Introduction...and a Red Pine Question

[Red Horse Farm]

Hi everyone, new to the forum with a opening discussion and bit of an introduction -

As a boatyard owner and tug captain, the timber harvesting and marketing industry is far from my area of expertise, however I do have a reasonable amount of chainsaw/felling/equipment experience over the years.  I am a private landowner in Dedham, ME with about 150 acres of mixed hardwood & pine on family land & not here to be the next professional logger or forester, just a new landowner looking to play an active role in sustainably managing my property for recreation, hunting, trails for my horse farm, etc.  I'm a young guy at 32 so the goal is to make a little money to cover expenses, learn a little along the way, manage my property for future generations and admittedly, justify my equipment addition. 

On one property, I have about 1.5 acres of red pasture pine that borders a horse barn and small paddock.  It's right on a town dirt road and the access couldn't be better.  I'm tempted to clear it, stump it out and expand the paddock area unless there is a compelling reason to thin and keep some of the trees.  The second part of the question is for any members in Maine or northern New England as to what kind of market there is for a small quantity like this. 

I think I have attached some pictures - not sure if they went through

Thanks for taking the time to read, looking forward to spending some time here

[Red Horse Farm]

Here we go, helps to search and watch the video!




  

  

 

[Southside]

Welcome to the Forum, I am pretty sure those are not very recent photos!!   :D  To answer your question on the pine, try calling RJ Lloyd - Distinctive Timber Building Kits.  At least last I knew he was still sawing red pine just a bit west of you, Carmel area, but well within trucking distance for you.

Others can chime in as to the forestry impact of thinning vs clearing it if you want to retain some shelter / shade for the critters.  I would do some research into your soil structure before you stump that ground, if you have a lot of rock it will be hard and expensive to get decent grass to grow there.

Years back we would clear off an area, or heavily thin it, cut the stumps right down to ground level, then run cattle through it hard for a year or two feeding hay on the ground, throw some seed down and sit back and watch the grass explode.  The stumps would rot out in place and fill themselves in within a few years. 

[Red Horse Farm]

Ha!  Definitely not recent pictures.  Not sure but we're at least over 120" so far with another 8-10 this weekend. 

Thanks for the tips and input!

[thecfarm]

Red Horse Farm,welcome to the forum. I can't take pictures like that with at least one rock in it.  ;D

[coxy]

welcome to the ff     sorry I cant help you but there will be a lot of others that will    good luck with your adventure 

[Red Horse Farm]

Thanks for the warm welcome guys!  No worries, looking forward to poking around here learning what I can

[BargeMonkey]

 Red pine is like corn, when its time it all goes. Unless you leave a dense clump it will get wind blown and be down anyway. That looks decent sized, its a regional thing as far as size but we try and ship the better stuff for poles when we get it.
Who do you work for ? Im a chief on a boat based out of NYC.

[Red Horse Farm]

Red pine is like corn, when its time it all goes. Unless you leave a dense clump it will get wind blown and be down anyway. That looks decent sized, its a regional thing as far as size but we try and ship the better stuff for poles when we get it.
Who do you work for ? Im a chief on a boat based out of NYC.

Thanks, yeah that seems to be the consensus I'm getting - take it all or risk loosing what's left anyway.  It's really not a big stand, but they are all about the same size as pictured.  If I had the time, I'd use it to build a camp but it's just not a practical idea for me at this point. 

I've been with Moran for 7 years, McAllister before that.  Ran tractor tugs in the harbor for a few years, now on a wire boat doing cement & container barges.  Who are you with? 

[Straightgrain]

Welcome from one newbie to another...good plan, the situation you described appears to be a dream vacation to people like myself.

Years back we would clear off an area, or heavily thin it, cut the stumps right down to ground level, then run cattle through it hard for a year or two feeding hay on the ground, throw some seed down and sit back and watch the grass explode.  The stumps would rot out in place and fill themselves in within a few years.

That's the same advice I got and took 9 years ago and it worked very well for me.

Pine certainly-does age all at once (so to speak). Consider deciduous trees where sunlight would be welcomed in the winter and shade would be welcomed in the Summer (less wind-downs too).

I went in with a fruit and nut orchard where the South winds in the winter pushes evergreens that threaten the house. 

Addendum: I don't know it there is such a thing as Timber Deferral (for taxes) in your area, but you may have to re-plant to keep a reduced taxation status and avoid very stiff penalties (lightly described).

