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homemade bandsaw mill, help

Started by gww, April 09, 2015, 05:02:13 PM

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Joe Hillmann

Is it possible your blade lube set up is hitting your teeth when the  blade is pushed up and back into the blade guides?  When I first put my blade guides on I had that problem.

gww

Josh
From your picture, joe might be onto something.  Expesially if it got worse after adding the lube.
Cheers
gww

JRWoodchuck

I welded a 1/2" socket to my threaded tensioning rod and can hook up a torque wrench to it so I can see exactly where I am at tension wise. You should be able to pick up a torque wrench at pawn shop for pretty reasonable.
Home built bandsaw mill still trying find the owners manual!

mazdathumps

Guys I am grateful for the responses but this thing has got me bummed out AGAIN... I do plan to respond to everyone. I worked last night and slept today and work again tonight, so gonna try to get on here asap and do some talking. Just didn't want everyone thinking I was ignoring them. Haha
Thanks, Josh

gww

Josh
I don't need a responce and also don't want to over load you with too much static that might not help.  I cut yesterday on a big old white oak and I am getting a little wave myself at the knots.  The same thing that would help your mill would help mine.  My problim is that I done have the logs and it is mostly good enough and sometimes even perfect.  I like the clear wood best :).  If I had to pay for logs I would try harder. I do know the type of stuff you show usually won't show when building sheds and stuff.  On the other hand, I have got the little hump in the middle before and am not getting it now but don't really know which change fixed it.  I just have a floting head on two poles and so you would think I would get more then a four post mill like yours.  I did get some wave yesterday at knotts.  Since all I did was make a cant and didn't cut more, I don't know if the whole log will be like that or if I slow down a bit it will flatten out. 

I just throw things out that I hope help more then hurt.  I also have never seen a saw except mine actually cut wood (except circle saws when young)  and so all my advice is based on what seems right on my saw.

Good luck
gww

mazdathumps

Alright guys, I'm back to normal over here... Truck out of the shop and maybe I'll get some sleep tonight or tomorrow... haha

Anyways, my post with my rollercoaster saga was a rushed post and I may have forgotten some details, so I'll lay out a few more details about my cut that day...

- I used a barely used and a new blade that day with the same results on each
- I was cutting about a 9 month old water oak that had dried some (water oak is hard to begin with) with a 10 degree hook angle - maybe too much for that hard wood per Timberwolfs website
- I dropped my engine RPMs down about half and it cut about 50% cleaner, but still rose in the first 12 inches or so and dropped off at the end of the cut
- Pine was cutting fairly well with maybe a 1/16" gap under a 3ft straight edge near my knots (livable amount for me) with the same setup

As for RPM drop and cut, it cut better, but still didn't fix the issue completely...

As for wheel alignments - they are pretty close, but don't the blade guides correct the slight indifferences between the 2 wheels?  And why one wood and not the other?

I've got 5/8" coupler nuts on each end of my alignment/tension rods I could use a torque wrench on, but I think the tension from pushing against the frame would make my readings higher than what's actually on the blade.

As for the blade lube fabric, I feel the fabric would just rip if the teeth hit it... Hey, at least my blade is clean right


Thanks for all the comments and concerns... I take note of everything ya'll mention... I'm kind of thinking the tooth angle may have a big part in this... Maybe I'll try a 8 or 7 degree blade and see - that seems the cheapest potential solution so far...

As for axle size and all, I'm working on some ideas to solve this... Just gotta make the time to sit down and be serious about it...

Sorry about the randomness of my post, I've had like 5 hours of sleep since 6am yesterday...  8)
Thanks, Josh

gww

Josh
One good thing about your post.  If the blade is rising then the tires are not taking set out of the blade because that would cause diving.

If it is just the rag hitting the blade, maby it would just rip but if it was the metal part hitting the blade it would take the set out and the blade would raise.

On the guides doing all the work, I only gave referance that cooks said if the guide where right then the wheel alignment was what is left.  I personally don't know.

As far as the two woods maby being differrent,  I doubt the hardness differrence is a problim unless it has a bunch of soft going to hard like knotts or rot creates, However, the stresses in each log can be very differrent and some logs just can not be cut good and smaller logs are the worst.

Every part of the guide system needs to be solid.

All said, I can not think of anything else that might help except flex in the mill changing some setting during the cut.

I still like any report you give cause we may all learn something here.

