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Anyone out there have any advice on start a logging business

Started by CJF1981, March 04, 2015, 05:45:17 PM

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CJF1981

I'm new to the forum.  I am looking on purchasing a Woodmizer sawmill in the near future and also have some land that I can pull timber from myself (75 acres).  I have some future plans that I would like to use the woodmizer for as far as lumber and timber beams and posts.  Is there a strong market out there to sell any lumber that I cut or would I be better to sell to a large mill at first on logs I am not going to use?  I think I was told around central PA that softwoods were $250 per thousand board feet and hardwoods were worth a little more.  I am hoping to learn as I go and getting involved with this can hopefully turn into a future business.  Any thoughts on where to start?  I'm not sure I wouldn't be better doing work where I cut and mill the lumber to build a project for a landowner. Check out my profile pics under "Barn" of some logs I cut several years ago for a barn project for myself.  I cut 7,000 board feet to be able to go completely around my 40' x 64' x 19' high barn.

Any advice or feedback would be appreciated.  Thanks.

WH_Conley

Milling lumber and using it to build for a customer is a value added route. Can't hardly go wrong there. It will make your timber last longer. You are not really clear how much experience you have sawing. If I were learning and know what I know now I would buy some low grade logs and cut my teeth on pallet stock and cross ties. You are not out the value of a grade log, even if it did come off your place it still has the value you could have sold it for. Some logs are worth more to sell than to saw unless you have a very good market. I have one customer that I cut for about one time a year. He has me saw veneer logs. He is a wood worker and has that special market that makes this profitable. Clear as mud?
Bill

thenorthman

As far as the milling part, no clue...

For the logging end, start with lots of money, no really I'm not kidding...

Then learn to really fall timber, not just put em on the ground but put em where you wan't/need them to go

Next learn to wrench on nearly anything, mechanics are stupid expensive...

Then see a shrink.
well that didn't work

so il logger


treeslayer2003


shortlogger

Try to get a job working with a logger before jumping into it . There is a lot to a well run logging business it sounds as simple as cutting and dragging trees but making that happen smoothly takes experience .
1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase . "NKJV"

mad murdock

Niche markets bring you more return for your effort.  When I logged full time(years ago), knowing your market was key and I am sure still is. You can keep busy turning dollars cutting pulp and saw bolts, firewood etc. With the addition of a sawmill, I would be searching out those smaller markets like custom slabs, highly figured wood, anything that will sell for more money.  It may take a little more time to cut high end product, but the pay is way better, and if you are cutting on your wood, it will last that much longer. We always mad a lot more money catering to the niche markets, things like log home builders providing them with house logs and even rail stock for their railings. We mad real good money cutting 2-4" white cedar and selling it in peeled form. 2-4 bucks a linear foot. This was back in the early 1990's. I am sure those type of markets are still out there.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

CJF1981

I am going to comment on my post and address some things you guys have mentioned already.  Thanks for the feedback and I'm always looking for more.  There are things I don't always think of or miss.  My comment below.

I feel like that would be the goal is to work towards a niche market.  Right now in central PA I see a lot of logging companies/outfits selling to a few large mills.  Most decent size logging companies are cutting large tracts of land privately owned or put up for bid by the State Forest or PA Game Commission (both large landowners and they have a forester provide an estimated volume and plan together for landings, etc.)  However, I do understand equipment is expensive and I have learned over the years to be somewhat self sufficient.  It seems any mechanic has ten things ahead of you and a lot of times you are better fixing yourself especially when you can't wait for something to be done.

As far the niche market, I don't see many offering to cut for home building projects.  Most are trying to serve a large client and stay busy all the time.  I would start small by investing in a mill, and tractor with a loader at first.  I have enough demand for boards, beams for my own projects to justify the cost of a small mill.  Niche markets as far as cutting thick wide slabs for bar and table tops, boards for people building sheds and outbuildings or improving their basement (instead of buying kiln dried boards at Lowes), etc.  I would be looking for a small setup and not large scale.  If it would entail hiring a few guys down the road, only better.  I would be testing the waters at first and not looking to sink, then invest in areas after I see there is a market and the demand is there for a product I can produce.  Most operations I have seen are usually a logging company making some profit selling to a mill which in turns is selling to a box store or large building supply which is in turn selling to the public.  3 separate areas of profit margin where I would be looking to produce on a lot smaller scale an end product that is affordable and provides some savings for my customers but also a little profit in there myself.