[dsgsr]

Welcome to the Forum Red Horse Farm, this place is full of Knowledge. I agree with the others, takem all at once or they'll blow over.

David

[barbender]

Red pine is our most commonly thinned species. In dense plantings that haven't been thinned properly, they do tend to blow over after a thinning. Yours don't look that spindly, but, if it is a real small patch it might not stand up to the wind either. It's hard to tell from pictures.

[Red Horse Farm]

Ok, looks like I'll be taking them all!  Cant deny I'm looking forward to a little harvest like this and increasing my paddock area, either.  Guess I'll begin looking for a buyer so they don't go to waste

I'm assuming I've just about missed my window for cutting now that the sap is running (or soon to be running)?  Or does it not matter so much if they aren't saw logs (which I don't know yet)?  The access is great, but my road is now posted and there's still 4-5' of snow in the woods which is too much for my equipment.  Maybe I should do it before the snow next winter. 

Appreciate all the input! 

[sandhills]

Sorry I can't help with the questions but welcome to the forum, looks like you have a beautiful place there!

[beenthere]

Ok, looks like I'll be taking them all!  Cant deny I'm looking forward to a little harvest like this and increasing my paddock area, either.  Guess I'll begin looking for a buyer so they don't go to waste

I'm assuming I've just about missed my window for cutting now that the sap is running (or soon to be running)?  Or does it not matter so much if they aren't saw logs (which I don't know yet)?  The access is great, but my road is now posted and there's still 4-5' of snow in the woods which is too much for my equipment.  Maybe I should do it before the snow next winter. 

Appreciate all the input!

When you cut them does not matter. 
But not having a buyer and having them dead piled for a long time does have its downside.

You have time to plan it out, no rush unless you need the space right away, as I understand it.

[barbender]

It doesn't matter when you cut them for saw logs, but they can't be piled for long in anything but winter weather. Red pine will blue stain quickly, our local Potlatch stud mill doesn't accept stained pine. Most MN DNR summer pine sales stipulate a time frame in which the wood has to be hauled, because the pine beetles can multiply rapidly in the piled wood and come out in sufficient numbers to kill the remaining pine. Nothing good comes from having pine in a pile in warm weather.

[Red Horse Farm]

Gotcha, that definitely makes sense - I certainly wouldn't even begin a cut until I had a buyer lined up.  The staining was what I had heard before, good to know the particulars. 

Thanks again

[Clark]

I'm not sure if you were looking for advice or just trying to get affirmation that you should cut it all? It looks like you made up your mind pretty quickly about cutting it all because two other guys said they would.

As barbender mentioned, red pine is thinned around here. It has proven to be one of the better investments in forestry up here. Take the smallest stuff first, give the nicest trees room to grow and it will add girth quickly. If it is a small patch I wouldn't worry about it blowing over as most of the trees tend to grow up experiencing the wind. Take about 1/3 of the trees and you'll be on the path to growing trees that one day your grandkids will admire.

Clark

[Ron Scott]

 Ditto! We thin red pine regularly here also. Usually to 90-120 sq. ft. BA by row thinning usually every 3rd row and selectively harvesting between rows The remaining topwood is often chipped on the larger acreages.

[dsgsr]

I've never seen a big (above 12-14" DBH ) Red Pine in Maine. We grow and groom White Pine here.

David

[Magicman]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Red Horse Farm.   8)

[BEEMERS]

Welcome to the FF!! Ive seen redpine overly thinned and in two years they had to do a salvage cut to clear out what was lost to windthrow..and to get the rest because it was coming down as well...but mostly around here the redpine is thinned and rarely see any windthrow...Infact the plantation pine is planted to densely to allow for this thinning.
The difference I believe is not to over thin and to have someone who knows when to stop..or knows the formula.Ron Scott said 90-120 sq. ft. BA..maybe that's it.What does the BA stand for?
I wouldnt be afraid to thin..but scared  as heck to overthin and lose the rest,thats if keeping some mattered that much to me...and that's something only you can weigh out..how attached to this little stand are you? See what theyre worth to start with, that might influence your decision,especially if there is not much value.

[1270d]

BA- Basal Area

[BEEMERS]

so...90-120 sq. ft. Basal area....Im still lost.. :-[

[thecfarm]

I have some red pine growing on my land. I hope it don't spread too much. My land grew some mighty BIG white pine and more are coming.

