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homemade bandsaw mill, help

Started by gww, April 09, 2015, 05:02:13 PM

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gww

Ok
I am now so far behind the comments that my typing skill won't allow me to answer each comment made individually cause I would never get to bed. I am thankfull for them all and taking it all in.  I am going to look up some mills (again) for comparison.  Just to show how I think, I will explain a bit of my build prosess.  I built from left to right not knowing which way the motor turned till I got to it.  Like all things, I just felt lucky that it turned the way that worked best for how I had built it at the time.  I built the cutting rails without knowing which way the blade was going to turn or how the guides would affect it. Since I didn't know I just put squaring slots on both sides so it wouldn't matter.  I put points on my dogs on both sides so it wouldn't mater what I ended up with.  When I changed from the 22 inch tires to the 20.5 inch tire, I did it out of frusteration cause the mill was free till then.  The frusteration factor was stupid cause dad had two tires that where close to what I bought for free but I had forgot, didn't wan't to drive and be wrong and was close to being done, so I wasted money that I didn't have to for speed and being impatiant. 

I still felt lucky cause my cut size went up with the wider tensioning and my squaring slots worked.  Then I put some rickity old guides on that made me put even more new squaring slots on and I had to do that outside and couldn't use the other squared metal to place them and had to use a square and a level which I try to stay away from almost as hard as I do a measuring tape.

I have had some good and some bad and most bad is poor planning and most good is just luck.

I was really happy with the way the controls ended up but they are worthless if it doesn't cut.  Luckaly some of the stuff on the cutting deck is interchangable. 

I will have to look at the rest of it and think about it. 

My guides still need reinforced.  I am going to try to run them with pressure as everyone loves cooks roller guides but I am to cheap to buy them and am trying to come up with a compermize.

I hate the ideal of starting the motor out on the cutting deck cause I have been starting it almost every cut during the adjustment period.  My tensioner may be hard to move cause I don't want to ruin the last of the metal that fits inside of each other.  I am sure I will wake up and just start doing something that hits me when I take another look at it.  Maby I will just cut that other tiller wheel and make a pully for the tensioner wheel and leave everything like it is and drive the tension wheel.  I wonder just how much stress that would add to the tension setup?  It already flexes now.
Thanks for the help
gww

Hilltop366

As I look at it some more another option could be to flip the motor around and add a jack shaft to reverse the direction, then spin the whole saw around on the track so there is no need to move dogs and backstops.

Not sure what the best option would be, just chucking some ideas out there.

gww

Hilltop
Chuck all the ideals you can think of at me.  I never know what will click in my brain till it is there.  Ideals are great.
Thank you
gww

5quarter

Gww...First, welcome to the jungle. I admire your determination to make lumber. You've done a fantastic job so far. some others have mentioned that it makes no difference if your band pushes or pulls the blade in the cut. The reasoning is because since the blade is equally tensioned along its entire length, it does not care if its being pushed or pulled. sounds reasonable but its not true.
   Two reasons: the first is simply physics. at rest, the blade is indeed tensioned uniformly along its length. however, once it is brought up to speed, inertia causes the blade to momentarily lose tension at the top of the drive wheel (in the conventional configuration). This causes a minute wave in the band as it travels along the top to the driven wheel. Woodmizer and perhaps other builders put a dampening block inside the blade cover to help dampen the wave as it comes off the top of the drive wheel. In your setup, This phenomena is occurring just as the blade enters the wood; the one place where you need uniform tension.
   The second reason is resistance. When the blade is running with no load, the blade characteristics (speed, temp, vibration etc...) are static. but as the blade enters the wood it encounters resistance and blade characteristics become highly dynamic. It is the sawyers job to control the sawing conditions such that the blade runs as close to static as possible (ie, cool temp, constant band speed, uniform tension etc...). in your case, the blade is entering the wood at its momentary loss of tension. The resistance caused by sawing has the undesired affect of  heating the blade in the cut and causing more loss of tension. in your case, the more resistance in the cut, the greater the tendency to climb and dive in the cut. 
   The conventional set up is conventional because it puts the momentary loss of tension and the resulting wave in a place where it does not affect the cut.  Take the good advice already given and get your saw pulling through the cut. and as Ox said, the problems your seeing will largely go away.       
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

terrifictimbersllc

Welcome GWW and Ox. Very insightful and capable both of you.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

