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DRYING AMISH lumber 12x12 post. For our home pls help.

Started by casey, March 15, 2015, 08:20:40 PM

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casey


Hello new guy here, Iv got a project going on and iv placed an order with the amish for the posts and lumber I need. They saw pine at this mill and offered red pine. Without knowing any difference I agreed to it, so the order has been placed.

Now, I have found this place and have learned quite a bit about drying the lumber and also that the red pine is prone to twisting and warping. This freaks me out because I only ordered exactly enough for the project. Each piece has its purpose.

Here is my list:
post
12"x12" x 8 foot
4'x6' x 8 ft

Lumber
2x10 x 10ft
2x 10x 12
2x 10x 14
2x 10x 15

So I have a few questions to fill in the gaps and if you have any side advise for concerns Iv missed pls chime in.

So I know I need to stack it level and about a 4x4 stack I will be making sure the lumber is touching to cut down warp, and add lots of weight to the top. My stickers will be dry wood and cut to 1x1 and will be placed as close to the ends of lumber as possible, and I plan on sealing the ends.

My questions are:

Should I kirf the 12x12 post?
How much spacing for the stickers is recommeded 18" or 12" ?
And how long should it dry? I wanted to use it this summer ( august, september)
put it up and let it dry in place the rest of the way?

I was thinking after getting the stack the way I want it, if I somehow put a few ratchet straps on it and cinched it down real good ( but equally ) the lumber wouldnt be able to move. Am I wrong? Should I not do this or SHOULD I? Its kinda important to us that we minimize every loss as our budget is small.

This wood is our future home, I hope we can make it work. 

Thanks for your time I know its a lot all at once. Dont be afraid to spell it out like your talking to a moron lol

beenthere

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

You are not a moron.  We'll help you along.

When do you expect the wood to be delivered?

Strapping wood when it is still going to shrink doesn't do much.. the straps loosen quickly.

Will sort through this as the thread develops.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

OntarioAl

casey
Welcome to the forum.
Talk to the Amish and tell them what you are going to do with the pine and ask how they would stack for drying .
Al
Al Raman

customsawyer

The weight will do more good than the straps. The straps will have to be tightened on a regular basis. Not saying they won't work but will need to keep your eye on them. 
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

casey

Thanks for the fast replys,

I got the idea for the straps from a steel banded pallet.

tightening them constantly wouldnt be a major deal for me if it worked. I was thinking it would apply weight to the top and provide side pressure or "weight" on the side to control warp.

The lumber will be delivered by months end.

beenthere

casey
Think a little more on just how a strap might put that kind of pressure on top as well as pressure on the side.  Boards will shrink in width as well as in thickness as they dry. ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

casey

The lumber will be delivered by the end of the month they expect.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

Weight, like a lot of concrete, will be much more effective than straps.  Straps apply a lot of restraint in a specific location, but the wood has a huge amount of force when trying to warp.  Straps will not help twist and do little for cup or side bend.  Most warp, once dry, can be reduced by cutting a piece in half lengthwise.  In the old days, when using solid wood for beams, etc., we would order about 10% more long pieces.  Those that warped too much would be shortened and used for door and window headers, stairs, cripples, and other locations requiring short pieces.

Note that straps, along with a roof covering material to prevent rain wetting, will help warp on the top three layers of the pile, but do little for layers further down.

I suggest 18" spacing.   At 12", you will have the same total weight on the pile, but because there are more stickers, you will have 33% less weight per sticker and not have as good warp control.

Can you have the mill possibly cut to a bit larger rough size, or maybe even not edge to the precise width now, but do the edging after drying, so you can have a little warp, but still edge the oversized piece so you can get the width or thickness you need?

Note that faster drying means less warp.  So stack the wood in a windy location with good water drainage to you get as low Humidity as possible.

Do you need to worry about the building code enforcement people?  Oftentimes, the inspectors are more concerned about building code requirements for buildings that have human occupants than barns and storage facilities.  Code compliance can be important when selling too.  Code people can be very concerned about open spans, beam sizes, lumber quality related to strength, fastening, and so on.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

red oaks lumber

all though stickering and drying are important to achieving a good product. sawing them is equally important. talk with the sawyer and make sure your posts have the pith centered in the posts. also request your 2x material cut from large logs which lessens the change of having junveile wood.
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

casey

Hi guys,

Ok im tossing the strap idea.