Southside

The key to just about any business, and especially in this realm, is to avoid debit at all costs.  I realize that seems easy to say, but it is so paramount to your success.  As a small guy your margin (profit) has the potential to be higher than the big operators, but your cash flow will be miniscule in comparison.  Having a payment staring you in the face every month will impact how you can operate.  When mother nature or the customers dictate that you can't work the payment is still due, fall behind on only a couple and it becomes nearly impossible to climb out of the hole. 

It can easily become a vicious cycle.  You want a bigger saw to cut bigger wood to make more money, but you find out your tractor won't pull it, so you buy a bigger skidder, well now you can't load that log so you need a bigger loader, then DOT informs you that your trailer is not big enough so you buy a bigger truck, well now the payments are so heavy that you need a harvester to keep the cash flow up, which means the skidder is once again too small, all the meanwhile you are fixing the equipment your employees broke because they don't have a dime in it - that would be the employees who actually bother to show up for work.  Oh and when you try to sell or trade that equipment it is worth about 10% of what you paid for it because it earned its keep and it shows.

Look around and see how many older loggers are out there, yes some love it and will never leave, but many are stuck where they are, essentially working for the bank, iron rich and cash poor.

Contrast that to the guy who finds every way to do it with cash no matter how small, its a lot better to have to turn work away because you just can't do it.  Your blood pressure will be a lot lower when rain falls on equipment you don't have a payment on. 

As far as employees - again, ask guys who did it alone or with at most one employee and now have full crews, many if not most will tell you they kept more money when they were small.  Personally I have done it both ways, yea there is a lot of work I can't compete on, but I never am looking around for work either now. 

Best of luck with your venture.
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

ilog4u2

 South side logger... Perfectly said.... and so true,   "It don't matter how much you make,it matters how much you keep". 

lopet

Quote from: ilog4u2 on March 05, 2015, 06:26:39 PM
South side logger... Perfectly said.... and so true,   "It don't matter how much you make,it matters how much you keep".

I learned most by just doing things and off coarse there were some mistakes involved, who cost me money. ;D
Unfortunately we are not perfect.
If you are mechanicly inclined, you can still do a lot of wrenching your self on older stuff , but not so on the computerized stuff.
Good luck.
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

tmarch

If I may suggest buying the tractor, manual mill and a chainsaw.  Cut a few trees, mill them into lumber and then decide if that's what will work.  Too many irons in the fire at first can lead to some decisions that will need to be made.  Taking wood from a tree to a finished building has a lot of steps and TIME invested.  Doesn't happen overnite.
Retired to the ranch, saw, and sell solar pumps.

shortlogger

A very good point was made earlier about debt if you want to do things at your own pace and your own way stay out of debt it enslaves you and will often force you to do things opposite of how you invisioned just to meet its demands . There is nothing worse than having to do something you don't really wanna do because your financial obligations have to be met .
1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase . "NKJV"

TnAndy

So two loggers are sitting around the coffee shop one morning watching it pour the rain.

"Abe.....what would you do if you won that big State lottery prize ?"

"Well, John.....Guess I'd probably keep right on logging until it was all gone".
Price, quality, service....
    Pick any two

mf40diesel

With regards to what Southside Logger stated.  While I am not a professional logger, which I often wish that I was (I go to sea for a living) in Maine where I live, there seem to be two main types of loggers, the big mechanical outfits, whether CTL, or Buncher/Grapple/crane/chipper, or jut the single cable skidder and one or maybe two guys.

While there isn't too many of the cable guys left in my area, they are out there for sure.  I have always speculated, that at the end of the day, they are probably making nearly as good a living with half the headache as the big mechanical guys with many times the payments.  The thirst for woodlots must be astounding too...keeping enough wood in front of those big outfits must be nearly a full time job in itself.