justallan1

I think the first thing to look at would be getting everything just as rigid as absolutely possible. You might look at adding another piece just like you have that you wheels attach to and is your band adjustment and possibly set it behind your up rights with plenty of cross pieces welded between the two. Twice the steel=4 times the strength ;D
I strongly feel if you have any flex in your wheel alignment and band tensioner that it would be very difficult to adjust it the same each time.
Short of doing that, you might try adding a "tang" gauge. (Basically an old needle stile torque wrench) In your 4th picture it shows 2 plates with 4 bolts that I'm guessing would be your wheel alignment. I'd take a ΒΌ"x 1' rod and weld one end onto the top of one of these plates with the other end going towards the center of the mill left un-attached. As you add tension the free end will move backward and let you know where you are at. Granted I know nothing about mills with tires, but I would think it would also help you out if your tires are warming up as the day warms up, changing your band tension.



 

limbwood

would it be possible to twist the belt?

Ox

Quote from: limbwood on April 10, 2015, 08:26:27 AM
would it be possible to twist the belt?
That is a perfect and elegant solution to changing blade direction.  If I remember right, gww mentioned that both sides of the track (clamps, dogs, backstops) are the same so it won't matter which way the blade is running in that aspect.  One would only have to slightly twist the engine slightly askew enough for the pulley to "push" the belt not to rub itself to death as it crosses past itself.  They used to cross, or "X" belts all the time in the old days.  Of course, the longer the belt the better but I think this idea would work with what gww has set up.  I wish I had thought of this but usually the simplest and easiest fixes escape me.  Well done, limbwood!  This is why I love this forum.  You get all of us together and there's nothing that can't be accomplished, I swear.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Joe Hillmann

I can say for sure that if your teeth are hitting the rubber on the tire it WILL take the set out.  On mine if I get the tracking too far back on the tires so it is riding on the teeth the set will be ruined before the first cut is finished.  I would worry more about that than powering the wrong wheel.

Ox

Quote from: Joe Hillmann on April 10, 2015, 11:53:31 AM
I can say for sure that if your teeth are hitting the rubber on the tire it WILL take the set out.  On mine if I get the tracking too far back on the tires so it is riding on the teeth the set will be ruined before the first cut is finished.  I would worry more about that than powering the wrong wheel.
Huh!  That's a first one for me.  It appears we have differing experiences with tires and blades.  It's never happened for me and it has happened for you.  Interesting thing to put away in the knowledge base.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Joe.  I find it interesting when something I think is always so, isn't!  I wonder if different tire compounds (hard or soft) has something to do with it.  Maybe the ply rating on the tires as well...?
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Joe Hillmann

Quote from: Ox on April 10, 2015, 01:17:03 PM
Quote from: Joe Hillmann on April 10, 2015, 11:53:31 AM
I can say for sure that if your teeth are hitting the rubber on the tire it WILL take the set out.  On mine if I get the tracking too far back on the tires so it is riding on the teeth the set will be ruined before the first cut is finished.  I would worry more about that than powering the wrong wheel.
Huh!  That's a first one for me.  It appears we have differing experiences with tires and blades.  It's never happened for me and it has happened for you.  Interesting thing to put away in the knowledge base.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Joe.  I find it interesting when something I think is always so, isn't!  I wonder if different tire compounds (hard or soft) has something to do with it.  Maybe the ply rating on the tires as well...?

I would guess that it depends on just how hard the tires are pushing on the teeth.  If they are just touching it probably won't hurt them much.  But if there is a lot of tension pulling the teeth into the tire then it will bend them.

Joe Hillmann

Can you put up a picture/pictures of where the blade touches the tire from the front so we can see if there is a gap or not?

fishpharmer

Quote from: Joe Hillmann on April 10, 2015, 11:53:31 AM
I can say for sure that if your teeth are hitting the rubber on the tire it WILL take the set out.  On mine if I get the tracking too far back on the tires so it is riding on the teeth the set will be ruined before the first cut is finished.  I would worry more about that than powering the wrong wheel.

Rubber tires can and have on my homemade mill pushed out the set of the band blade on the tire side.  The blade then dives because the top set is no longer present to counter the set of (on the mill) downward directed set teeth.  Good point Joe Hillman. 

This too can be remedied.
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

gww

Ok I am back and have read the comments.  It is too late to twist the belt.  I took a longer rout. 

I got up at 5 this morning and ground the wheels lose and switched them and everything else that went with it.  had to grind lose one side twice due to messuring a bit aggressivly to take out any slack.   

