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Southern Pine inspection bureau lumber grading service

Started by ncsawyer, February 24, 2015, 08:18:05 PM

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ncsawyer

Here in NC, any non - agricultural structure requires a building permit.  Most general contractors I talk to will tell you that the building inspectors adhere to the UBC and will require graded and stamped lumber.  My question is about the Southern Pine Inspection Bureau.  Has anyone ever used them to grade lumber to be used in a building project?  How did the process work?  What did it cost? Are there other ways to have your lumber graded in NC if the building inspector requires it?
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drobertson

cant' help you on this but will say around here, thankfully we don't have that outside city limits, but will say, and do believe full hearted that the inspection process is a good thing for the home owner all the way around.  I will also say that way too much politics are involved in it to a degree, saying this on just what I've seen  from lumber yards and comments made from contractors.  Kiln dried ht'd wood is critical for housing, now days anyway, I've seen old farm houses solid as a rock built from green, that stood up to storms that modern lumber may not have, techniques in building are tried and true with green lumber,(non stamped, or heat treated) but then again rules must be enforced to protect the consumer,  understood.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

hunz

I am somewhat in the same boat as you with the what and how's of getting structural lumber graded in NC. I was told by my building department in Henderson county, that I could use beams sawn from timber on my land to build a personal dwelling without being graded. Framing lumber was another topic, and had to be graded. I have heard that graders will come out for $350/day if you can schedule one. Who knows, never tried setting that up though. I'll be building my first home soon, and will have to cross some of these bridges, I'll be more than glad to update then. Hopefully someone who has dealt with a lumber grader can give more insight....
Dream as if you'll saw forever; saw as if you'll die today.



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Magicman

Thankfully only one county in my area (65 miles away) has enacted a grade stamped framing lumber ordinance/permitting and I have turned down many jobs from that county.  Many potential customer don't know that they can not used ungraded framing lumber, so I have to explain it to them so that they do not have lumber sawed that they can not use.

The only requirement in the other counties is that the architectural drawings specify that #2 and/or rough sawn framing lumber be used.  That makes the lending institution, homeowner's insurance company, and the carpenters happy plus the county gets the additional tax $$$.
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kczbest

My County is one of two in the State of Mississippi that has a building inspection department. I only know of one person who has paid SPIB to inspect and stamp rough sawn lumber. According to him he had more $ in it when all was said and done than he could have bought it for at the lumber yard. I have no first hand knowledge of this, just passing along what I was told.
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Verticaltrx

Is this for your own house? If so you might be ok. As I recall, a year or two ago NC passed a law allowing a person to build with ungraded lumber for their own dwelling if the wood came from their property. I think there were some other stipulations and I don't remember the specifics, but it is something you should look up. Something along the lines of alternative building or homesteading.

Another thing that was discussed on here was making your own grade stamp and stamping away. (again, I'd only try this if it were for your own use/own dwelling). Apparently the wording in the 'law' covering grading and the use of graded lumber are written vaguely, and it basically states that lumber must be graded by an accredited agency. Nowhere does it state who those agencies must be or what it means to be an 'accepted' or 'accredited' agency. Read a book, maybe take a little class, and make yourself an official stamp (of your own design) and you could argue you are a valid grading 'agency'. If you really do your homework you can probably find a creative way around all this. Again, I wouldn't try any of this if you are selling lumber or building for someone else, or if you require a loan, homeowners insurance, or anything like that.

I do believe building codes are good in many instances, but when it's your own dwelling and they are forcing you to buy into the 'system' I have real problems with that. The whole system is a bureaucratic disaster, which is why as a contractor I have chosen to only build barns, sheds and other non-inspected/non-permit structures. Everything I build the lumber comes straight off the mill and is constructed the same way it would have been 100yrs ago. Too bad they make it so difficult for a man to build his own house this way anymore...
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landscraper

Quote from: Verticaltrx on February 25, 2015, 09:43:56 AM
Is this for your own house? If so you might be ok. As I recall, a year or two ago NC passed a law allowing a person to build with ungraded lumber for their own dwelling if the wood came from their property. I think there were some other stipulations and I don't remember the specifics, but it is something you should look up. Something along the lines of alternative building or homesteading.

I wish they would pass that law in Virginia. 
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Magicman

QuoteI wish they would pass that law in Virginia.
But first they passed a law dis-allowing it.  :-\
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ncsawyer

Quote from: Verticaltrx on February 25, 2015, 09:43:56 AM
Is this for your own house? If so you might be ok. As I recall, a year or two ago NC passed a law allowing a person to build with ungraded lumber for their own dwelling if the wood came from their property. I think there were some other stipulations and I don't remember the specifics, but it is something you should look up. Something along the lines of alternative building or homesteading.