And ill go with the 18" spacing on the stack. My stack will be placed in a field basically. Very open, sunny, windy area. I can create a roof offer top if needed. But the only water I will have to worry about coming into contact with the pile is Michigan rains.

As far as the code officials are concerned, I have their approval. We are building a "Cordwood Home" They are rare and not a lot of code officials are familiar with them so problems arise. However I was lucky enough to get a code guy that KNOWS what Im doing and is excited to be on board.  8)

Um basically the cordwood is strong enough to support the roof and EVERYTHING that needs supporting. however adding the post and beam frame into the design more code officials can understand those load values ect ect and can get on board. I started my design with the post and beam framing with a cordwood infill from the start. So I didnt get any flak from the get go, but im willing to bet I could have skipped this framing with my particular code man.

How high off the ground should the stack be? just up on concrete blocks?

Thanks for the help again.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

18" high.  But the 18" must be open so that the air underneath can escape.  Keep the surrounding area mowed.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

casey

ok thanks Gene. whats your opinion on kirfing the 12x12s for my situation. I wont mind the look of average checking but I need to control the twist if i can.


casey

does anyone have an opinion  on kerfing the 12x12 x8 post? they are red pine.

red oaks lumber

like i said in my earlier post, center the heart and sticker very well .you should be fine with out. i make a lot of big beams and timbers,i have never relief cut any  :)
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

beenthere

Quote from: casey on March 18, 2015, 12:59:11 PM
does anyone have an opinion  on kerfing the 12x12 x8 post? they are red pine.

My opinion is same as ROL. Nothing to accomplish, and if it is prone to twist... it will regardless of kerfing..  even if you kerf it all the way through from four faces, the remaining 6x6's will twist if there is spiral grain. All red pine does not have spiral grain.. so you have a chance there.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

casey

well i have no control on the centering the heart when its cut. But it looks like I know what I need to do now when it arrives. thanks for all the input.

JUST ONE MORE....
Should I roof over the stack?

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

The purpose of kerfing is to get the big crack on the face that you want. Red pine is indeed prone to checking in a large timber.  With a kerf on one face, the kerf will be where the piece shrinks and the crack opens up.

A roof to limit rain wetting( so use a good overhang) is a great practice indeed.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

LeeB

I don't believe the kerfing will help any with twist, only with the radial cracks as Gene has mentioned.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

red oaks lumber

you have control how its sawed...  ask the sawyer how he plans to saw the beams. if the plans don't include centering the heart. stress to him that it needs to happen,no excuses.if the sawyer is worth anything he already know proper procedure. :)
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

scsmith42

Quote from: red oaks lumber on March 18, 2015, 07:01:57 PM
you have control how its sawed...  ask the sawyer how he plans to saw the beams. if the plans don't include centering the heart. stress to him that it needs to happen,no excuses.if the sawyer is worth anything he already know proper procedure. :)

Casey, centering the pith is one of the most important things that a miller can do to ensure straight lumber.  You need to stress to the Amish that you need "heart centered" pith on BOTH ENDS of your beams, or you will reject them.

Personally I would not kerf the beams; it won't reduce any twist.

Definitely cover the stacks but leave the sides open.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

casey

Ok I finally made it back to the mill. It looks like they milled the 12x12s right. Cores or centered on both ends.

They said some of the smaller 2x10s were done but were waiting on the "right" logs for the longer ones.

They also said that the 4x6s are done but they had another mill cut them because...... ( heres where they had my back ) if they had cut them from there logs they would have been cut on the side which would have made them warp and he said I was sure you wanted it to be stright and centered. I said yes with a huge smile.

Thanks for the help everyone, it looks like its going smooth for now.

Magicman

Good stories have happy beginnings and endings.   :)

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buzywoodliff

I'm pretty interested in this story..... I'm thinking about a small shed using the cordwood idea.  My original thought was to build a traditional pole barn structure and use the cordwood between posts.  Gives it that look, but with a comfort level of a pole barn.

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