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Cedar Logs?

Started by pabst79, April 12, 2015, 03:10:40 PM

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pabst79

 I'm not sure if this is the correct place for this question? I have a good friend who asked me today what a load of red oak logs would cost, he has a big problem with erosion in his yard, he has about a 250ft stretch of lawn that meets a river bank and slops away at a 45 to almost a 60 degree angle, concrete of rail ties would be too expensive for him. So he was thinking of staking in logs, I told him oak would rot too soon, for that amount of work. I was thinking Cedar logs would hold up better? What do you guys think? What would he expect to pay for a load of Cedar logs? He asked and I have no idea.  ???
Josh
Not sure which came first, but I have chickens and eggs.

sandsawmill14

used electric poles would be better  cedar dosent have very much strength if they are going to be very long. Far as the price generally $60-65 per ton around here :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

pabst79

I'm guessing they would be stacked in an overlapping line, not sure how much weight they would have to hold, but the power pole idea sounds good too. :)
Not sure which came first, but I have chickens and eggs.

Ron Wenrich

Are you planning to fill in behind the poles?  You could tie the poles into the ground by putting some perpendicular to the other poles.  How wide of an area are you talking about?

I'm not sure of the expense of used poles.  The local utility company may have some that they will sell cheap.  There are also some recyclers around that have used poles and ties.  I'm not sure of the expense, but they'll last long. 

As for oak, the sapwood would rot fairly fast.  The heartwood would last a good while, especially the part that isn't in contact with the dirt.  By the time it decomposes, your bank should be fairly stable.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

pabst79

There are steel stakes already in place from a previous owner, I would say they are 2ft down the bank, so if dirt would pile up on the top side, then if grass seeding would take, maybe problem could be solved. Length wise, its about a 200-250ft stretch of bank/lawn.
Not sure which came first, but I have chickens and eggs.

Ron Wenrich

They use 2x material as shoring on construction projects.  They put down I bars and drop 2x10s down the slots.  Probably overkill for your project.

I'm thinking you aren't talking about a high retaining wall.  You could use those stakes and use treated 2x6 for a wall.  They'll last a long time, and would be fairly attractive.  If you need additional stakes, you could use either steel or wood.  I'm not sure how cost effective it would be.  Also, you could lay treated fence posts down as a wall.  Treated landscape timbers or even 4x4 posts are also available. 

If you got cedar logs, it may do the trick, but the sapwood would rot.  To offset that, you could saw the sapwood off, but you end up with a lot of waste and time spent. 

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

John Mc

Do you have much black locust out your way? That stuff is great for rot resistance.

If you are having trouble with soil slumping down the slope, I would second Ron's recommendation to lay some perpendicular to the wall - to be buried on the up hill side of the wall and tied in well to the wall. With the kind of slopes you are talking about, that's about the best way to prevent the wall from slowing falling down the slope
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

pabst79

No black locust by me, maybe west in the farm country. Thanks for the advice! I will forward the info and see where it go's.  :)
Not sure which came first, but I have chickens and eggs.

sandhills

I would tell him to at least check on the power line poles, around here they give the used ones away but you have to sign a waiver saying they won't be used for power poles again.  At least that's the way it used to be, haven't asked for a few years.

John Mc

Be careful with the power line poles. Some large ones were replaced near the home of a friend of mine about a year ago. It turns out a good bit of the preservative had leached into the soil. When the soil was disturbed, the toxic chemicals migrated to the source of my friend's spring-fed well (according to the "experts" this stuff couldn't migrate that far).  My friends woke one morning to find their water stunk and an oily sheen on their toilets when they flushed. They had it tested and were told not to drink or take showers in the water. The power company ended up having to drill them a new well (which isn't cheap around here - most drilled wells are around 500 ft deep).

We're told this was a highly unusual situation. Still, something tho think about if your poles are going to be near your well or a garden or something.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

sandhills

I didn't think of that aspect, especially along a river, that has the tendency to get very ugly.  Good point.