No, it is not for me.  I have had several people want me to saw their logs into lumber to be used for a garage or building that will require a building permit.  My response has always been no because I know that the building inspector will not allow them to use the lumber for their project.  I am just trying to gather information.  I was hoping there was a way for me to mill their logs and then for them to get the lumber graded to use in their structures. 
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Verticaltrx

Quote from: ncsawyer on February 25, 2015, 09:59:55 PMNo, it is not for me.  I have had several people want me to saw their logs into lumber to be used for a garage or building that will require a building permit.  My response has always been no because I know that the building inspector will not allow them to use the lumber for their project.  I am just trying to gather information.  I was hoping there was a way for me to mill their logs and then for them to get the lumber graded to use in their structures. 


Not sure what to tell you on that then. The further removed from the building process you are (as just the sawyer, not the owner or contractor) the tougher I think it will be to use lumber off the mill. Search back on here for the guy who was making and using his own grade stamp, I think he was in Arkansas. Might be something to look into if you don't mind the legal and civil disobedience aspect of it. I think it would be cost prohibitive to have one of the 'bureaus' come out and inspect the lumber for you, and that's probably by design.

That said, you can still supply them with all the non-structural lumber they need as it doesn't have to be graded. Floor and roof decking, siding, trim, wood for forms, etc.

Quote from: landscraper on February 25, 2015, 06:10:06 PM

I wish they would pass that law in Virginia.

Me too, I think if enough people got behind it there is a chance it could.
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Alligator

We had SPIB stamps as far back as I remember. As I recall the annual subscription fee was not bad and very necessary, if you produced at least 1 to 2 million board feet of dimension lumber a year. I got certified to grade fairly easy as we already had a couple of graders. Your question is going to be whether you can sell enough graded lumber to justify the expense of getting certified and cover the annual subscription fee. The biggest issue we had in grading (we were all air dried) was moisture content. I think I remember that 16% was very most allowed, and for good reason. Anything over starts bluing in the pack. The other rules were pretty common sense rules.

#2 & better SYP (to the best of my recollection)
no spike knots wider than 1/3 the width or 1/2 the thickness
no wain longer than longer than 1/4 the length, 1/2 the thickness, or 1/4 the width
no crooks greater then 1/2 the thickness of the piece (I think)
must be less than 16% moisture content
no more than 5% off grade per pack

Reference list

Alberta Forest Products Association (AFPA) - info@albertaforestproducts.ca    www.albertaforestproducts.ca
Canadian Mill Services Association (CMSA) - info@canserve.org   www.canserve.org
Canadian Softwood Inspection Agency (CSI)/ MacDonald Inspection (MI) - info@canadiansoftwood.com      www.canadiansoftwood.com
Central Forest Products Association (CFPA) - info@albertaforestproducts.ca
Continental Inspection Agency (CI) - drdodgerman@sbcglobal.net      http://home.comcast.net/~jsnowak/index.html
Council of Forest Industries (COFI) - info@cofi.org    www.cofi.org
Maritime Lumber Bureau (MLB) - mlb@ns.sympatico.ca    www.mlb.ca
Newfoundland & Labrador Lumber Producers Association (NLLPA) - nllpa@nf.sympatico.ca    www3.nf.sympatico.ca/nllpa
Northeastern Lumber Manufacturers Association (NeLMA) - info@nelma.org    www.nelma.org
Northern Softwood Lumber Bureau (NSLB) - info@nelma.org
Ontario Forest Industries Association (OFIA) - info@ofia.com     www.ofia.com      www.cla-ca.ca
Ontario Lumber Manufacturers Association (OLMA) - aboucher@olma.ca    www.olma.ca
Pacific Lumber Inspection Bureau (PLIB) - info@plib.org      www.plib.org
Quebec Forest Industry Council (QFIC) - info@cifq.qc.ca   www.cifq.qc.ca
Redwood Inspection Service (RIS) - info@calredwood.org   www.calredwood.org
Renewable Resource Associates, Inc. (RRA) - lon@rrainc.net
Southern Pine Inspection Bureau (SPIB) - spib@spib.org      www.spib.org
Stafford Inspection & Consulting, LLC (SIWP) - info@staffordinspection.com     www.staffordinspection.com
Timber Products Inspection (TP) - dconner@tpinspection.com       www.tpinspection.com
West Coast Lumber Inspection Bureau (WCLIB) - info@wclib.org     www.wclib.org
Western Wood Products Association (WWPA) - info@wwpa.org    www.wwpa.org

The following agencies provide heat treatment audit services only:

American Wood Inspections Services (AWIS) - craig@heattreatinspections.com      www.heattreatinspections.com
Carolina Inspection Services (CIS) - cis@carolinainspection.com     www.carolinainspection.com
Conway & Robison, LLC (C&R) - jason@cr-inspect.com     www.cr-inspect.com
Export Wood Packaging Inspection Service (EWPI) - info@exportwoodpi.com     www.exportwoodpi.com
Lee Inspection & Consulting Services, Inc. (LIWP) - dkirk.stokes@gmail.com     www.leeinspect.com
Missouri Forest Products Association (MFPA) - moforest@moforest.org     www.heattreatinspectors.com
Package Research Laboratory (PRL) - ddixon@package-testing.com    www.package-testing.com
Wood Research and Development (WRD) - admin@woodrandd.com     www.woodrandd.com

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Bystrika

I've recently contacted SPIB with same question, this is what I got in reply:
To initiate services the following actions need to occur:

- Site visit by one of our field representatives to discuss and review your facilities. He would verify your sawing, drying and planing capabilities. The American Lumber Standard Committee requires that the mill be in a fixed location (not portable). The method of drying needs to be verified. To mark lumber as Kiln Dried the heat chamber must be capable of heating the lumber to 172 degrees.