[Red Horse Farm]

Lots of interesting input here - I think the verdict for me will come if and when I can find a buyer.  I'm not too attached to this stand as it's a nice piece of pasture/paddock land that would be great to reclaim.  That being said, if there was value in letting a few of the best trees mature a little more, I'd certainly be inclined to allow that to happen and simply fence the perimeter.  The topography is low & in between two small mountains so while I do get wind from a tunnel effect, the trees here are often spared the worst of it. 

Ideally I'd sell to someone like the timber frame builder mentioned earlier or a private mill and maybe they would come out and take a look themselves.  Its a small stand, but I think the trees are decent which is why I'm putting some thought into this at all.  I have a few calls & emails out, we'll see if anything comes of it.  I'm not in a rush, I've owned this particular house lot, barn and field area for 7 years and haven't done anything yet. 

Great input & I appreciate the discussion! 

[beenthere]

You may get your answer when you find a buyer. Like when I had a logger look at some walnut trees.. he said "these are right at the minimum size for value, and another 10 years they will have much more value". 
It may, or may not be very definitive, but finding out more on the value of their present size will be a leg up on your decision.

[WDH]

so...90-120 sq. ft. Basal area....Im still lost.. :-[

Basal area is a measure of tree density.  For example, if your average tree was 10" DBH, then each tree would have .55 square feet of basal area (formula is DBH squared x .005454).  So, if you wanted to leave 90 square feet of basal area, and the average basal area per tree was .55, the the total number of trees per acre would be 90 divided by .55 = 164 trees/acre. 

With an average of 10" DBH and a target of 120 square feet of basal area, the number of leave trees would be 218 trees/acre.  At 218 trees per acre, each tree would occupy 200 square feet of area (43560 sq ft per acre divided by 218 trees.  An acre is 208.71' on each side.  So the area of a square acre is 208.71 x 208.71 which equals 43560 square feet).  So the ideal spacing between trees would be about 14' between trees.

Here is one way to think about basal area.  Imagine that you go into a stand with 164 trees/acre.  On one acre you cut each tree at 4.5' from the ground (Diameter Breast High - DBH).  Then you remove each tree only leaving the 4.5' stump.  Now you have 164 stumps on the acre each 4.5' tall.  Then you go to each stump and measure the diameter at the top of the stump.  Then you square that diameter and multiply times .005454.  This gives you the area of the circle at the top of each of the stumps.  Add up all 164 measurements and you have basal area per ace.

In practice, you can use a diameter tape to measure the diameter of the trees, so you can easily calculate the basal area of the stand before thinning, and use these measurements to understand the size of the trees, and then be able to formulate a thinning plan so that you know how many trees to leave per acre to reach a target post-thin basal area.

[Corley5]

Red pine lumber from smaller trees can be very unruly.  It'll twist and warp pretty bad as it dries.  Lumber from larger trees is much more stable.

[Red Horse Farm]

so...90-120 sq. ft. Basal area....Im still lost.. :-[

Basal area is a measure of tree density.  For example, if your average tree was 10" DBH, then each tree would have .55 square feet of basal area (formula is DBH squared x .005454).  So, if you wanted to leave 90 square feet of basal area, and the average basal area per tree was .55, the the total number of trees per acre would be 90 divided by .55 = 164 trees/acre. 

With an average of 10" DBH and a target of 120 square feet of basal area, the number of leave trees would be 218 trees/acre.  At 218 trees per acre, each tree would occupy 200 square feet of area (43560 sq ft per acre divided by 218 trees.  An acre is 208.71' on each side.  So the area of a square acre is 208.71 x 208.71 which equals 43560 square feet).  So the ideal spacing between trees would be about 14' between trees.

Here is one way to think about basal area.  Imagine that you go into a stand with 164 trees/acre.  On one acre you cut each tree at 4.5' from the ground (Diameter Breast High - DBH).  Then you remove each tree only leaving the 4.5' stump.  Now you have 164 stumps on the acre each 4.5' tall.  Then you go to each stump and measure the diameter at the top of the stump.  Then you square that diameter and multiply times .005454.  This gives you the area of the circle at the top of each of the stumps.  Add up all 164 measurements and you have basal area per ace.

In practice, you can use a diameter tape to measure the diameter of the trees, so you can easily calculate the basal area of the stand before thinning, and use these measurements to understand the size of the trees, and then be able to formulate a thinning plan so that you know how many trees to leave per acre to reach a target post-thin basal area.

This is a great explanation - I was wanting to know myself

[Red Horse Farm]

Red pine lumber from smaller trees can be very unruly.  It'll twist and warp pretty bad as it dries.  Lumber from larger trees is much more stable.