I thought it might be an oppertunity to beef up the tension side by making the offset bigger on the drive wheel side.  I still had quite a bit of flex when putting under tension.  I did get it good enough to losesen and retention and hold tracking.  I did note all the comments on tensioning.   I did get it tighter then I have ever had it but did not cup the tires..

I don't trust the new drive belt set up  and think I might get slippage but I am going to try it before I break down and buy a proper lenght belt.  I have the same issue of not quite being able to perfectly center the band on the drive wheel.  I think it might be good enough and believe I am going to go ahead and put more weld on it then the bit of tack welding I tried it out with.

You see that little bitty board that was left on the cutting rail.  I fliped it and took another inch of it.  I then set up one of the boards and took 2 inches off it.  I know it is not much of a test but it did cut strait with no waver.

My little bitty cuts did bring a question to mind.  It seemed as the board was cupped long ways.  It is not out of the question that my track could have a long bowing drop in the center as I just used a 2 foot level to set it and have not made it very solid yet.

The question I have is;  Could the tree have enough tension in it that the board is cupping due to stress or is it definatly track?

The saw just scraped the board when I drug it back over the tiny part of the log.  I did not try to fine tune the blade guides and just cut.  The blade used to drop below the cut before. 

Over all I think I am on a better path then I was.  If I can get it to run I don't know how much beefing up I will do as I won't cut too much wood.  I will probly work on multiple things if one thing breaks.  I need to cut another log and see what I have but am pooped today.

Pictures?  That sucky camera that I use won't even work on new batteries unless I put them in a charger for 20 min first.  I will see what I can do.

Thanks for the help, more comments?
gww

gww

pictures


  

  

  

 

The pully could use more surface area and is in an unsafe place for hand placement.  If it works it needs a gaurd more then the tires do.

Thanks
gww

ps sorry joe, you said pictures from the front of the tire,  that didn't register.

Magicman

It's good to hear that you are now on the right track with your sawmill.  You have already recovered your first year's subscription here on the FF.   ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

tmarch

Looking at the pictures it appears that you need to adjust the far tire so the band rides the side of it facing the teeth otherwise the crown of the tire will take the set out as mentioned before.  GOOD LUCK
Retired to the ranch, saw, and sell solar pumps.

gww

tm
I find it hard to adjust the band.  I used a stick to check alighment prior to putting tension on.  I then put tension on and adjust from there.  I have only gotten close once to where you could turn the wheel both directions and the band tracked well.  When I moved the wheels I fixed a small set back of the drive (fixed position) wheel.  when I tension it tracks like it did before moving them.

I only have tach welds holding the fixed position wheel right now and could grind an move for the fourth time.  When it was on the otherside I had one large bolt running through it so I could break the welds and swivil the wheel.  Since I moved it I did not replace the bolt and have to use my minimal wood clamps.

I think I am going to try it for a bit and see if it is good enough.  I could shave the tire a tiny bit.

With the 4 bolt tracking set up, it is hard to get it perfect.  I also was working in the yard and did not measure like I did when I built it in the garage.  I may have other issues like, will it be cutting 1 inch on both sides of the board.  I am hoping the parts I did not move are good enough guides that it is still on.

I need to cut a log to see where I am.  You are correct though.  I couldn't tell which tire you were talking about but am assuming it is the tension tire with the blade to far back and the drive with the band a bit forward.    All the instuctions I could find said you wanted to run on the crest, I can't seem to get both to do so perfectly and have had it apart a few times.

I did think the tips of the blade were in the air but in places it was just the tips.

Thanks
gww

gww

Magicman
I will tell you when I put a log on it, however, it did cut better on the small board and I have high hopes.  I think it was helpful joining the forum rather then just searching old post and trolling.

I put it off for some time but really needed the help and am thankful for what I recieved.
Thanks
gww

Joe Hillmann

What are the diameters of the pulley on the tire and the pulley on the engine?

gww

Joe

I think like 3.5 engine and 7 on tire.  I didn't mesure exactly but figured a 2 to one ratio and believe that to be close.
gww

Ox

Good job, gww.  Now you have something to work with.  It's all mostly fiddling around and tweaking and adjusting from here till it's just right and then you're golden.  Good news for today!  A stiff frame/head/carriage is pretty important so hopefully you'll find some more material from salvaging and scavenging and add it on as you go.  I try to always make triangles if possible when building crucial parts - it's one of the strongest and simplest shapes.  Boxes or rectangles are just as good but use a little more material.  Just be careful about butt or T welding something and have it hanging way out there and putting loads on it.  Steel stretches and flexes more than you think!  It always amazes me how much something will move with just a little heat in the wrong place.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

gww

Ox
Thanks for the help.  The carrage assembly is pretty rickoty and it does "walk" a bit while pushing down the track.  The head assembly is pretty decent untill you get to the tension slide bar.  The drive bar might be flexing to but mostly the tension portion.  I haven't quite got it in my head on how to beef that up.  I added a few shims and braces today but don't see much of a differrance.    I figured I built the wheel part as short as possible and that would help but it still makes the tire go out of line more the tighter I tention it. 