-  Sign a service contract. This would cover the period when the ability of your graders to correctly label the lumber by grade is verified.

- Grade Mark Agreement. This agreement would license your mill to apply the SPIB grade mark to the lumber.

Once the grade mark agreement is signed our inspector would make a minimum of one visit per month to verify that the marked lumber is correctly labeled. Larger mills might need  more visits per month, but the fees (0.36 / 1000 BdFt of shipments) includes any additional visits. The Minimum fee is $350.00 / month. If the shipments exceeded 973 thousand BF in a month the fee shifts to a footage basis.

We do not require a minimum period for a contract but we do not have a provision for coming in and out as a subscriber.

beenthere

Welcome to the Forestry Forum

Are you considering an agreement with SPIB?

Pretty straight forward on the terms that they spelled out. i.e. no surprises there.
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Magicman

Welcome to the Forestry Forum Bystrika, and thank you for your input. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

TnAndy

Time to do what I've done.  Have a sit down with your State legislator, explain the problem, and get on the road to taking back control of use of Native Timber.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,81826.0.html

We've all been to Lowes and Home Depot and seen the crap they sell with a stamp, a lot of which comes from the West Coast or Canada.  Go look at a bundle of studs....you'll see the tree center in 75% of them.  WHAT are they cutting out there that results in that ?  Yeah....we all know.  Saplings, for the most part.

Who wouldn't take a nice, clear white pine, hemlock or yellow poplar from your own land in place of that overpriced crap ?

Time to take control back from the big boys.

Price, quality, service....
    Pick any two

Brucer

Quote from: Verticaltrx on February 25, 2015, 09:43:56 AM
... Apparently the wording in the 'law' covering grading and the use of graded lumber are written vaguely, and it basically states that lumber must be graded by an accredited agency. Nowhere does it state who those agencies must be or what it means to be an 'accepted' or 'accredited' agency. ...

Laws may vary from one jurisdiction to another. However, the accreditation process is definitely spelled out. In Canada accreditation is the responsibility of the Canadian Lumber Standards Accreditation Board, and in the the US it's the responsibility of the American Lumber Standard Committee. These two organizations co-ordinate their standards so lumber graded in one country can be used in the other.

Each board accredits member associations or agencies. These agencies can in turn accredit individual sawmills and issue grading stamps.

The process for obtaining a grade stamp in Canada are similar those posted by Bystrika. I can pay one of the grading agencies to come and grade my wood, or I can go through the hoops to get my own stamp. If I get my own stamp, I will have to be audited once a month to ensure that I'm conforming to the grading standards. In BC I can shut down my operation for several months and pay only a nominal fee to maintain my membership. However, the agency has to take back my stamps while I'm shut down.

Arky once said that a stamp doesn't make a board any stronger (which is true). But that isn't the point. When engineers size timbers or lumber for a specific job, they need to be sure the lumber has the necessary strength and stiffness to do the job. Lumber grades are standardized to ensure that the lumber in each grade meets minimum strength requirements. The grading agencies license and audit individual graders and/or mills to ensure that they are grading the lumber properly. The building inspector looks for the grade stamp (at least in theory) to make sure the lumber has been properly graded. It's basically a system to ensure that the wood that ends up in a building is adequate to carry the intended loads.

The grade stamp system also carries some protection against liability. If you've been issued a grade stamp and are using it according to the rules, you won't be in the crosshairs if some of your wood fails. If you are really bad at grading but the agency that accredited you doesn't catch it, they're the ones who get stuck with the liability (and they have insurance).

Back in the day (50 odd years ago) when I worked in a sawmill, all the wood was visually graded. Most of the time it was much better looking than the cra garbage you see in the box stores today. Then they figured out how to machine-grade the lumber, by applying a load to it and seeing how much it deflected. That's when the lumber started looking so bad. It was strong enough and stiff enough to meet the specs (never mind that you'd get boards with so much wane that you'd never be able to nail a sheet of plywood to it >:().
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beenthere

Box stores get the dregs..  what's leftover after the better looking and higher grade is creamed off the top. 2x4's in box stores are not much to look at, for sure. The 2x4's in truss's and engineered products get the best.
There is a minimum wane allowance, but also a % that can get through that doesn't meet the grade.

Kinda like the grain markets, where a certain allowance of dirt is ok. Grain shippers will add dirt to bring it up to that allowance.. as it sells for good bucks as grain. ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

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