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4 deg. blades and knotty logs

Started by DMcCoy, April 13, 2015, 08:51:04 AM

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DMcCoy

Custom- I use 7 deg regular blades.
I am sawing from the small end.
I have 2 more 16' logs to cut, 18"-24" dia., full of knots.  Looks like this week end I will get back to sawing as my real job requires my presence. 
There is so much dried pitch on the outside the saw dust is caking under my carriage wheels.  Not to mention the reservoirs of liquid pitch I keep hitting. %^&%&*$%$!!!!!  Can't wait to get these done.
I using simple green and pinesol for lube.
I will try speeding up. 
Thanks,

 

Remle

Each to their own and I'm not trying to convert anyone, but a spray bottle of diesel, with an occasional spray on the blade will cut that pine pitch better than all the soap and water you can throw at it.

Dave Shepard

Quote from: 4x4American on April 13, 2015, 10:08:09 PM
I like the 4 degree blades in frozen pine, what do you guys like for summer time pine sawing?

I've always used 10° for pine. If it's frozen all the way through, the 10°s work still work well. I've used 4° on pine in the summer, but prefer the 10°. I think the next new box of bands I buy is going to be 7°. Peter, are you running Turbo 7°, or the regular 7°?
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Deese

Quote from: Remle on April 14, 2015, 09:28:53 AM
Each to their own and I'm not trying to convert anyone, but a spray bottle of diesel, with an occasional spray on the blade will cut that pine pitch better than all the soap and water you can throw at it.

I agree 100%
2004 LT40 Super 51hp w/6' bed extension
Cooks AE4P Edger
Cat Claw sharpener/Dual Tooth Setter
Kubota svl75-2 skidsteer w/grapple, forks, brushcutter
1977 Log Hog Knuckleboom loader/truck

AnthonyW

Quote from: BCsaw on April 13, 2015, 09:50:24 PM
Understand that I only have 13hp. I do not have the speed capabilities of a lot of people on here. My sawing quicker does not amount to a whole lot, but I believe it was forced to cut through as opposed to finding another path.

My 2 cents.

Along those lines, I only have 15HP. I have found the cut quality will drop if the engine RPM gets too low (and therefore a slower blade FPM). I try to keep the engine RPM around 3000.

MagicMan, interesting observation on the 4 degree blades. Going from the 10 degree to the 7 degree has definitely improved my blade life. I wonder if dropping to 4 degree would shorten it again. I am starting to wonder if there is a correlation between the blade life, the angle, and engine HP (or perhaps engine torque, to remove the difference in RPM between gasoline and diesel engines).

I find it very easy to bog down the engine with the 10 degree, whereas with the 7 degree blades I can maintain a more steady higher engine RPM easier. I can help but think when the engine bogs down with the 10 degree blades, the teeth and band are just getting abused. Literally pulling the tips off the teeth.
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

Peter Drouin

Quote from: Dave Shepard on April 14, 2015, 11:15:03 AM
Quote from: 4x4American on April 13, 2015, 10:08:09 PM
I like the 4 degree blades in frozen pine, what do you guys like for summer time pine sawing?

I've always used 10° for pine. If it's frozen all the way through, the 10°s work still work well. I've used 4° on pine in the summer, but prefer the 10°. I think the next new box of bands I buy is going to be 7°. Peter, are you running Turbo 7°, or the regular 7°?



Regular 7°/ 55/ 1/¼ Dave I sharpen the blades until the hardness on the tooth is gone, Then I toss them. I don't like to spend all my time changing blades. :D :D :D
For me, if the blade gets hot or swims in the log it's dull. With one cut or 100. ;D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Magicman

Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 14, 2015, 12:34:40 PMFor me, if the blade gets hot or swims in the log it's dull. With one cut or 100.
That is a very good statement Peter.   smiley_thumbsup

I tend to get very good blade life from 7° blades, and I am not complaining about the 4° blades.  Even though they certainly saw truer through White Oak and Pine knots, the blade life seems shorter.  When they get dull, they will wave on knots just as badly as any other blade.

There is no substitute for sharp blades regardless of the pitch.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Deese

QuoteThere is no substitute for sharp blades regardless of the pitch.

smiley_thumbsup
2004 LT40 Super 51hp w/6' bed extension
Cooks AE4P Edger
Cat Claw sharpener/Dual Tooth Setter
Kubota svl75-2 skidsteer w/grapple, forks, brushcutter
1977 Log Hog Knuckleboom loader/truck

slider

I saw a good bit of heart pine using cascade until things  start to gum up then i switch to diesel.Like Peter said,when she starts to wander it's time to change blades or sharpen what you have.I have been using 10 degree 55's x 1 1/2 set at 30 with good results.I cut some live oak last weekend with this setup last weekend and had no problems.Probably got lucky.The lower hp mills might not handle that much set.
al glenn

4x4American

Quote from: bandmiller2 on April 14, 2015, 07:08:03 AM
Just because its softwood doesn't mean it will cut easy what causes the problem is the soft to hard interface. I have had bands doing the wave in knotty pine but rolled an oak log on and it cut perfect boards. This contradicts what most say but it seems to me too much set in knotty pine does not give the back of the band any guidance and leaves it free to dodge and dive around knots. Frank C.