I do know you are busy and so no pressure.
Good luck
gww

mazdathumps

As for the lube system metal plate, it doesn't hit the blade and some things would have to fail drastically for the blade to touch it... I can squash that bug for us... haha
Thanks, Josh

Ox

Do a search for blade rising in cut or something like that, then see what they did to solve it.  You're not the only one.  If I remember correctly it's always a mill alignment or blade problem of some sort.
Something else I just thought of - are you slowly and gently easing your blade into the log or are you entering the log at regular milling speed?  You need to do the latter even though it seems like you can't or shouldn't.  The sooner you get your blade into the log and stabilized the better off you are.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

mazdathumps

Ox, I usually ease into the first few inches then gain steady speed. Maybe I'll try the latter and see what happens. As for right now, all I have for wood is this old water oak that is pretty dry. I'm trying to locate some fresh logs to determine the difference in cuts between the dry and green... I assume the dry is harder, requiring a less degree hook angle...

Hey, i've made it this far and it's holding together... My last two times cutting on it, I didn't break anything... haha
Thanks, Josh

Ox

For what it's worth, I've milled black locust that was seasoned for around 10 years.  Regarding seasoned black locust, the old timers used to say to put a rock on top of a black locust fence post and when the rock wears out, replace the post whether it needs it or not.  ;D  This stuff is one of the hardest ever known to mankind.  I was expecting sparks or something after reading others talking about it.  I was able to mill it perfectly, no waves, with 13hp and a Lenox 10° blade.  It was one of my first things to mill on the mill I built and have now so no experience with the machine. 
It might be your log.  It would be easy to try a different one.  But I REALLY think you have blade alignment issues.  If you want perfect results you need to have PERFECT ALIGNMENT.  :)
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

mazdathumps

Alignment between wheels? Or via blade guides?
Thanks, Josh

Ox

You can't rely on your guides to "make" the blade behave properly.  They're "guides".  They help guide the blade.  The real alignment is between your wheels.  If this isn't right the rest of the blade will be doing a little twist while being manipulated by the guides. 

One more quick thing:  Is the blade mounted the proper way?  It's an easy mistake to make.  A blade mounted the wrong way will still saw surprisingly well - saw it in a video.  Lots of powder for sawdust.

Aligning a mill is a huge pain but totally worth it in the end.  You can't do it when in a hurry or pissy or frustrated.

Do a search, you'll see what I mean.  I don't mean to be short with you, not my intention, but these problems have been covered extensively on the forum.  You might need to do some reading for a night or two now... :)
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

gww

I am with ox on one thing and maby all.  It is not the blade being a ten degree.  The blade angle may make you slow down a little and therefor not being able to use the blade to its max (smaller bites might dull it faster then need be).

I think it is the wheel alignment and to me this would be easy to fix with a shim under your pillow bearings untill you get the blade with out the guides on to be level to leaning forward no more then 1/8 inch but hopefully closer to 1/16 inch.

The other posibility is that there is enough flex that when you get in the log, the shaft allows the wheel to come off its normal plane due to the flex.  Slowing down durring the cut may midigate this a little but then the cut speed makes it to where your blade is not being use in the most efficient way.

One other possible way to make a small change on your blade alignment might be to change the profile of the tire by grinding with and angle grinder.  I just throw this out there as something in my mind that I might try if it was mine but not that it will work.  The reason I say that is because the blade tendency is going to be to try and ride on top of any hump and so wheel angle may win the day in the end.

I have cut everything I cut till this very last blade with 10 degree blades.  I also still have issues every once in a while, like on the very last log that I squared up and that is still on my mill and that I have been too lazy to finish.  It is not a clear wood log and has two areas with knots running through it.  I also have not made any effort in a while to recheck all my alighnments cause I am not getting anything bad enough that it won't clean up with a planer.

In the end, you have to take whatever advice you get and then make your own decision on what to tackle and also when you hit what is good enough for your needs.  I have never tried for perfection if I can stop short of it but still get what my needs require out of what I have.  I like perfection better but it is still a compermize on persueing it or using what you are getting because it is good enough and you are getting it. 

I am watching with what you come up with and hopeing the best for you and that you end up getting what you need from your mill.
Good luck
gww

Ps  When I alighn my guides, I start with just the wheels and measure from the blade to the log bunk.  I then lower my guides to bring the blade down 1/4 inch lower then they were with out the guide and do this on both guides.  Then I put the strait edge on my blade and level the blade with the guide.  This gives me my 1/4 inch down pressure of the guides on the blade.

mazdathumps

Thanks guys. As for research on alignment, I wasn't real sure what to be doing my research on, but it seems I should be most worried about wheel alignment.  A simple question while I'm here - are the wheels aligned 90 degrees to the log deck or 180 degrees wheel to wheel or both? Or do I just need to stick my nose in some info and make that decision myself? Lol
Thanks, Josh

gww

Josh
First I will tell you what I did and then I tell you what I think you should do.

