4 deg. blades and knotty logs

[DMcCoy]

I have been using 7 deg blades in Doug fir.  The knots are creating waves, especially the spike knots.
I try new blades, going slower, more tension.  The knots are @ 2-3" in 16"+ logs.
Not so bad in full width cuts but cutting the easy way through cants is another deal altogether.
Suggestions?

[Magicman]

I have never sawn Doug Fir, but I have found that when sawing mature trees, knots are bad, regardless of the species.  During the past couple of weeks, I have had to resort to 4° blades while sawing 26"+ White Oak and Pine logs.

[DMcCoy]

I think Doug Fir is a little tougher than Pine but the knot issues would be similar.
Anything you do special?
Have you used 4 deg blades in knotty logs?

[Magicman]

Anything you do special?
Have you used 4 deg blades in knotty logs?

Yes, I use plenty of "Cascade" lube to keep the blade free of pitch buildup, and yes, 4° blades do very well with knotty Pine.

[Ga Mtn Man]

Did you notice any difference in your cutting speed with the 4° blades?

[Remle]

I only use 10 degree blades so no comments on blades but, have you tried cutting the log from the small end ? I've had better luck that way, the blade cuts the grain at a steeper angle and dose not seem to follow the long sloping grain while cutting from the larger end. For but logs I cut from the large end/ butt, for the same reason.

[Peter Drouin]

Instead of going slow go faster and see what happens. A lot of times the tooth will eat the knot and cut flat, go slow and it will ride up over, A sharp blade will cut flat. And if you go real slow you won't live long enough to get the log cut.  :D :D Have a sharp blade and try it.

[barbender]

I just sharpened some blades on my Cook's sharpener to 4°, my initial impression on white oak is good, but I haven't sawn enough to know for sure how I like it. From what I've read on here, I am hoping to gain a couple of things- 1.Increased stability in the cut and 2.Hopefully holding an edge longer the dry white oak dulls blades fast.

[Magicman]

My personal experience is that the 4° blades dull faster.  Since they are closer to 90°, they are doing more "scraping" where the 10° blades do more "cutting".  Just my experience, and reason for those thoughts.

[caveman]

Yesterday Jmoore and I quarter sawed some big live oak slabs using a 4° blade. Until this blade/job, we have only used 10° blades.  The 4° blade sawed flat and left a nice, smooth finish.  The blade did cut slower at the end of the day.  Initially, I am pleased with the 4° blades in what is usually a challenging wood to saw.  Also, we decided to coil and tie the 10° bands with a red zip tie (three letters in ten/red and tie the 4°'s with another color).

  

 
This log was 48" on the big end and we were using smallish saws (545 and 359 Husqvarnas to rip).
Caveman

[Nomad]

     Caveman, calling Live Oak "challenging" is like calling the Grand Canyon a hole in the ground.  I'm glad to hear 4 degree blades worked on it; I'm ready to get some of 'em too.  I absolutely hate sawing live oak!!!

[Dave Shepard]

I've heard live oak is some of the toughest sawing around. The only live oak I know of in MA is in the ocean. Jim_Rogers sawed some up that had been submerged for a long time. Tough going.

[customsawyer]

Live oak is like sawing pecan. Some logs are easy and some are knot. ;D
@DMcCoy are the 7° blades you are using, are they the turbos or the regular?

[WDH]

On no.  The mention of sawing pecan gives me nightmares.  Live oak is probably worser. 

[Magicman]

Then would Hickory be more worser??   ???

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

.......... more worser??   ???

You're one of dem that talks funny ain't you?  ;D

[BCsaw]

DMcCoy, I cut a lot of Doug Fir with 10° blades and no issues. I sawed a 35" diameter log yesterday and it had some big knots, again no issues.

I have had some issues with waves on really wide cuts though. One issue was a dulling blade. Easy fix. There was also a time or two that the blade seemed sharp enough but still tended to surf. Thanks to the forum and advice from guys like Peter, I experimented pushing faster. My instinct was to slow down in the wide cuts, but I tried going faster and kept the engine "well into the governor". Success. Thanks Peter D! :D ;D

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Wider cuts need lower head speed due to the blade having more flex when the blade guides are at their widest.
This pertains to all blades.

[BCsaw]

Understand that I only have 13hp. I do not have the speed capabilities of a lot of people on here. My sawing quicker does not amount to a whole lot, but I believe it was forced to cut through as opposed to finding another path.

My 2 cents.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

A very good 2 cents. 

[4x4American]

I like the 4 degree blades in frozen pine, what do you guys like for summer time pine sawing?

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I like the 4 degree blades in frozen pine, what do you guys like for summer time pine sawing?

I use the 4 degree and LOTS OF LUBE in the resin days of summer.  ;D

[Peter Drouin]

I like the 4 degree blades in frozen pine, what do you guys like for summer time pine sawing?

