installed between the foundation and the wood. This will help prevent the wood from wicking up the moisture from the foundation (usually if it's concrete), but I suppose there could be some moisture on the stone from rain water dripping off the roof and splashing up off the soil.
Also, I've seen drawing showing metal flashing between the concrete and wood to prevent carpenter ants and other pests from nesting up into the wood.
All of these methods should be considered when designing wood to foundation connections.
Greg, good luck with your experiments.
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Greg

Back to the treating of green wood sills question...

I've read from multiple sources now that treating green wood (above 30% moisture content) will not work.

The free water or cell bound water (maybe both I forgot) really needs to be freed up for the preservative agent to get in and do its job.

Makes sense to me.

Jim_Rogers

Greg:
Can you quote your sources of this information?

What is the moisture content of your sills?
Do you know how to tell?
One simple way is to weigh the wood and compare to a chart of weights. Convert size to bdft or volume and use chart scales. You can also do a oven dry test.

From the web page of TWP:
SURFACE PREPARATION:
NEW WOOD: All new wood must be thoroughly saturated and exposed to either rain or water; three or more times to open the wood grain and remove excess surface tannins. Allow a minimum of 48 hours of good drying conditions before applying TWP® 100.


This means you need to wash your sills on all sides three times and let thoroughly dry for 48 hours before applying. Also, you can't let them get rained on for another 48 hours while the stuff dries.
This washing water shouldn't penetrate the wood and/or effect the actual moisture content.
But allow the TWP to penetrate, what ever amount it will penetrate. And whatever amount does will help in the ways listed on the web page.

Although I haven't personally used the stuff, I would if I wanted some wood treated.

As to that question, that is wanting to have some wood treated, why do you feel it is necessary to treat the sills?

If you construct the building properly the sills should be under cover for their entire life and not get wet and rot.

When we have constructed timber frames around here before, those that had sills, we placed a 1 1/2" thick piece of pressure treated lumber in between the sill and the foundation, as well as a moisture barrier under this pressure treated mud sill.

Jim Rogers

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

OneWithWood

The cabin next door to me and the one accross the street were built in the mid 1800s.  Both were built using yellow poplar logs for the foundation.  The logs in the cabin next door show very little decay.  We just sawed out 8x8 replacement sills out of yellow poplar for the one accross the street.  Those sills do sit on a stone foundation.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

beenthere

And probably what one doesn't know, is how many times the sills have been replaced since the cabin was originally built  ??? ???

Replacing logs in log cabins used to be the norm in keeping the cabin in shape for another year, so the 'history' books indicate, and that would make sense. Appears to me log cabins were built and lived in because of necessity, availability of cheap materials, and something to live in that was affordable for the ones who couldn't build a real frame house.  Nowadays, they are unique.

Can't help but be reminded of the nearby $300,000 (around 1980) big log cabin (home) built with white pine logs, and within 10 years the problems with decayed logs loomed its ugly head. In the 90's, several attempts to get a reasonable contract to replace the logs failed (no allowance made to change in replacement logs), as did attempts to sell the property (but the rotted logs meant that didn't happen). This home is now beyond repair, and I am not sure what the owners are trying to do with it.  A dream home no more.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

etat

The ole barn I tore down to build my house was sided with yellow poplar.  It was built in the early 60's.  The siding came off of an old house that my papa tore down.  I don't know how old it was, but it was old. There were also some poplar beams under the crib.  These were off the ground on concrete blocks, and were mostly pretty sound except in places where the barn leaked.

The siding was rotted where it contacted the ground.  Above that is was sound, and hard, though extremely weathered.  Had never ever been painted or treated.   Couldn't hardly drive a nail in it.

Lots of the rafters in the barn was old pine.  Where the barn had leaked they were rotted.  Some of the doors were falling off of the barn.

When I moved here about 10 years ago I patched up the old barn.  Mostly with rough sawn red and white oak.  

By several years later termits had about done eat the oak up.  Where it was nailed to that old hard poplar you could see where the termites had eaten up to the poplar, scratched it just a bit, and then went on to something easier to eat.

With this information in hand I sided my house with yellow poplar (I think that's about the same as tulip poplar), and not like aspen poplar at all.

None of it touches the ground, and I constructed the siding with an air space behind it.

It was fairly dry when I screwed it up and though there is some shrinkage, (which I allowed for with laps I cut into the boards '2 by 8's') so far I haven't noticed any problems with warping.  

I treated the boards with home made borax and antifreeze treatment front and back before I put them up.

I have no idea if they'll last as long as that old siding on the barn.

Somewhere in my research I read that yellow poplar doesn't take to pressure treatment well.  

I think (NOT AN EXPERT) that if I were going to use it for foundation beams I would treat it myself, and make sure it doesn't touch the concrete or block.  I'd use sheet valley metal  between the blocks or concrete and the wood and let the metal stick out a bit on both sides and bend it over.  This wil help keep bugs and termites and mices  from climbing onto the wood.

If you're pretty sure that the beams will be in the dry, and kept dry, as they should I'd treat with borax and peg or antifreeze solution.  It shouldn't leach out if rain can't get to it.
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

Greg

QuoteThe ole barn I tore down to build my house was sided with yellow poplar.  It was built...

Thanks for your input... the more the merrier.

Yes, I understand what people call tulip poplar and yellow poplar to be the same thing.

Bottom line is, you've got to keep the sills dry or they will rot. From above by a good roof overhang, and from below by not wicking up moisture from the ground. I think I've got both these solved.

Greg

etat

You're welcome Greg.  Dang it, I surely do like to input.

 I was pretty sure you was on the right track anyways.  Mostly it's just that I'm sorta proud of my poplar siding and wanted to brag on it. Especially after all that work I went through 'screwing it up'.  Guess I orta said I used coated screws and predrilled all them holes. Anyway,  Figured the best way to brag   was to throw all that other in whilst I did it. :)
Old Age and Treachery will outperform Youth and Inexperence. The thing is, getting older is starting to be painful.

PC-Urban-Sawyer

Quote from: Greg on September 13, 2004, 12:22:27 PM
So be sure to check back in 2009! I don't think a framing plan exists that allows for easy sill replacement...

Actually I plan on using this small building on my property as an experimment/prototype for future outbuildings I hope to eventually sell.

So I will be applying different treatments on different sections of the sills. I plan on experimenting with selective use of wood species that are traditionally deemed less than ideal for buildings. As such, I should be able to observe differences (failures?) and report back a little bit sooner than 20 years ;-)

Again, if my foundation works properly, and the feet stay dry hopefully it won't be much of an issue, regardless of preservative.

Greg

Greg,

Per instructions, just checking back with you now that it's been five years...  ;D

Did you use the poplar for the sills?

Did you use anything to treat the sills?

How are they holding up?

What would you do different?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Herb

nrp0450

I too would be interested in how Greg's sills are doing, now 8 years later.
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jueston

as far as i can tell, greg has not been active for 2 years, so i think we might be left without any answers.... ???

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