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Author Topic: homemade bandsaw mill, help  (Read 54260 times)

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Offline Ox

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2015, 10:48:42 pm »
Where are my manners?  Thank you very much for the welcome, men.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
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Offline Magicman

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2015, 10:49:06 pm »
Yup, when I mentioned band wheel above, I was thinking blade guides and had overlooked/forgotten that you were using tires.  I have no idea one way or the other.  Touching the blade guides still stands.  Do not let it happen.
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Offline Hilltop366

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2015, 10:59:43 pm »
Would it be possible to switch things around so the pulley (and other required parts) is on the other side instead of changing direction?

Offline Ox

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2015, 11:01:06 pm »
Absolutely to what MagicMan said.  Tire rubber and blade = fine but anything harder = well, not so fine.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
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Offline Ox

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2015, 11:03:11 pm »
Would it be possible to switch things around so the pulley (and other required parts) is on the other side instead of changing direction?
I think this is pretty much where it stands at the moment.  Switching blade direction would require re-building the whole track dog and backstop system.  I failed to see this in my earlier post. ::)
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Offline gww

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2015, 11:42:35 pm »
Ok
I am now so far behind the comments that my typing skill won't allow me to answer each comment made individually cause I would never get to bed. I am thankfull for them all and taking it all in.  I am going to look up some mills (again) for comparison.  Just to show how I think, I will explain a bit of my build prosess.  I built from left to right not knowing which way the motor turned till I got to it.  Like all things, I just felt lucky that it turned the way that worked best for how I had built it at the time.  I built the cutting rails without knowing which way the blade was going to turn or how the guides would affect it. Since I didn't know I just put squaring slots on both sides so it wouldn't matter.  I put points on my dogs on both sides so it wouldn't mater what I ended up with.  When I changed from the 22 inch tires to the 20.5 inch tire, I did it out of frusteration cause the mill was free till then.  The frusteration factor was stupid cause dad had two tires that where close to what I bought for free but I had forgot, didn't wan't to drive and be wrong and was close to being done, so I wasted money that I didn't have to for speed and being impatiant. 

I still felt lucky cause my cut size went up with the wider tensioning and my squaring slots worked.  Then I put some rickity old guides on that made me put even more new squaring slots on and I had to do that outside and couldn't use the other squared metal to place them and had to use a square and a level which I try to stay away from almost as hard as I do a measuring tape.

I have had some good and some bad and most bad is poor planning and most good is just luck.

I was really happy with the way the controls ended up but they are worthless if it doesn't cut.  Luckaly some of the stuff on the cutting deck is interchangable. 

I will have to look at the rest of it and think about it. 

My guides still need reinforced.  I am going to try to run them with pressure as everyone loves cooks roller guides but I am to cheap to buy them and am trying to come up with a compermize.

I hate the ideal of starting the motor out on the cutting deck cause I have been starting it almost every cut during the adjustment period.  My tensioner may be hard to move cause I don't want to ruin the last of the metal that fits inside of each other.  I am sure I will wake up and just start doing something that hits me when I take another look at it.  Maby I will just cut that other tiller wheel and make a pully for the tensioner wheel and leave everything like it is and drive the tension wheel.  I wonder just how much stress that would add to the tension setup?  It already flexes now.
Thanks for the help
gww

Offline Hilltop366

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2015, 11:48:33 pm »
As I look at it some more another option could be to flip the motor around and add a jack shaft to reverse the direction, then spin the whole saw around on the track so there is no need to move dogs and backstops.

Not sure what the best option would be, just chucking some ideas out there.