Get some 7°/ 55 and give her some. :D

[Peter Drouin]

Understand that I only have 13hp. I do not have the speed capabilities of a lot of people on here. My sawing quicker does not amount to a whole lot, but I believe it was forced to cut through as opposed to finding another path.

My 2 cents.

A lot of guys think If I go slow it will cut flat, And all your doing is dulling the blade. ;D

[bandmiller2]

Just because its softwood doesn't mean it will cut easy what causes the problem is the soft to hard interface. I have had bands doing the wave in knotty pine but rolled an oak log on and it cut perfect boards. This contradicts what most say but it seems to me too much set in knotty pine does not give the back of the band any guidance and leaves it free to dodge and dive around knots. Frank C.

[DMcCoy]

Custom- I use 7 deg regular blades.
I am sawing from the small end.
I have 2 more 16' logs to cut, 18"-24" dia., full of knots.  Looks like this week end I will get back to sawing as my real job requires my presence. 
There is so much dried pitch on the outside the saw dust is caking under my carriage wheels.  Not to mention the reservoirs of liquid pitch I keep hitting. %^&%&*$%$!!!!!  Can't wait to get these done.
I using simple green and pinesol for lube.
I will try speeding up. 
Thanks,

 

[Remle]

Each to their own and I'm not trying to convert anyone, but a spray bottle of diesel, with an occasional spray on the blade will cut that pine pitch better than all the soap and water you can throw at it.

[Dave Shepard]

I like the 4 degree blades in frozen pine, what do you guys like for summer time pine sawing?

I've always used 10° for pine. If it's frozen all the way through, the 10°s work still work well. I've used 4° on pine in the summer, but prefer the 10°. I think the next new box of bands I buy is going to be 7°. Peter, are you running Turbo 7°, or the regular 7°?

[Deese]

Each to their own and I'm not trying to convert anyone, but a spray bottle of diesel, with an occasional spray on the blade will cut that pine pitch better than all the soap and water you can throw at it.

I agree 100%

[AnthonyW]

Understand that I only have 13hp. I do not have the speed capabilities of a lot of people on here. My sawing quicker does not amount to a whole lot, but I believe it was forced to cut through as opposed to finding another path.

My 2 cents.

Along those lines, I only have 15HP. I have found the cut quality will drop if the engine RPM gets too low (and therefore a slower blade FPM). I try to keep the engine RPM around 3000.

MagicMan, interesting observation on the 4 degree blades. Going from the 10 degree to the 7 degree has definitely improved my blade life. I wonder if dropping to 4 degree would shorten it again. I am starting to wonder if there is a correlation between the blade life, the angle, and engine HP (or perhaps engine torque, to remove the difference in RPM between gasoline and diesel engines).

I find it very easy to bog down the engine with the 10 degree, whereas with the 7 degree blades I can maintain a more steady higher engine RPM easier. I can help but think when the engine bogs down with the 10 degree blades, the teeth and band are just getting abused. Literally pulling the tips off the teeth.

[Peter Drouin]

I like the 4 degree blades in frozen pine, what do you guys like for summer time pine sawing?

I've always used 10° for pine. If it's frozen all the way through, the 10°s work still work well. I've used 4° on pine in the summer, but prefer the 10°. I think the next new box of bands I buy is going to be 7°. Peter, are you running Turbo 7°, or the regular 7°?

Regular 7°/ 55/ 1/¼ Dave I sharpen the blades until the hardness on the tooth is gone, Then I toss them. I don't like to spend all my time changing blades. :D :D :D
For me, if the blade gets hot or swims in the log it's dull. With one cut or 100. ;D

[Magicman]

For me, if the blade gets hot or swims in the log it's dull. With one cut or 100.

That is a very good statement Peter.   

I tend to get very good blade life from 7° blades, and I am not complaining about the 4° blades.  Even though they certainly saw truer through White Oak and Pine knots, the blade life seems shorter.  When they get dull, they will wave on knots just as badly as any other blade.

There is no substitute for sharp blades regardless of the pitch.

[Deese]

There is no substitute for sharp blades regardless of the pitch.

[slider]

I saw a good bit of heart pine using cascade until things  start to gum up then i switch to diesel.Like Peter said,when she starts to wander it's time to change blades or sharpen what you have.I have been using 10 degree 55's x 1 1/2 set at 30 with good results.I cut some live oak last weekend with this setup last weekend and had no problems.Probably got lucky.The lower hp mills might not handle that much set.

[4x4American]

Just because its softwood doesn't mean it will cut easy what causes the problem is the soft to hard interface. I have had bands doing the wave in knotty pine but rolled an oak log on and it cut perfect boards. This contradicts what most say but it seems to me too much set in knotty pine does not give the back of the band any guidance and leaves it free to dodge and dive around knots. Frank C.