My dream, so somewhat similiar to the OP's... I would like to install a forestry package to my tractor, upgrade my winch, by a piece of land say 40-60 acres to harvest my own firewood off of, and selectively cut wood to sell, just to subsidize the cost of the land, tractor and my time.  Plus help me keep this belly of mine a little more in check.
John Deere 5055e, mfwd. Farmi JL306 Winch. Timberjack 225 Skidder. Splitfire splitter & Stihl saws.

longtime lurker

I see debt differently then most. I see there being two types of debt - owing money on things that pay for themselves, and owing money on things you pay for from somewhere else.

Owing money on a skidder, or truck, or harvester, or whatever else you borrow for is only a problem if it's not generating enough money to pay its way and then some. Too many people go into this business with big dreams and then eke out a living by just making it from one job to the next without ever getting anywhere, and a lot of the time it's the tired old gear that they own that stops them advancing. It's one thing to run with old gear, it's another to run with old gear that's forever breaking down or needing major repair. I've seen a lot of guys over the years who were scared of a repayment, yet spent the equivalent to a repayment per month on repairs and downtime if they ever stopped to figure in their own time as being worth a wage.

Be conservative in your planning by all means. Don't go wasting money, don't go buying toys, don't work on needing everything to go right every time to make it pay.
But don't go thinking your saving money by buying clapped out junk for cash either. Your cash is for buying logs and beer - use the banks cash for buying equipment.

Borrowing for equipment when you're a professional logger should be like borrowing for fertiliser when you're a farmer: do it right and it'll make you, do it wrong and it'll break you, or do it not at all and get nothing for it.

The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Southside

Longtime - I used to think like you do - before 2008.....
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

so il logger

Very true southside logger, I don't have fancy tractor's but they feed my family and pay my bill's. My newest is the 95 tj 450, pretty new to me. And I don't have payment's on them either. Just hafta work when a guy can and I see profit, I also run a lean crew and emphasize production. I have seen the big boy's new skidder's, but it seems at the end of the day my 12,000 bd ft and they're 15,000 ft aren't that far apart.... except I don't have the payment :) I plan to go somewhere as well, not just keep treading water... and it's working

ST Ranch

I have to agree with southside. When starting out and now in todays uncertain business climate, borrowing money is like playing a lottery - be prepared to loose it all if something uexpected occurs [which it always does].

I only borrow where the cost [of borrowing] is a tax write-off against profits/tax payable [capital gains etc] and or where my savings are earning more than the cost of borrowing.

I have borrowed for equipment and land over the years, but only because my wife had a good paying secure job that would cover the payments if I couldn't, or I had enough in my retirement savings to cover the debt, if an emergency arose and I chose to pay out the loan vs letting the bank reposess.

Also I have found the lack of stress and subsequent healtheir mind/body that I have without worring about monthly payments is impossible to place a value on.

The other thing to remeber is regardless of the type of business, make sure you start your OWN [retirement] savings plan the first day and for every month there-after, put a small amont away for yourself, before you pay any bills.

Many people think and are fooled by the idea that the land or the equipment or the "businees" we build will pay back in the future.  This may or may not happen, but money in a secure savings plan, I still believe is invaluable.

My 5 cents worth

Tom
LT40G28 with mods,  Komatsu D37E crawler,
873 Bobcat with CWS log grapple,

BEEMERS

Northman layed it out in a nutshell..southside put it in detail..St Ranch sumarised it nicely...Ive been in this same trap in the excavating businesss for a long time.I could elaborate,  but the people mentioned have said it so well..i don't think I could improve.

so il logger


SLawyer Dave

Quote from: thenorthman on March 04, 2015, 09:33:21 PM
As far as the milling part, no clue...

For the logging end, start with lots of money, no really I'm not kidding...

Then learn to really fall timber, not just put em on the ground but put em where you wan't/need them to go

Next learn to wrench on nearly anything, mechanics are stupid expensive...

Then see a shrink.

I read this thread just to find this type of reply.  I wasn't disappointed.   ;D

nk14zp

Best way to become a millionaire logging is to start with ten million.
Belsaw 36/18 duplex mill.
Belsaw 802 edger.
http://belsawsawmills.freeforums.org/

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