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white cedar fence posts/to peel or not to peel

Started by glassman_48, March 15, 2015, 02:52:13 PM

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glassman_48

Not sure if this is where to post this, but I just purchased about 50 whited cedar fence posts and  I am going to put in a small orchard.  I was planning on sealing the top and bottom of the poles after they dry.  I cut the tops at an angle so water would run off.  I was also planning on putting some gravel in the bottom of the hole for better drainage.  Would it be best to peel the poles or leave the bark on?  I would think peeling would speed up the drying process, but wasn't sure if the bark left on would trap moisture?   Any help/advice is appreciated.  Thank You

47sawdust

Depending on when they were cut they peel easier than a banana.They will also look nicer in your orchard if they are all peeled.I have a small utility shed that I built 40 years ago that sits on white cedar posts.No rot above grade or below but they are rotting right at ground level,same with my fence posts.A coating of some type might slow that down,I hate to say it but roofing tar might work.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

beenthere

47sawdust is right on..  the problem with decay will be at ground level... not the tops or the bottoms.

Over the years many, many tricks have been tried... not the least of which has consumed big bucks on research and experimentation from the utility industry. Wraps, treatments, plugs, injections, adinfinitum. Don't know that anything has been settled on that works.

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

thecfarm

My Father NEVER put a cedar post in without peeling it. BUT we could cut the cedar on our land and do the peeling right than. We would let them dry right where we peeled them and than hauled them out of the woods.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Magicman

Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

glassman_48

thanks fellas,
I was thinking about running a thin sheet of metal that I use for breaking metal around my window jobs a few inches under ground and a few inches above ground.  I was going to put 1/8 butyl tape around the metal top and bottom then caulk the top so water wont get in so easy.  I want my grand kids to help on the project some so hopefully it will be around for a few years.  Thanks again

Magicman

Usually you are not worried about the water that gets in.  It's the ability for the water to get out.  The top ~6" of soil is usually the killer, so utility companies here put a wrap of something like roofing felt around that portion of their poles.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

VTwoodworker

I built a white cedar rail fence about 15 years ago.  I did not peel it but I wish that I had.  The bark seems to be pretty rot resistant as well and still coming off and is a pita when weed trimming.

The life of your posts will depend on the amount  of heart wood.  If you are using round posts, no matter what you do the sap wood at ground level is good for 5 years but if you have posts with a good size heart they should be structurally sound for 25 years.  If you can find some nice slow growing cedar and cut the posts out of the lower portion of the tree they will last longer than cutting the posts out of the tops of larger faster growing trees.  My experience - your mileage may vary.

Wayne Symonds

Corley5

I've used peeled and unpeeled and see no difference in how long they last.  They'll all rot right at ground level.  I've put in several thousand white cedar posts for grape trellises the last five years and I just had 10 cords delivered a few days back for the 6th year.  I haven't peeled one before planting it.  After they've been in the ground a year or two the bark all but falls off and is rotted at ground level.  I throw it in the row middle and chop it up when I mow the grass.  The way I've got it figured if they last 15-20 years my sons can worry about replacing them.  Many years ago an MSU Extension agent came around and told my Grandfathers that they needed to cut the tops of the fence posts on an angle to shed water so they wouldn't rot off.  They both pointed out the fact they'd never had a post rot off above the ground.  I've seen attempts made at waterproofing with tar etc and that only serves to hold water in and the posts rot sooner.  Setting them in concrete has the same result.  Today's cedar won't last like the old growth cedar my ancestors used, some of which are still standing.  I've seen 4" cedar rot and break off in as little as four years.  You can try whatever you want to preserve them but it won't ward off the inevitable for very long and in my opinion not long enough to warrant the time and expense.  The best thing is to use the biggest posts possible or spend the $$$ on treated posts.  Neville's Supply in Clare has pretty decent prices on treated ones if you buy in bulk.  By the time you figure the dollars and effort spent trying to preserve a cedar the money spent on treated ones with a 30 year warranty really isn't so bad.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Corley5

Or make friends with a local lineman and use utility poles  ;)  I use them for end posts  :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

glassman_48

I have some nice 8 to 10 inch diameter posts for the corners and where I am going to put a gate.  Corley5 if your down this way my new woodlot is just west of the corner of m-72 and cty rd 571 (the one that comes out of Mancelona)  I have a green pole barn with white trim its about 500' west of cty rd. 571.

jaygtree

i had an 'old timer' friend in the state of virginia that had a farm and each year he'd paint his fence posts with drain oil. he said the posts won't rot if done yearly. probably not epa approved. jayg
i thought i was wrong once but i wasn't.   atv, log arch, chainsaw and ez boardwalk jr.