I agree, I set my blades at or around .020" and have had good luck in pine. 

I like the 4 degree blades in frozen pine, what do you guys like for summer time pine sawing?

I've always used 10° for pine. If it's frozen all the way through, the 10°s work still work well. I've used 4° on pine in the summer, but prefer the 10°. I think the next new box of bands I buy is going to be 7°. Peter, are you running Turbo 7°, or the regular 7°?

I have had awful luck with 10 degree blades in frozen pine this past winter.  I tried munkforsager 10°'s and kasco 10's and had waves.  Brand new blades.  Grind em to 4° and they are great.



Regular 7°/ 55/ 1/¼ Dave I sharpen the blades until the hardness on the tooth is gone, Then I toss them. I don't like to spend all my time changing blades. :D :D :D
For me, if the blade gets hot or swims in the log it's dull. With one cut or 100. ;D

[4x4American]

I might try the 7 degree blades, Peter, but the thing with me is, I have to get two cams then, and my grinder doesn't do 7 degree at this red hot second.  I need to get some more blades soon!

[WH_Conley]

I was sawing some dry, as 3 years old Walnut that had been laying in a concentration yard. In the bright sun you could see sparkles from the Silica in the dust. 10 degree was getting, at most, 200 ft per sharpening. Regardless of sawing speed I was getting waves. Customsawyer recommended the 4's. I got 2 to try. They went 500 ft or better on run time and I could saw close to twice as fast. I think the extra footage was because of the increased sawing speed. I resharpened them with a 10 degree cam that had some modifications made to it. The only thing I have used them on beside the Walnut was some fresh Tulip Poplar. They worked fine. I want to try them on some more of our local species before I brag on them too much.

[Peter Drouin]

4x4 sell what you have and get a Wood Mizer sharpener and setter. ;)

[barbender]

4x4, what cam do have on your Cat's claw? You can only go down to 8° using the index holes on the sharpener, I just ignore them. I set it down as far as I could get it and it was between 4 and 5 degrees. You don't have to change cams to change the tooth angle.

[4x4American]

i have a munkforsager cam and a cooks cam.  i drilled some holes and made it so that it can grind 4 degrees.  I need a wm cam for the 4 degree wm blades.  also prolly gonna try out 7 degree .055" thick blades if i get a box of them ill prolly need another cam but not sure yet.  I might get a wm sharpner and setter down the road,  but ive finally got this one all figured out!

[woodweasel]

I guess I don't know any better,cause 75% of what I cut is various oak that I cut with 10 degree blades.Experimented with 7,couldn't tell a lot of difference.cut a lot of pecan and mesquite.!!

[Peter Drouin]

I never owned a 4° blade  :D I started with 10° and when the 7° came out, got them and never looked back. ;D

[Brucer]

Back to the Douglas-Fir ...

I've sawn about 400,000 BF of D-Fir using 10° blades. Logs typically range from 12" tops to 18" tops. Quite a bit of my product is FOHC, so I encounter lots of spike knots when I'm close to the center. My lube of choice is water mixed with windshield washer fluid (ratio varies depending on the season).

Anytime I've had wavy cuts, it's been because of alignment or sharpness/set problems with the blade.

Having said all that, one difference I see is the pitch issue. I only buy the very best logs I can get and they rarely have pitch pockets in them. If I see pitch on the outside of a log, or indications of shake at the end, I won't buy the log.

If pitch accumulates on the inside of the blade, it picks up sawdust which then gets compressed into the pitch as the blade goes around the band wheels. This can build up to the point where it acts as though you've taken the set out of the inside of the blade.

Before changing to another type of blade, try using one of the suggestions for keeping your blade free of pitch. See if that fixes the problem.

[YoungStump]

I never owned a 4° blade  :D I started with 10° and when the 7° came out, got them and never looked back. ;D

Have you tried the turbo 7's? I'm thinking it might be well suited to your style of sawing.

[Peter Drouin]

I never owned a 4° blade  :D I started with 10° and when the 7° came out, got them and never looked back. ;D

Have you tried the turbo 7's? I'm thinking it might be well suited to your style of sawing.

No, but I'm thinking about it. Do you use them?

[JustinW_NZ]

We get a fair amount of Doug fir over here and I've just finished sawing a truck load full, I find with good sharp 10s they cut fine as long as you watch your speed closely and if your coming up to a knot back off a little. - it seems to be the going from soft wood to the hard knot, its like hitting concrete all of a sudden some times I've noticed?

The other band I use is the 7deg turbo and found those to be more forgiving but I couldn't get the same top end speed out of them.
I use a lubemizer and commercial sawmill lubricant so have no pitch or sawdust buildup...
1 1/2" .45 bands too...