Offline gww

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2015, 12:04:33 am »
Hilltop
Chuck all the ideals you can think of at me.  I never know what will click in my brain till it is there.  Ideals are great.
Thank you
gww

Offline 5quarter

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2015, 12:58:09 am »
Gww...First, welcome to the jungle. I admire your determination to make lumber. You've done a fantastic job so far. some others have mentioned that it makes no difference if your band pushes or pulls the blade in the cut. The reasoning is because since the blade is equally tensioned along its entire length, it does not care if its being pushed or pulled. sounds reasonable but its not true.
   Two reasons: the first is simply physics. at rest, the blade is indeed tensioned uniformly along its length. however, once it is brought up to speed, inertia causes the blade to momentarily lose tension at the top of the drive wheel (in the conventional configuration). This causes a minute wave in the band as it travels along the top to the driven wheel. Woodmizer and perhaps other builders put a dampening block inside the blade cover to help dampen the wave as it comes off the top of the drive wheel. In your setup, This phenomena is occurring just as the blade enters the wood; the one place where you need uniform tension.
   The second reason is resistance. When the blade is running with no load, the blade characteristics (speed, temp, vibration etc...) are static. but as the blade enters the wood it encounters resistance and blade characteristics become highly dynamic. It is the sawyers job to control the sawing conditions such that the blade runs as close to static as possible (ie, cool temp, constant band speed, uniform tension etc...). in your case, the blade is entering the wood at its momentary loss of tension. The resistance caused by sawing has the undesired affect of  heating the blade in the cut and causing more loss of tension. in your case, the more resistance in the cut, the greater the tendency to climb and dive in the cut. 
   The conventional set up is conventional because it puts the momentary loss of tension and the resulting wave in a place where it does not affect the cut.  Take the good advice already given and get your saw pulling through the cut. and as Ox said, the problems your seeing will largely go away.       
What is this leisure time of which you speak?

Offline terrifictimbersllc

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2015, 05:53:16 am »
Welcome GWW and Ox. Very insightful and capable both of you.
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Offline justallan1

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2015, 07:52:14 am »
I think the first thing to look at would be getting everything just as rigid as absolutely possible. You might look at adding another piece just like you have that you wheels attach to and is your band adjustment and possibly set it behind your up rights with plenty of cross pieces welded between the two. Twice the steel=4 times the strength ;D
I strongly feel if you have any flex in your wheel alignment and band tensioner that it would be very difficult to adjust it the same each time.
Short of doing that, you might try adding a "tang" gauge. (Basically an old needle stile torque wrench) In your 4th picture it shows 2 plates with 4 bolts that I'm guessing would be your wheel alignment. I'd take a "x 1' rod and weld one end onto the top of one of these plates with the other end going towards the center of the mill left un-attached. As you add tension the free end will move backward and let you know where you are at. Granted I know nothing about mills with tires, but I would think it would also help you out if your tires are warming up as the day warms up, changing your band tension.

 

 

Offline limbwood

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2015, 08:26:27 am »
would it be possible to twist the belt?

Offline Ox

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2015, 11:06:00 am »
would it be possible to twist the belt?
That is a perfect and elegant solution to changing blade direction.  If I remember right, gww mentioned that both sides of the track (clamps, dogs, backstops) are the same so it won't matter which way the blade is running in that aspect.  One would only have to slightly twist the engine slightly askew enough for the pulley to "push" the belt not to rub itself to death as it crosses past itself.  They used to cross, or "X" belts all the time in the old days.  Of course, the longer the belt the better but I think this idea would work with what gww has set up.  I wish I had thought of this but usually the simplest and easiest fixes escape me.  Well done, limbwood!  This is why I love this forum.  You get all of us together and there's nothing that can't be accomplished, I swear.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
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1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Offline Joe Hillmann

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2015, 11:53:31 am »
I can say for sure that if your teeth are hitting the rubber on the tire it WILL take the set out.  On mine if I get the tracking too far back on the tires so it is riding on the teeth the set will be ruined before the first cut is finished.  I would worry more about that than powering the wrong wheel.