Ron Wenrich

Power poles usually have a higher treat in the bottom 5', at least the old ones did.  Also, they inspect poles periodically and retreat the top 1'.  If not done right, you could get some leaching into soil from that.  We use to do a cattle treat when in a pasture that would prevent cows from licking the treat.  The upper parts have been in the weather for a long time, and probably have leached pretty well.  I would also think a lot would depend on the type of treat. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

beenthere

Sorry John, but I don't believe that happened. But do believe that someone got by with the hype that it truly did happen. The easy (cheapest) way out was to settle up with a new well.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

kwendt

Locust all the way. they are like iron. They take like 70 plus years to rot or more. Surveyors in the Everglades area still find the locust posts standing - set in the mud/water after 60--100 years.

I don't know anything about power poles - other than what they look like.

But... Does your friend need rip rap to hold the soil/bank for erosion? Check out what folks are using in your area for canal or sea retaining wall: rip rap... sea wall. Down here they use railway ballast rock, or corrugated metal sheathing held by something I don't know what. I've seen pilings used.... which are similar to phone poles, but not the same treat on them.

Just a random, odd thought... 
87 acres abandoned northern Maine farm and forest to reclaim. 20 acres in fields, 55 acre woodlot: maple, spruce, cedar and mixed. Deer, bear, moose, fox, mink, snowshoe and lynx. So far: a 1950 Fergie TO-20, hand tools, and a forge. (And a husband!)

pabst79

He was thinking rock, but at 325 a quad axle load (X 8-12 loads) he thought logs might be cheaper? I have no idea what a load of black locust go's for? Power poles would work, but the DNR might have a bird, being they will be sitting 30-40ft above the water line of the Black River or during flood stage, the water may come into contact with whatever he decides to shore it up with. I will see if he can get me some pics of the area, to get a better idea of what he's up against.  :)
Not sure which came first, but I have chickens and eggs.

John Mc

Quote from: beenthere on April 14, 2015, 08:07:03 PM
Sorry John, but I don't believe that happened. But do believe that someone got by with the hype that it truly did happen. The easy (cheapest) way out was to settle up with a new well.
Beenthere - I can understand the skepticism. Everyone has a story about something that happened to a friend, our your cousin's neighbor or whatever. However, your doubt in this case is misplaced.

I am on the select board (basically the governing council) of the town in which it did in fact happen. When the landowner complained to the power company, they offered to drill the new well, but wanted the landowner to sign a non-disclosure agreement as part of the settlement and agree that the new well was their sole remedy. The landowner wisely refused, and notified the town and the state. The town health officer visited, saw the oily sheen on the water and smelled the stink. They notified the state, which also became involved. The wife of the chair of our selectboard is in some sort of environmental monitoring/remediation related profession and advised the town on how to proceed with this. I sat through enough meetings on this that I think I can safely say that this was not just a figment of someone's imagination. If i recall correctly, the operator of the utility lines was "spanked" by the regulators for not immediately reporting the contamination.

Two articles on the problem with my friend's well:
Tainted Water Leads to Addison County Concern
Toxic Utility Pole Treatment Threatens State Drinking Water Supplies

(A little overly sensationalist headline on that last one)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

kwendt

Wow interesting reading, JohnMc. I would never have expected such an event, or chain of events. I do hope things were safely, and properly taken care of in the end.
87 acres abandoned northern Maine farm and forest to reclaim. 20 acres in fields, 55 acre woodlot: maple, spruce, cedar and mixed. Deer, bear, moose, fox, mink, snowshoe and lynx. So far: a 1950 Fergie TO-20, hand tools, and a forge. (And a husband!)

beenthere

And the articles further my suspicion that it is all posturing by the enviro's and the Enviro-engineering companies that have sprung up everywhere.

Penta just didn't do that leaching... but they went down the tubes based on the hype. IMO. 
We keep shooting ourselves in the foot with these hyped up fears, lose good products, and it all becomes very feared such as asbestos. IMO

And meanwhile, the real cause of the contaminated water in the wells goes undetected. It wasn't the utility poles, it was something else that should be located.

But we will carry on...
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

sandsawmill14

hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

John Mc

Beenthere, I have a great amount of respect for your opinions on a lot of subjects, but you are just wrong on this one. With all respect, you have never seen the site, are not familiar with the topography/hydrology of the area, and don't know know the various people, businesses and agencies involved in the investigation. I hope you'll pardon me if I stick with the diagnosis arrived at by the people on the ground here, rather than 750+ miles away. The initial reaction of most involved was the same as yours: it would be a stretch for that stuff to migrate more than 5 or 10 feet from the base of the pole. They were forced to re-evaluate when they saw the evidence in this case.