What I did was take a long strait edge across both tires side ways and then made sure that the tires touched it everywhere left and right of both tires at the same time.  For the up and down, I used a level like you would if setting a pole in the ground on the front of the tire.

Now for what I think you should do.  Raise your guides and put a level on your blade by your tires just like you did on your guides and see what you get.  If it seems pretty level than put your strait edge on the blade right by the tire and then measure the ends of the strait edge to your deck just like you did on the guide.  Then add shims under your pillow blocks untill you are perfect on each side of the blade or according to cooks even better 1/16 of an inch shorter on the front then the back. 

I think that is what they are talking about and where you are with your mill being done and even better by the way you built it, it should be real easy to do.   I do not think the side to side is as important as the up and down is if your blade will track on the wheel and stay on.  I say that unless it is so bad that it goes to one side over to the other side on the ridge of the tire.  Mine does not ride in the exact portion of my tire all the way on a 360 degree turn.

If you turn your tire and are staying in the 1/16 to 1/8 to level on your blade, I believe you will have done what you are trying to do. 

If this does not make sense, please tell me.
Good luck
gww

mazdathumps

I think I understand GWW. It's windy and has sprinkled off and on today, so I don't think I'll be out there today, and I have another busy weekend this weekend, but I'm sure I can squeeze some time in here and there and at minimum check to see where I stand currently on alignment. At least I'll know where I stand and that will determine where I need to go. Either way, I'll do what you've explained above. It sounds solid.

When I was dropping of my blades to be resharpened today with one of my local sawyers, I explained to him my situation and he says he supports checking alignment between the 2 wheels also.  He wasn't sure how that would work with pneumatic tires, but says it's a good place to show concern.
Thanks, Josh

mazdathumps

Just to throw a little more info out there... I had been wondering about my log bed being level and hone stay just assumed it would not have moved any since I built it. Well just for kicks and giggles, I pulled a string line on it to check for level from one end to another. My 2 center pieces were about 1/8th lower than the rest. One of which I use to set my blade guides on... I have spent the last hour shimming here and there to level this thing out.  Not sure if this helps the situation or not, but wanted to throw it in here. I can't hurt to be level.
Thanks, Josh

gww

Josh
My first log bunk seems to be bent a little lower them the rest.  I have not fixed it but do measure the cant every so often to see what I am getting and where.  If the log is short enough, I try not to use that bunk.

I do not know of the effect towards the problim you are having but would say that it being right is helpfull even if not the whole game.
Cheers
gww

Ps  I also find the cant will warp a little and so I keep some little thin 1/8 to 1/4 inch thick pieces of scrap by the mill to stick here or there based on what my cant measurement tells me that I need.

Cheers
gww

mazdathumps

Not getting away from the alignment issue, which will still be dealt with, but fixing the bunk and re-setting my guides and dropping my RPM to about 1/4 throttle and plunging into the cut at normal feed rate , I cut some pretty dang straight wood just now. No rise, no waves... maybe a fluke, maybe something to it...

I still have every intention of aligning my wheels too... It can only help to have everything correct.
Thanks, Josh

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: mazdathumps on March 23, 2017, 06:03:56 PM
Well just for kicks and giggles, I pulled a string line on it to check for level from one end to another. My 2 center pieces were about 1/8th lower than the rest.

Did you also pull a string on the track to make sure it hasn't settled as well?
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

gww

Josh
Every little bit helps, good for you.
gww

mazdathumps

Ljohnsaw... you know I didn't think of that, but the measurements from the blade to the log bed are the same all the way down now, so I would assume the rail is parallel to the bunk. I'll have to check it tomorrow tho, just to be sure.
Thanks, Josh

Ox

To hopefully answer a few of your questions as well:  the wheel to wheel parallel and straight or whatever doesn't matter.  It's only important what your blade is in comparison to the deck.
I guess I should have mentioned a straight, level and true deck.  This should be first and foremost at all times.  If your deck isn't straight neither is your lumber!
By your decreasing throttle you basically increased your feed rate.  The teeth are taking a bigger bite like they're supposed to and are designed for, thus helping stabilize the blade.
When searching the forum I would recommend "blade rising in cut" or "blade dropping at end of log" or something like that to see what others have done.
Maybe when this adventure of yours is resolved you could nicely ask a moderator to move your build and process over to your very own build thread for others in the future to follow and learn from.
I wish you luck and hope you continue to improve your mill until you're happy with it.  It doesn't matter if nobody else is happy with it - only what you think of it matters.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

mazdathumps

Thanks OX. I'm excited that it cut well, once... haha

I'll keep messing with it, next will be checking the wheel alignment and fixing any issues there.
Thanks, Josh

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