I agree, I set my blades at or around .020" and have had good luck in pine. 


Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 14, 2015, 12:34:40 PM
Quote from: Dave Shepard on April 14, 2015, 11:15:03 AM
Quote from: 4x4American on April 13, 2015, 10:08:09 PM
I like the 4 degree blades in frozen pine, what do you guys like for summer time pine sawing?

I've always used 10° for pine. If it's frozen all the way through, the 10°s work still work well. I've used 4° on pine in the summer, but prefer the 10°. I think the next new box of bands I buy is going to be 7°. Peter, are you running Turbo 7°, or the regular 7°?


I have had awful luck with 10 degree blades in frozen pine this past winter.  I tried munkforsager 10°'s and kasco 10's and had waves.  Brand new blades.  Grind em to 4° and they are great.



Regular 7°/ 55/ 1/¼ Dave I sharpen the blades until the hardness on the tooth is gone, Then I toss them. I don't like to spend all my time changing blades. :D :D :D
For me, if the blade gets hot or swims in the log it's dull. With one cut or 100. ;D



Boy, back in my day..

4x4American

I might try the 7 degree blades, Peter, but the thing with me is, I have to get two cams then, and my grinder doesn't do 7 degree at this red hot second.  I need to get some more blades soon!
Boy, back in my day..

WH_Conley

I was sawing some dry, as 3 years old Walnut that had been laying in a concentration yard. In the bright sun you could see sparkles from the Silica in the dust. 10 degree was getting, at most, 200 ft per sharpening. Regardless of sawing speed I was getting waves. Customsawyer recommended the 4's. I got 2 to try. They went 500 ft or better on run time and I could saw close to twice as fast. I think the extra footage was because of the increased sawing speed. I resharpened them with a 10 degree cam that had some modifications made to it. The only thing I have used them on beside the Walnut was some fresh Tulip Poplar. They worked fine. I want to try them on some more of our local species before I brag on them too much.
Bill

Peter Drouin

4x4 sell what you have and get a Wood Mizer sharpener and setter. ;)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

barbender

4x4, what cam do have on your Cat's claw? You can only go down to 8° using the index holes on the sharpener, I just ignore them. I set it down as far as I could get it and it was between 4 and 5 degrees. You don't have to change cams to change the tooth angle.
Too many irons in the fire

4x4American

i have a munkforsager cam and a cooks cam.  i drilled some holes and made it so that it can grind 4 degrees.  I need a wm cam for the 4 degree wm blades.  also prolly gonna try out 7 degree .055" thick blades if i get a box of them ill prolly need another cam but not sure yet.  I might get a wm sharpner and setter down the road,  but ive finally got this one all figured out!
Boy, back in my day..

woodweasel

I guess I don't know any better,cause 75% of what I cut is various oak that I cut with 10 degree blades.Experimented with 7,couldn't tell a lot of difference.cut a lot of pecan and mesquite.!!

Peter Drouin

I never owned a 4° blade  :D I started with 10° and when the 7° came out, got them and never looked back. ;D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Brucer

Back to the Douglas-Fir ...

I've sawn about 400,000 BF of D-Fir using 10° blades. Logs typically range from 12" tops to 18" tops. Quite a bit of my product is FOHC, so I encounter lots of spike knots when I'm close to the center. My lube of choice is water mixed with windshield washer fluid (ratio varies depending on the season).

Anytime I've had wavy cuts, it's been because of alignment or sharpness/set problems with the blade.

Having said all that, one difference I see is the pitch issue. I only buy the very best logs I can get and they rarely have pitch pockets in them. If I see pitch on the outside of a log, or indications of shake at the end, I won't buy the log.

If pitch accumulates on the inside of the blade, it picks up sawdust which then gets compressed into the pitch as the blade goes around the band wheels. This can build up to the point where it acts as though you've taken the set out of the inside of the blade.

