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Cedar handrails and ballisters? Potential problems?

Started by DPForumDog, April 16, 2015, 07:48:13 PM

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DPForumDog

Hello, 
I want Paw to mill cedar ballisters and handrails for my huge wraparound porch.  The contractor has treated wood 6x6 columns.   I want to face the columns with 3/4 inch cedar and have cedar balusters and cedar handrails and I eventually want to paint it all white.  We just got our first sawmill a few days ago and I know I am dreaming big!

We have cut 3 huge cedar trees but only a month ago, so they are still green.  We know nothing about drying cedar.  But I heard cedar drys very quickly, especially in the Alabama sun under a black tarp.

Somebody please set me straight. Bring me back down to earth!
I appreciate all responses and discussions.
Granny DP
DP Forum Dog
lumber pro hd 36

POSTON WIDEHEAD

IMO, I would think drying Cedar under a black tarp, in the sun may SHOCK the wood into splitting.
I would suggest stack and sticker under a shed with air flow.
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

WDH

I agree.  Sticker stack it and put some fans blowing thru the stack.  Will be air dried in about 30-45 days. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

DPForumDog

Thanks.
Woooshhh.relief  ... I thought someone might  question me painting the cedar white.  Paw thinks we oughta leave it natural.
Granny DP
Granny DP
DP Forum Dog
lumber pro hd 36

Peter Drouin

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on April 16, 2015, 08:04:08 PM
IMO, I would think drying Cedar under a black tarp, in the sun may SHOCK the wood into splitting.
I would suggest stack and sticker under a shed with air flow.




smiley_thumbsup
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

I wasn't gonna say a thing about painting it white. Good idea.

The popular thing today is the vintage, country farm look. Rough cut is in, bark is in and when you think about it....years ago, folks "white washed" their wooden rails, fencing, barns etc.

Painting rough cut Cedar IMO will look really antique. Carry on!  :)
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Magicman

If you leave it natural it will gradually turn grey, especially where it gets direct sunlight.  Avoid using the pieces that have large knots which will be weak.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Possum Creek

Granny, I used cedar for porch rails and drying it was not a problem but you might want to use stainless nails or screws to keep it from having rusty streaks later on.   I used wood royal log oil from Ace hardware on the house and rails and 6 years later it's still nice and bright.        PC

 

DPForumDog

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on April 16, 2015, 09:31:39 PMThe popular thing today is the vintage, country farm look. ....Painting rough cut Cedar IMO will look really antique. Carry on!  :)

That's the look I am going for.


Quote from: Magicman on April 16, 2015, 09:32:10 PMIf you leave it natural it will gradually turn grey, especially where it gets direct sunlight.  Avoid using the pieces that have large knots which will be weak.
That's one reason I want to paint it white.


Quote from: Possum Creek on April 16, 2015, 09:42:57 PMGranny, I used cedar for porch rails and drying it was not a problem but you might want to use stainless nails or screws to keep it from having rusty streaks later on.   I used wood royal log oil from Ace hardware on the house and rails and 6 years later it's still nice and bright.        PC

 

Possum Creek,  that is beautiful!    I will remember the Royal Log Oil tip. 
Granny DP
DP Forum Dog
lumber pro hd 36

Cedarman

Gotta check this Royal Log Oil out.  PC  That is one fine looking rail on a fine looking home.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Magicman

Yup, that railing is amazing.  I also never cease to be amazed at the information that is shared here on the FF.

If one does not learn something every day.....then you were asleep.   smiley_sleeping
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Larry

Cut lots of extra parts.  The balusters like to warp like a dog leg if a knot is in the right place.  Clamps are your friends.  I make two styles, visible fasteners and concealed fasteners.  With the concealed fasteners the top rail goes on as a cap.  All parts can be made on a table saw.  Molded rails can be made on the table saw with a standard molding head.  Hold downs essential.  I make mind on a shaper with power feed to save time.

I've not seen any difference in the final product if I dried for two weeks or a year.  Even with perfect straight lumber the parts like to warp when cut out.  I suppose because of stress being released from the knots.

I'm a gray type of guy (read lazy).  On a deck with a roof the finish lasts a lot longer.  No roof expect yearly maintenance.

This is the last one I put up on my own house.  Its about 60 foot long on this deck plus there is another real small deck at the entry.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Deese

2004 LT40 Super 51hp w/6' bed extension
Cooks AE4P Edger
Cat Claw sharpener/Dual Tooth Setter
Kubota svl75-2 skidsteer w/grapple, forks, brushcutter
1977 Log Hog Knuckleboom loader/truck

Larry

I forgot to mention there are a lot of code requirements, for railing especially on a deck.  Most deal with spacing between balusters to prevent a baby from crawling through, and handrail height.  Even if codes aren't enforced in your local its a good idea to conform for liability and resale reasons.

The trickiest part of a railing is the portion on the stairs.  I've seen some real hack jobs.  There are online calculators that figure the angles, and spacing based on the run/rise and number of steps.  Makes the job much simpler.  Sorry I don't remember the url of the one I've used.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

kelLOGg

Are the treated 6 x 6 columns dry? If they aren't I certainly would not clad them with the cedar. Personally, I would not clad anything wooden outdoors. It poses a drying issue.
Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

DPForumDog

Quote from: kelLOGg on April 17, 2015, 12:12:04 PM
Are the treated 6 x 6 columns dry? If they aren't I certainly would not clad them with the cedar. Personally, I would not clad anything wooden outdoors. It poses a drying issue.
Bob

Our builder wants the columns in vinyl.   Do you think it is safer to clad the posts in vinyl than in cedar?
Thanks
Granny
Granny DP
DP Forum Dog
lumber pro hd 36

DPForumDog

Quote from: Larry on April 17, 2015, 10:08:07 AM
Cut lots of extra parts.  The balusters like to warp like a dog leg if a knot is in the right place.  Clamps are your friends.  I make two styles, visible fasteners and concealed fasteners.  With the concealed fasteners the top rail goes on as a cap.  All parts can be made on a table saw.  Molded rails can be made on the table saw with a standard molding head.  Hold downs essential.  I make mind on a shaper with power feed to save time.