And as others have said, a dull band no mater what will give you issues...
I never record how long a band cuts for, just when its slowing me down or showing signs of not being perfect it gets swapped..
I cut other woods we get a lot of around here that are way more punishing on the bands than doug fir, and pine I just use 10's and as much speed as I can before it bogs, never have an issue there, however these trees in NZ grow fast and have large growth rings compared to the native homelands I suspect.

Cheers
Justin

[DMcCoy]

I'll increase the lube first but if that doesn't help I'm going to peal the log.  The sap sucker pock marks are thick and the pitch is so heavy on the bark it looks like a Costco frosted muffin.  The inside pockets are not as overwhelming.  There is a small amount of shake near the center.

[YoungStump]

I never owned a 4° blade  :D I started with 10° and when the 7° came out, got them and never looked back. ;D

Have you tried the turbo 7's? I'm thinking it might be well suited to your style of sawing.

No, but I'm thinking about it. Do you use them?

Yes they're basically all I use, I haven't ever used the regular 7s but I know of a few full time guys around here that switched from the regular 7 to the turbo 7 and really like them.

[DMcCoy]

Back to the Douglas-Fir ...

I've sawn about 400,000 BF of D-Fir using 10° blades. Logs typically range from 12" tops to 18" tops. Quite a bit of my product is FOHC, so I encounter lots of spike knots when I'm close to the center. My lube of choice is water mixed with windshield washer fluid (ratio varies depending on the season).

Anytime I've had wavy cuts, it's been because of alignment or sharpness/set problems with the blade.

Having said all that, one difference I see is the pitch issue. I only buy the very best logs I can get and they rarely have pitch pockets in them. If I see pitch on the outside of a log, or indications of shake at the end, I won't buy the log.

If pitch accumulates on the inside of the blade, it picks up sawdust which then gets compressed into the pitch as the blade goes around the band wheels. This can build up to the point where it acts as though you've taken the set out of the inside of the blade.

Before changing to another type of blade, try using one of the suggestions for keeping your blade free of pitch. See if that fixes the problem.

I have been mulling this over and I think you are right (and others).  The blade would dive - build up on top/inside. I have been scraping my blades but there is still some residue.  I going to have to learn how to do this.  Because my mill is homemade perhaps there is a shield that others have that mine does not.  I have a shield that protects the wheel but the guide bearing is still very exposed.
I should have some time to saw over the weekend.

Thank all of you for your help! 

[bandmiller2]

Remember guys their taint much difference between a 4 and a 7, don't depend on grinder settings. The only real way to tell is with a machinests protractor head, even that's tough to set just right. Set the protractor to the desired degree then put something white behind the band and the square base under the bottom of the band leave a slight gap between the face of the tooth and the tool. If the white gap is the same top to bottom you are as advertised on the tool. Grinding wheels as they wear will tend to give less and less hook unless you agressivly dress them back, less hook is usually a good thing. Many of you that think your grinding 10 are really grinding less, you won't really know unless you check with an accurate protractor. Frank C.

[4x4American]

Personally I prefer a thermometer over a machinists protractor to figure out the degrees.   :D

[tmarch]

 For some of us this has been educational, thanks. 8)

[AnthonyW]

I never owned a 4° blade  :D I started with 10° and when the 7° came out, got them and never looked back. ;D

Have you tried the turbo 7's? I'm thinking it might be well suited to your style of sawing.

What's the difference?



No, but I'm thinking about it. Do you use them?

Yes they're basically all I use, I haven't ever used the regular 7s but I know of a few full time guys around here that switched from the regular 7 to the turbo 7 and really like them.

[Magicman]

Those multiple quotes are most confusing.   smiley_dizzy

Sometimes it is much simpler to just scroll up to follow a conversation or train of thought.   :

[YoungStump]

The Turbo 7 is a 7/39 which means it has a 7 degree hook angle and a 39 degree back angle, the regular 7 is a 7/34 the hook angle is the same but it has a 34 degree back angle.
This gives the Turbo 7 a deeper gullet which allows for faster feed rates, it is a more aggressive band designed for higher horsepower mills.

[shakebone]

I really like the cutting speed and life of the 7° but when u hit those huge knotty logs nothing beats them 4°for wave free cuts

[DMcCoy]

Update
I added a sawdust guard to the roller guide on the exiting side.  Snug as I could to the blade without hitting.  That made a big difference in blade pitch/sawdust buildup.  Now the lube I'm using has a fighting chance.
So far it is cutting better and the blade is staying clean, but those big knots are still a pita.  Going slower before and through the knot is the only way I can get it to cut flat.   
I use a 4 T porta power for blade tension and it's pumped tight.  I think I will try some 4 deg blades.