Stihl 460 vs. 461

[weimedog]

What exactly did they change? Is this like the 372 to 372 xt or is the 461 a completely different design from the 460?

[Andyshine77]

The 461 has major component changes, the crankcase and top end are quite different, with delayed scavenging. The overall layout is pretty much the same as the 460.

Crankcase of a 461. 



    

[weimedog]

Thank you, how about the MS440 vs MS460?? Any cross over between the 441 and 461? From the dealers perspective, must be a PITA if all four of those saws have completely different components...

I really don't know the Stihl line at all. Have a few guys who have them, interested in knowing if things like clutch covers, filters etc cross between those 70cc class saws. Handle bars. Stuff where If I have a few I can respond better. Of course I would be better situated if they had 372's!

So far I've had to piece together a Crushed MS660 an MS460....

So I'm assuming the "1" versions (441,461,661)are now "Strato" saws? With completely different top ends and carbs than the versions they replace?

[JohnG28]

441, 661 are Mtronic, 461 is not. Pretty sure all are strato. 460, 440 non strato, normal setup.

[Andyshine77]

The 461 has delayed scavenging, it does not have strato ports, or any of the intake plumbing for strato ports. The crossover parts would be things like the clutch cover, some of the oil pumps are the same and air filters and so on.

The 440 and 460 have many interchangeable parts, with a little work you can fit a 460 top end on a 440, which some call hybrids.

The 441 is one of Stihl's more unique larger pro saws, which shares little to nothing in design with the 440,460, 461. It's a strato saw with Husky like air injection, the carb box is also similar to the setup Husky uses as well. Again some small parts interchange, but that is it with the 441. IMHO the 441 is a more of an R&D saw, it has some parts that just shouldn't be there, and have no real reason for existing. That said the 441 seem to be a pretty good saw, with a cluster ... of a design IMHO.

Here's a pic of the carb box area. The saw belongs to a local tree company, they don't take care of their equipment whatsoever.



        

       

[JohnG28]

Thank you for the clarification. Never had either one apart. 

[weimedog]

so the 440 and 460 are similar... but don't share cases and top end? But you can graft a 460 top end to a 440 saw much like you can drop a 372 on an older 365?

[Andyshine77]

Yes the 440 and 460 are similar. The cases are different and the cylinder bolt patters is slightly different, so you have to slot the 460 bolt holes a little to make the cylinder fit on a 440 case. You also have to grind on the outside of the transfer tunnels a bit to clear the case. Other than that the 460 cylinder fits perfectly, it's a very simple conversion.   

[joe_indi]

Ignition coils are different. MS460 has a two pole coil, the 461 has a 3 pole coil that has a speed limiter and ignition timing advance built in.
Carb jetting is slightly altered (I think)
Unlike other saws that use air through a separate butterfly for stratification  the 461 uses the exhaust gases for stratification.Which eliminates complicated carb linkages and stuff at the inlet side.

[weimedog]

So is it possible to build a MS461 back to a MS460? I guess another way to access that is what is common to both? And from the sound of this thread a MS441 is a poor investment as its a relative short timer in the product line and also hasn't really been built very long so OEM parts will be rare and expensive. And since there wasn't a long line of them the Aftermarket won't jump on board that series, much like the Husqvarna 575 and 576. The MS440 is another that seems begs the question.. "why" if a MS460/461 saw is been around for ever and will carry that 70-75cc torch into the future.

Is the 066/660/661 similar to the 046/460/461 line? Where they have been around forever and Stihl will continue that series into the foreseeable future?

[JohnG28]

The 440 traces back to the 044, which I believe was the saw that replaced the 038. They have an almost cult like following and are always sought after. The lineage through that line was close to 30 years of loyal followers. The 441 completely changed this, whole new design and completely different saw. The loyal followers did not take well to this which is probably why it was reintroduced a fee years back again, but is now gone from the lineup,  probably for good. The 441 cm is supposed to be a god saw though and if thst size saw keeps selling like the 372 for Husky I'd say it'll stay a while. 046/460 isn't quite as long but close and I'd imagine that line will continue a long time. It's a modest power increase and does get to the 80cc class, but barely. They did drop the 650 85cc saw some years back so probably plan to keep the 461 and next in that line going a while. The 066 seemed to be the one that the next 660 never seemed to live up to, but again a solid workhorse that holds down their 90cc line and it sounds like they did well with the 661. Good reviews coming out of them and I wouldn't mind one if the chance and need for me to drop over $1k on a saw were to arise, which it won't.  :D

[joe_indi]

So is it possible to build a MS461 back to a MS460?

Though both share a lot of common parts, they are different. And building a 460 out of a 461 is not possible, unless you want to replace the crankcase, the cylinder and the piston. The 046 was a souped up version of the 044, for which none of the other other brands could bring in an equivalent, and they still haven't.
The 461 has gone beyond the 460 by virtue of its exhaust stratification which results in nearly 20% fuel saving without sacrificing output.
Trying to make a 460 out of a 461 is something I had thought of for the past 3 years. Well, nothing is impossible, but the work involved does not justify it. The most formidable job is getting a 460 cylinder to fit on a 461 crankcase. There is a 1 -1.5" gap in the front. That alone has been the deterrent. If anyone could suggest a solution for that I am willing to try it. Because, 460s will not be around for very long and for people who are used to a 460, if they dont care for a downgraded 461, a 461 modded to a 460 is the only option.