Offline Ox

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2015, 01:17:03 pm »
I can say for sure that if your teeth are hitting the rubber on the tire it WILL take the set out.  On mine if I get the tracking too far back on the tires so it is riding on the teeth the set will be ruined before the first cut is finished.  I would worry more about that than powering the wrong wheel.
Huh!  That's a first one for me.  It appears we have differing experiences with tires and blades.  It's never happened for me and it has happened for you.  Interesting thing to put away in the knowledge base.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Joe.  I find it interesting when something I think is always so, isn't!  I wonder if different tire compounds (hard or soft) has something to do with it.  Maybe the ply rating on the tires as well...?
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
1989 GMC 3500 4x4 diesel dump and plow truck, 1964 Oliver 1600 Industrial with Parsons loader and backhoe, 1986 Zetor 5211, Cat's Claw sharpener, single tooth setter, homemade Linn Lumber 1900 style mill, old tools

Offline Joe Hillmann

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2015, 01:24:30 pm »
I can say for sure that if your teeth are hitting the rubber on the tire it WILL take the set out.  On mine if I get the tracking too far back on the tires so it is riding on the teeth the set will be ruined before the first cut is finished.  I would worry more about that than powering the wrong wheel.
Huh!  That's a first one for me.  It appears we have differing experiences with tires and blades.  It's never happened for me and it has happened for you.  Interesting thing to put away in the knowledge base.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Joe.  I find it interesting when something I think is always so, isn't!  I wonder if different tire compounds (hard or soft) has something to do with it.  Maybe the ply rating on the tires as well...?

I would guess that it depends on just how hard the tires are pushing on the teeth.  If they are just touching it probably won't hurt them much.  But if there is a lot of tension pulling the teeth into the tire then it will bend them.

Offline Joe Hillmann

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2015, 01:25:28 pm »
Can you put up a picture/pictures of where the blade touches the tire from the front so we can see if there is a gap or not?

Offline fishpharmer

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2015, 01:35:52 pm »
I can say for sure that if your teeth are hitting the rubber on the tire it WILL take the set out.  On mine if I get the tracking too far back on the tires so it is riding on the teeth the set will be ruined before the first cut is finished.  I would worry more about that than powering the wrong wheel.

Rubber tires can and have on my homemade mill pushed out the set of the band blade on the tire side.  The blade then dives because the top set is no longer present to counter the set of (on the mill) downward directed set teeth.  Good point Joe Hillman. 

This too can be remedied.
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Offline gww

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2015, 05:54:50 pm »
Ok I am back and have read the comments.  It is too late to twist the belt.  I took a longer rout. 

I got up at 5 this morning and ground the wheels lose and switched them and everything else that went with it.  had to grind lose one side twice due to messuring a bit aggressivly to take out any slack.   

I thought it might be an oppertunity to beef up the tension side by making the offset bigger on the drive wheel side.  I still had quite a bit of flex when putting under tension.  I did get it good enough to losesen and retention and hold tracking.  I did note all the comments on tensioning.   I did get it tighter then I have ever had it but did not cup the tires..

I don't trust the new drive belt set up  and think I might get slippage but I am going to try it before I break down and buy a proper lenght belt.  I have the same issue of not quite being able to perfectly center the band on the drive wheel.  I think it might be good enough and believe I am going to go ahead and put more weld on it then the bit of tack welding I tried it out with.

You see that little bitty board that was left on the cutting rail.  I fliped it and took another inch of it.  I then set up one of the boards and took 2 inches off it.  I know it is not much of a test but it did cut strait with no waver.

My little bitty cuts did bring a question to mind.  It seemed as the board was cupped long ways.  It is not out of the question that my track could have a long bowing drop in the center as I just used a 2 foot level to set it and have not made it very solid yet.

The question I have is;  Could the tree have enough tension in it that the board is cupping due to stress or is it definatly track?

The saw just scraped the board when I drug it back over the tiny part of the log.  I did not try to fine tune the blade guides and just cut.  The blade used to drop below the cut before. 

Over all I think I am on a better path then I was.  If I can get it to run I don't know how much beefing up I will do as I won't cut too much wood.  I will probly work on multiple things if one thing breaks.  I need to cut another log and see what I have but am pooped today.

Pictures?  That sucky camera that I use won't even work on new batteries unless I put them in a charger for 20 min first.  I will see what I can do.

Thanks for the help, more comments?
gww

Offline gww

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Re: homemade bandsaw mill, help
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2015, 06:14:07 pm »
pictures
 

  

  

  

 

The pully could use more surface area and is in an unsafe place for hand placement.  If it works it needs a gaurd more then the tires do.

Thanks
gww

ps sorry joe, you said pictures from the front of the tire,  that didn't register.