I read this somewhere else as well, not sure what constitutes a smaller tree in reality - think I'll do some measuring next time I'm over there with snowshoes  smiley_dizzy

You may get your answer when you find a buyer. Like when I had a logger look at some walnut trees.. he said "these are right at the minimum size for value, and another 10 years they will have much more value". 
It may, or may not be very definitive, but finding out more on the value of their present size will be a leg up on your decision.

This is exactly what I'm hoping for

[Southside]

so...90-120 sq. ft. Basal area....Im still lost.. :-[

Basal area is a measure of tree density.  For example, if your average tree was 10" DBH, then each tree would have .55 square feet of basal area (formula is DBH squared x .005454).  So, if you wanted to leave 90 square feet of basal area, and the average basal area per tree was .55, the the total number of trees per acre would be 90 divided by .55 = 164 trees/acre. 

With an average of 10" DBH and a target of 120 square feet of basal area, the number of leave trees would be 218 trees/acre.  At 218 trees per acre, each tree would occupy 200 square feet of area (43560 sq ft per acre divided by 218 trees.  An acre is 208.71' on each side.  So the area of a square acre is 208.71 x 208.71 which equals 43560 square feet).  So the ideal spacing between trees would be about 14' between trees.

Here is one way to think about basal area.  Imagine that you go into a stand with 164 trees/acre.  On one acre you cut each tree at 4.5' from the ground (Diameter Breast High - DBH).  Then you remove each tree only leaving the 4.5' stump.  Now you have 164 stumps on the acre each 4.5' tall.  Then you go to each stump and measure the diameter at the top of the stump.  Then you square that diameter and multiply times .005454.  This gives you the area of the circle at the top of each of the stumps.  Add up all 164 measurements and you have basal area per ace.

In practice, you can use a diameter tape to measure the diameter of the trees, so you can easily calculate the basal area of the stand before thinning, and use these measurements to understand the size of the trees, and then be able to formulate a thinning plan so that you know how many trees to leave per acre to reach a target post-thin basal area.

Thanks Danny, that is a great explanation, one even I can understand,  and I did not have to get out a dictionary to translate!! :D

[Woodhauler]

I've never seen a big (above 12-14" DBH ) Red Pine in Maine. We grow and groom White Pine here.

David

Town of troy has acres of it that size and bigger!!

[Woodhauler]

Red pine lumber from smaller trees can be very unruly.  It'll twist and warp pretty bad as it dries.  Lumber from larger trees is much more stable.

I read this somewhere else as well, not sure what constitutes a smaller tree in reality - think I'll do some measuring next time I'm over there with snowshoes  smiley_dizzy

You may get your answer when you find a buyer. Like when I had a logger look at some walnut trees.. he said "these are right at the minimum size for value, and another 10 years they will have much more value". 
It may, or may not be very definitive, but finding out more on the value of their present size will be a leg up on your decision.

This is exactly what I'm hoping for

The red pine log market is good in the winter, they buy till around first of may. They take them down to 8-9 inches on the top end.

[Red Horse Farm]

Red pine lumber from smaller trees can be very unruly.  It'll twist and warp pretty bad as it dries.  Lumber from larger trees is much more stable.

I read this somewhere else as well, not sure what constitutes a smaller tree in reality - think I'll do some measuring next time I'm over there with snowshoes  smiley_dizzy

You may get your answer when you find a buyer. Like when I had a logger look at some walnut trees.. he said "these are right at the minimum size for value, and another 10 years they will have much more value". 
It may, or may not be very definitive, but finding out more on the value of their present size will be a leg up on your decision.

This is exactly what I'm hoping for

The red pine log market is good in the winter, they buy till around first of may. They take them down to 8-9 inches on the top end.

Ok, this is good to know - so my issue is that I'm not a logger or forester and have no contacts or experience in the buying and selling of logs.  The rookie question of the day is:  is it possible for a landowner like myself to sell a few logs at a time, cutting & hauling them myself, etc?  I have heard and read about people doing this in other states, just unsure how to get started here in Maine.  Are log buyers here willing to deal with small time guys like myself?

Thanks for the help and keeping the discussion going - yet another new guy with lots of questions, but I appreciate everyone's patience

[beenthere]

Likely not, but scouting around your area may turn up some interested buyers.

Suggest finding someone cutting red pine and asking the logger or trucker. Calling a number on a truck if possible to ask about buyers. Not knowing the current pulpwood situation there, but is a possibility.