I've not seen any difference in the final product if I dried for two weeks or a year.  Even with perfect straight lumber the parts like to warp when cut out.  I suppose because of stress being released from the knots.

I'm a gray type of guy (read lazy).  On a deck with a roof the finish lasts a lot longer.  No roof expect yearly maintenance.

This is the last one I put up on my own house.  Its about 60 foot long on this deck plus there is another real small deck at the entry.


[/size]
Gosh Larry, You made me think about three things:
(1)  I was hoping that if we used 2x2 inch cedar for the ballister there would not be a warping problem like with regular treated wood.   
(2)  Paw has been concerned about attaching the ballisters to the porch or bottom rail if we use the "ladder system".   If I understand him right he is concerned with moisture getting in where they are connected.
(3)  I would be thrilled if ours looks like yours.
Thanks
Granny
Granny DP
DP Forum Dog
lumber pro hd 36

Larry

The warp comes right after the parts are sawn up to maybe a week later.  I just let all the parts lay for a couple of weeks before installing them.  After it is built it stays stabile. 

The first one I built was 21 years ago, just like the one pictured and other than graying shows no degrade. 
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

kelLOGg

Quote from: DPForumDog on April 17, 2015, 01:06:10 PM
Our builder wants the columns in vinyl.   Do you think it is safer to clad the posts in vinyl than in cedar?
Thanks
Granny

The issue is trapping the moisture slowly released by the posts. All new treated posts I have seen are wet and even un-cladded it would take years to dry them to the core. With vinyl (a very impervious material) the moisture would forever be trapped. What would that do to the post? Being treated , I really don't know but I wouldn't risk it.

Wait a minute - go back to the cedar. I have an idea. Clad with cedar BUT use vertical spacers between the cedar and the treated posts so there is no contact. The spacers would provide a channel for moisture laden air to rise (or fall). The cedar would be about 1/2 inch from the floor and ceiling to allow air entry and exit ports. Essentially, you would have chimney façade of cedar and it would beat the socks off vinyl. Just my $0.02.
Bob




Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

Don_Papenburg

Bob that is a recommended way to build top quality outdoor post/pillars . Even hollow pillars without post inside the air gaps help dry the   insides that get moisture some how.
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

thecfarm

Possum Creek,wrap around porch. WOW! Brenda would never come inside the house if we had that.
Larry,that looks nice too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

sawwood

I have been planning and resawing cedar for a customer that was rebuilding his front porch and back steps
and he has it all done now. Now he is adding a handy cap ramp to the back of his house so more cedar to plane
and size for him. I was out to his house last week and took some photos of the new porch.



 



 



 



 
Norwood M4 manual mill, Solar Kiln, Woodmaster
18" planer/molder

beenthere

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

DPForumDog

We are still thinking about this porch rail system.

option 1  As I stated before our builder wants us to use vinyl. I think in the builder's plan all the ballusters and rails would be 100% vinyl, but the builder would have to face (clad?) the existing treated 4x4s.   

option 2   I LOVE the feel of the cedar Paw milled and planed last weekend.   (its smoother than clean glass).   we have plenty of large cedar trees.   It hink there are two downsides,  One is the "TIME" ime in that we have almost  200  ft of porch as it wraps around the entire house and a deck.  We would be cutting, milling, planing and joingin for months.    and another downside Is that I am not sure how even this smooth cedar will take to paint

option 3   treated lumber  from lowes,  rails, ballusters, etc. 


I thought cedar was less likely to warp than treated but it seems that may not be the case?   


Granny DP
DP Forum Dog
lumber pro hd 36

DPForumDog

Quote from: sawwood on April 18, 2015, 07:15:13 PM
I have been planning and resawing cedar for a customer that was rebuilding his front porch and back steps
and he has it all done now. Now he is adding a handy cap ramp to the back of his house so more cedar to plane
and size for him. I was out to his house last week and took some photos of the new porch.


Sawmill, that is beautiful.   Funny thing I heard was that cedar was too soft for porch flooring.   I guess you cant believe everything you read.
Granny
Granny DP
DP Forum Dog
lumber pro hd 36

tmarch

Vinyl for someone that owns a sawmill just don't seem right.  Raw cedar finished with what's been mentioned would be my choice, then if it turns gray or whatever whitewash it.  Vinyl is easy but also ugly to me.
Retired to the ranch, saw, and sell solar pumps.

shakebone

Stack them all together and band them that helps, of course you could run them up to old shakebone for a kiln treatment  ::)
Lt40 super desiel , LT 35 hyd , New Holland ls 180 , Case 75xt ,
So many logs so little time.

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Cedarman

I would have to close my eyes if we had vinyl on our house.
Sticker and air dry your cedar.  Make 4x4 posts, and air dry them for several weeks.  Then cut into 2x2.  They will be fairly straight.  Chop to length.  I used a router to make fancy corners.  Then used a different router bit to make the faces fancy.  We did 90 feet of porch.  It didn't take all that long to make the parts.  Then we assembled the railing and put in place.
I am a terrible carpenter, but if I can do it, anyone can.
To me graying cedar is way more beautiful than vinyl anyway.
But I am prejudiced.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

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