Before changing to another type of blade, try using one of the suggestions for keeping your blade free of pitch. See if that fixes the problem.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

YoungStump

Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 15, 2015, 09:17:17 PM
I never owned a 4° blade  :D I started with 10° and when the 7° came out, got them and never looked back. ;D
Have you tried the turbo 7's? I'm thinking it might be well suited to your style of sawing.
Echo Enterprises 45HD2 production series band mill, Cook's Edger, sawing mostly pallet cants, rr ties, and grade lumber.

Peter Drouin

Quote from: YoungStump on April 16, 2015, 12:44:44 AM
Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 15, 2015, 09:17:17 PM
I never owned a 4° blade  :D I started with 10° and when the 7° came out, got them and never looked back. ;D
Have you tried the turbo 7's? I'm thinking it might be well suited to your style of sawing.




No, but I'm thinking about it. Do you use them?
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

JustinW_NZ

We get a fair amount of Doug fir over here and I've just finished sawing a truck load full, I find with good sharp 10s they cut fine as long as you watch your speed closely and if your coming up to a knot back off a little. - it seems to be the going from soft wood to the hard knot, its like hitting concrete all of a sudden some times I've noticed?

The other band I use is the 7deg turbo and found those to be more forgiving but I couldn't get the same top end speed out of them.
I use a lubemizer and commercial sawmill lubricant so have no pitch or sawdust buildup...
1 1/2" .45 bands too...

And as others have said, a dull band no mater what will give you issues...
I never record how long a band cuts for, just when its slowing me down or showing signs of not being perfect it gets swapped..
I cut other woods we get a lot of around here that are way more punishing on the bands than doug fir, and pine I just use 10's and as much speed as I can before it bogs, never have an issue there, however these trees in NZ grow fast and have large growth rings compared to the native homelands I suspect.

Cheers
Justin
Gear I run;
Woodmizer LT40 Super, Treefarmer C4D, 10ton wheel loader.

DMcCoy

I'll increase the lube first but if that doesn't help I'm going to peal the log.  The sap sucker pock marks are thick and the pitch is so heavy on the bark it looks like a Costco frosted muffin.  The inside pockets are not as overwhelming.  There is a small amount of shake near the center.




YoungStump

Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 16, 2015, 05:35:33 AM
Quote from: YoungStump on April 16, 2015, 12:44:44 AM
Quote from: Peter Drouin on April 15, 2015, 09:17:17 PM
I never owned a 4° blade  :D I started with 10° and when the 7° came out, got them and never looked back. ;D
Have you tried the turbo 7's? I'm thinking it might be well suited to your style of sawing.




No, but I'm thinking about it. Do you use them?

Yes they're basically all I use, I haven't ever used the regular 7s but I know of a few full time guys around here that switched from the regular 7 to the turbo 7 and really like them.
Echo Enterprises 45HD2 production series band mill, Cook's Edger, sawing mostly pallet cants, rr ties, and grade lumber.

DMcCoy

Quote from: Brucer on April 16, 2015, 12:22:34 AM
Back to the Douglas-Fir ...

I've sawn about 400,000 BF of D-Fir using 10° blades. Logs typically range from 12" tops to 18" tops. Quite a bit of my product is FOHC, so I encounter lots of spike knots when I'm close to the center. My lube of choice is water mixed with windshield washer fluid (ratio varies depending on the season).

Anytime I've had wavy cuts, it's been because of alignment or sharpness/set problems with the blade.

Having said all that, one difference I see is the pitch issue. I only buy the very best logs I can get and they rarely have pitch pockets in them. If I see pitch on the outside of a log, or indications of shake at the end, I won't buy the log.

If pitch accumulates on the inside of the blade, it picks up sawdust which then gets compressed into the pitch as the blade goes around the band wheels. This can build up to the point where it acts as though you've taken the set out of the inside of the blade.

Before changing to another type of blade, try using one of the suggestions for keeping your blade free of pitch. See if that fixes the problem.

I have been mulling this over and I think you are right (and others).  The blade would dive - build up on top/inside. I have been scraping my blades but there is still some residue.  I going to have to learn how to do this.  Because my mill is homemade perhaps there is a shield that others have that mine does not.  I have a shield that protects the wheel but the guide bearing is still very exposed.
I should have some time to saw over the weekend.

Thank all of you for your help! 





bandmiller2

Remember guys their taint much difference between a 4 and a 7, don't depend on grinder settings. The only real way to tell is with a machinests protractor head, even that's tough to set just right. Set the protractor to the desired degree then put something white behind the band and the square base under the bottom of the band leave a slight gap between the face of the tooth and the tool. If the white gap is the same top to bottom you are as advertised on the tool. Grinding wheels as they wear will tend to give less and less hook unless you agressivly dress them back, less hook is usually a good thing. Many of you that think your grinding 10 are really grinding less, you won't really know unless you check with an accurate protractor. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

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