Also, contact your state Forestry dept. as well as the Extension service to ask about local log buyers and loggers.

Will likely be tough to sell a few logs as they are accumulated and less than a truck load.

But an ad in CL or looking around for someone with their own sawmill that might be looking for logs to saw would be a possible solution. Then again, can people build with ungraded structural red pine dimension lumber?  Maybe a pole treater in the area?

[Red Horse Farm]

Likely not, but scouting around your area may turn up some interested buyers.

Suggest finding someone cutting red pine and asking the logger or trucker. Calling a number on a truck if possible to ask about buyers. Not knowing the current pulpwood situation there, but is a possibility.

Also, contact your state Forestry dept. as well as the Extension service to ask about local log buyers and loggers.

Will likely be tough to sell a few logs as they are accumulated and less than a truck load.

But an ad in CL or looking around for someone with their own sawmill that might be looking for logs to saw would be a possible solution. Then again, can people build with ungraded structural red pine dimension lumber?  Maybe a pole treater in the area?

Ok, that's what I figured.  I'll try to do some digging on my own.  I also have an adjoining 120+/- acres that I just bought and will be working on a management plan for that in the coming months so that question was somewhat related to the future cutting I'll be doing as well.  Hopefully I'll get more answers once I get involved with a forester and make more of a plan, just trying to get some idea where to start. 

Working in the woods is therapy to me - like many here, I would imagine - its completely unrelated to any of my 'day' jobs.  I'm a hobby woodcutter with more than a hobby size amount of land so I'm just trying to get myself organized

Thanks again,

[Woodhauler]

If you follow the specs and don't try to put pulp into logs you can sell to any log mill or yard in the area. Cut them what they want and don't let them stain !

[Southside]

Yup - what Woodhauler said.  ED Bessy has a number of yards around central Maine and will buy from you, if you can't sell direct. 

[Red Horse Farm]

Was just going to ask about ED Bessey - they have a yard in Ellsworth which is 20 min from both of my properties.  I'll check them out for sure, that would certainly be convenient

[Woodhauler]

Was just going to ask about ED Bessey - they have a yard in Ellsworth which is 20 min from both of my properties.  I'll check them out for sure, that would certainly be convenient

Check out the log mill in ellsworth too. Crobb boxs old mill.

[thecfarm]

You will need a Intent to Havest Number. Or I did when I was cutting here about 15 years ago. I had to call Augusta for it. I needed it to sell logs and pulp to the mills. It's a very simple form to fill out. The state wants their cut too. The Number is not much,just have to pay the taxes on what was cut.We had a hard time with pulp. Was not getting alot,it would start to stain before we got a load. The logs was fine,we could get a load of logs quick,the pulp was the problem. Once the truck driver really had to do some talking for them to take our pulp. But the paper company could cut some and have it sit for 2 months and that is fine.

[Woodhauler]

You will need a Intent to Havest Number. Or I did when I was cutting here about 15 years ago. I had to call Augusta for it. I needed it to sell logs and pulp to the mills. It's a very simple form to fill out. The state wants their cut too. The Number is not much,just have to pay the taxes on what was cut.We had a hard time with pulp. Was not getting alot,it would start to stain before we got a load. The logs was fine,we could get a load of logs quick,the pulp was the problem. Once the truck driver really had to do some talking for them to take our pulp. But the paper company could cut some and have it sit for 2 months and that is fine.

I think he can still get away withoit harvest notice. I haul for several part time home owners that never had one.

[thecfarm]

Whatever he wants to do is fine by me. I just noticed he wants to cut some on that 120 acre lot too. I would think a person could get some wood cut off there too. I just like to do the correct way. I know about going under the radar. As long as no ones calls on ya,you're all set.  ;D

[Red Horse Farm]

That's good to know - I'll look into it to be sure.  The 120 acres I recently acquired was heavily cut 50-60 years ago and desperately needs to be thinned.  There are some nice trees in there and it's beautiful land with great access, but nothing has been done since the harvest in the 50s.  Once I get a management plan going I'll know what I'm doing with that.  I want to cut as much as possible myself, but may end up needing help to meet the goals overall...we'll see

Thanks again

[Red Horse Farm]

I'm assuming you guys are talking about a Forest Operations Notification?  Looks like if the landowner is harvesting no more than 2 acres in a 12 month period, no FON is needed.  For now, I won't worry about it. 

http://www.maine.gov/dacf/mfs/rules_regs/fons.html

[thecfarm]

I think that's the one.