Just because the articles were not well written (small, local news outlets looking to sensationalize the issue) does not mean it was not real. This was not a case of a hysterical tree-hugging granola head, or someone just looking for a free well upgrade (though we do have our share of those types around here). We lived through it here, and a wide variety of very knowledgeable folks investigated and agreed on the source.

It probably never would have been a problem if the soil were not disturbed when they replaced the poles. The problem was first noticed shortly after the poles were replaced. The contamination was traced back to the site of the removed poles not far from their well. Same chemicals in their water as were in the soil at the site of the poles which were removed - all of which was consistent with the chemicals used in the pole preservation.

I'm not trying to tell anyone not to use old poles for their projects. I've used them myself in the past. I personally would think twice before I used them to build a raised bed garden or something, but they can be great in a lot of applications. The OP's retaining wall may be one of them. In this case, it wasn't the poles themselves which were the problem, it was the soil surrounding them, into which the preservative had leached over the years.

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

LeeB

What would the depth of the well have been? I can see a shallow well getting contaminated or perhaps even a slightly deeper well with poor surface construction. Oil in the water can also come from the ground itself. I used to occasionally get oil in my water in Texas in an uncased well that was 450 ft. No poles, pipelines, or oilwells anywhere near.

'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

John Mc

I don't know the well depth, but assume it was shallow, since it was a spring.  Most drilled wells around here are in the neighborhood of 500 ft, and would likely not have had a problem if they were in good condition. The homeowner's new drilled well has no sign of contamination.

I don't want to continue to hijack the OP's thread, so I'm done with this well issue for now.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

sandhills

I farm and deal with leaching issues a lot because most of what I farm is sand, John I have no problem believing that could get into a well, Lee I'd start pumping oil if I was you  :D.
Seriously though, we have neighbors that are BIG and have several hog units around us, to get this zoned they had to comply with several rules, one of witch was the manure had to be injected into the ground to reduce the smell.  The bunny huggers that don't live anywhere near my farm, and will never smell it don't realize this is SAND, why in all billy creation wouldn't they be allowed to apply it with center pivots (which are already there) when the crop is growing and really pulling for the nutrients?  Sure it smells bad for a few days but it gets used by the crop instead of me or whoever is down stream on the same aquifer, sorry rant over.

Larry

Having worked at the phone company for 25 years I have an intimate knowledge of poles.  During the first few years of my career I climbed, drilled, and cut them.  During the last part of my career I specified what species, size, treatment, and where to put them.

When the pole is treated the butt gets a lot of extra attention and sometimes the creosote, if that is what was specified will be a 1/4" thick on the base to prevent water intrusion.  Worked quite well.  Sometimes the butt also receives extra treatment for 6 to 10'.  Now if one buys a 35' pole and bucks it, only one piece will be protected on the butt.  The other pieces will not be protected at all in the core so they will rot almost as fast as a pole with no protection.  I learned this lesson first hand when I used them for fence corner posts.  Some were starting to fail after only ten years. 

Another factoid...most poles rot right at the ground line before any place else.  Osmose does pole inspections for a lot of utilities and one requirement is they drill the pole at the ground line to check for rot.

My choice, if I could find it would be black locust.

As far as the treatment harming ground water I'm no scientist so I don't have a fact backed opinion.  I do know some folks have an agenda and like nothing better than to jump on an issue to further there career/influence/pocket book.  Sure would make for a lot of jobs if one could force all of the railroads to rebuild the trestles that have treated poles in flowing streams.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

LeeB

If there is plenty of rock available, gabion baskets might be another choice. Especially for a steep slope. A gabion is a rock filled, square wire basket that are stacked like brick. Galvanized or plastic coated wire is used to prevent rust. Old chian link fence would work quite well for making the baskets. I've even seen 2x4 cattle fence used. Smaller mesh for smaller rocks and bigger mesh for bigger rocks. It actually has  a nice look to it. Labor intensive though. Will last a very long time and not likely to wash away if the river gets up.

'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

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