I have more 2x2 metal to work with but not a tramendous amount.  I thought about framing the carrage but had some binding going up and down and was afraid to make it too solid.  I read on a differrent build where the motor waight being to one side coult be causing that and I might be safe in beefing the carrige up.

On the welding, I have seen people use wet rags to isolate their weld.  Myself, I caught one of my lift pullies on fire twice while welding.  I have heard some good pops which was probly another weld breaking some where.  Used to have the same problims with soldering on plumbing.  It is amazing my stuff has held as well as it has.  I have built a couple wind turbines and I can't believe they are still holding up.  Hope I didn't just jinx myself.

I have very poor work habits and am self taught and lazy enough that when something has worked I don't improve past that point.

I am learning a bit more thanks to guys like you that offer up help once in a while.

I muddle through and hopefully get something that works to my level of comfort. 

I don't even need perfect boards (though the better is better.)  This all started cause I am retired and am finding things that interest me that I can do on a limmited income.  I built some bee hives with all my boards from other projects and what I could find at dads.  I was on a bee forum and someone posted their Christmas gift and it was a sawmill.  I was frustrated that I was having a hard time finding scrap to build a bit more and the sawmill looked like something I could do cheaply and now here we are. 

If it is any consulation, the bee hive took about 3 times as long to build as I thought they would also.  I think I mentioned earlier that I always over estimate my skill level.

I think I am close and now I need to cut another log to see where to go next.

I hope the next one doesn't all end up as firewood like the last one.

I do see a differrance in even the little bit I did today and am thankful for the help to get that.
Thanks
gww

Ox

I'm glad if anything that comes out of my head might help someone.  You're very welcome if you were able to find any of my jibberish useful.  If you have enough steel, making a 4 post carriage will eliminate any walking.  It doesn't have to be as high as your main lift posts, just high enough to clear your slides at the highest you'll need to cut at.  Come straight off to the back (or front) of the carriage and then straight down to your legs making a rectangle or square.  Then run a piece crossways at the top between your two new posts, at the corners, and it'll be stiff and rugged.  Look at a Linn Lumber mill for examples.  I think there's a picture of one farther up in this topic.  As for tensioning the blade and flexing problems with it - I'm not sure what's flexing but if you could run a piece across directly on the other side of your upright sliders it'll box that whole assembly together where you'll have compression and tension working with each other.  Compression on your tire side and tension on the other side.  It'll stiffen up nicely.  It doesn't even have to be square tube.  Flat bar or angle or channel, anything.  It'll be in tension on the back side.  Heck, a piece of rebar long enough would probably make a difference.  Except I'd weld 2 or more together...  Best thing is if you're happy with what you're getting out of your mill, that's great!  It's yours and nobody did it but you.  It's a beautiful thing.  I've done many projects like that, making something out of nothing and been laughed at for it, being called a cobber and doing things half-hiney.  But then I remind myself that these laughers are probably going home and doing nothing and making nothing.  Hypocrisy is a pet peeve of mine.  I'm glad you made what you did with what you had.  It's American ingenuity.  Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without - good creed to base your life upon!
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

gww

ox
Thanks for the incouragement.  Thanks for the suggestions.  I really enjoyed the thinking in trying to do this (but would still like to get some good boards).  I am glad you joined the forum when you did.  I am pretty much a hermit and don't worry to much about what people think of me but always find it nice when I get help with my  missadventures.  My moto is to do what I want and how I want as long as I cause no harm to others. 

I have a feeling that other things are about to get in the way of this project and this small burst of energy and pure consintration on this project is going to be interupted.  Mushroom season, new grand baby, grass cutting and gardening.  I will be trying to work some of your suggestions on strength into the mill but at a probibly slower pase and so my post on updates may slow down some.  I do think you guys that have helped deserve to see the outcome of your help, I just don't know what the timeline for that will be.

I am sure I will also need more advice as I am out of my depth in experiance.

Thanks for the help.
gww

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