Corley5

Maybe the next time I get down there.  The key is being by myself so we can visit and not be hurried by my family who are in a hurry to get to T.C. ;D
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

glassman_48

jaygtree,
I had a few people mention that too, don't want to contaminate the soil, especially where I will be having an orchard and garden.  Don't know how much would leech into the soil, but getting a pretty good idea that hopefully the posts will last long enough for my orchard to get somewhat deer proofed :)  Corley5, I can be pretty entertaining to kids especially if I have a deck of cards with me ;D  I am getting equipment companies lined up to sell their equipment on my place too.  Getting kind of excited, I have a mudpit there right now, need a dozer to straighten things up.  Come down when you can or call my glass shop if your just passing through just want to say hi in person.  You have been a lot of help/info in here to me.   Thank You

Cedarman

About 3 years ago i shipped 900 ERC with only 1/2" of sapwood or less to a winery in So Mi.  they called back and wanted all I could get.  Problem is that most post have too much sapwood or to a 4" heart, takes a 6 or 7" post. Cost prohibitive to use that big of a post.  I can never accumulate 900 to get a load. 
But if you can get good mostly red ERC posts, they will be good for 40 or more years.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

OntarioAl

glassman_48
VTwoodworker's advice on cedar poles is bang on.
Exactly how high do you intend to build this fence as to keep the deer from feasting on your young fruit trees. A 4 ft fence will not even slow them down once they figure out that there is food inside of the enclosure.
My neighbour is a market gardener, she has had to put up an 8ft electric fence around her gardens.
Al
Al Raman

hacknchop

I have noticed that post that dont have grass growing at the base where the air and dirt meet do better and have been told that the dew  making for a every day wet then dry cycle helps to break down the woodfibers which then speeds up the decay.
Often wrong never indoubt

glassman_48

My posts are 10'6" tall, and I was planning on putting them in the ground 3'.  So 7' height to keep deer out.  I am also putting a garden in the front enclosed area, asparagus, raspberries, blueberries, etc.  My employee has 50,000 strawberry plants, so those wont be a problem ;D

whitepine2

Quote from: glassman_48 on March 16, 2015, 04:38:30 PM
My posts are 10'6" tall, and I was planning on putting them in the ground 3'.  So 7' height to keep deer out.  I am also putting a garden in the front enclosed area, asparagus, raspberries, blueberries, etc.  My employee has 50,000 strawberry plants, so those wont be a problem ;D
Deer will clear that 7' fence as if it wasn't even there.

Peter Drouin

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Just Me

 Glassman, I am over on the edge of the Pigeon River Forest and have a 6' cyclone fence around my garden, no problems. Them east coast deer must be jumpy.

glassman_48

cedarman,
this is white cedar if I remember correctly, my orchard is in the back of my 6 acres, there aren't any houses nearby at all.  I am trying to make that fence as high as possible within reason.  Is your 6' fenced in area near your house?  I have another friend who has 4 apple trees about 40' from his house between his circle driveway and no fence around it at all.  I thought sure the deer would wipe those trees out.   And he has deer all around the area, woods right up to his yard.  Wondering if a house being that close keeps them away. 

Cedarman

Several years ago, the state of Indiana bought a bunch of poles from us.  I cannot remember whether they were 10' or 12' poles.  I know I have sold a bunch of 10' poles for deer fence.  I think they only put them 2 1/2' into the ground.  There is a fellow in norther Ill looking to buy 130  5" small end by 10' for a deer fence.
I would think debarking a foot below to a foot or two above ground and using pea gravel around the post would be a good way to get extra years.  I would also keep grass and weeds away from the post to speed up drying when they do get wet.  This is just MHO.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

glassman_48

cedarman,
Thanks for more info on this, good idea about 2.5 feet in the ground too.  I used to carve duck decoys competitively, so I have 2 drawknives, my son and I decided to peel the first 4' of the base and we are going to gravel the bottom of the hole too.  My 9 year old grand daughter is going to seal the tops of the posts.  She has asked to help me so that's going to be her job.  Gotta try to find a good used 3 point post hole digger now.  My invite also goes to anybody on our forum here if your in my area, give me a call, my work number is on my profile.  Thank You

Corley5

  White cedar peels easy enough that draw knives add work.  If you're not peeling the whole post cut/scribe through the bark where you want to peel to and then use a screwdriver to get under the bark and pull up narrow strips which will pull off the post in long strips.  It's much easier than pulling on a draw knife.  I peeled many cords of white cedar fence posts this way in a former life when I worked at a place not too far from where Just Me lives  :)  Wear gloves or your fingers will not only be sticky but stained purple  ;D :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

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