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Advice on holding thin cants

Started by jrose1970, February 18, 2015, 10:37:52 AM

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jrose1970

Good Morning,
   I was wondering if anyone could advise me on how to hold a thin, tall can't that is say 5 inches wide and 10 inches tall. The only cut I've mastered is cutting really wide 1 Xs. The log dog tilts the cant over when it gets thin.
I have a Hudson HFE-36.
Thanks in advance!
HFE-36; International 424-37HP; McCullogh Pro 10-10

Remle

I'm not familiar with your mill, but even with my WM LT 40 HD, I raise the back stop as high as I can leaving only about 2 board thicknesses and lower the front clamp to its lowest holding position on the log. This gives you, your maximum holding power. Just remember to lower the back stop as you cut or bad things will happen. :D :D :D

beenthere

Don't try to dog it down too tight. Snug is good.

Dog it at half height, or just below the cut. Then flip it over and re-dog it.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

terrifictimbersllc

LT40 2 plane clamp here.  Raising backstops good, clamp below cut, but check that cant is on bunks not tilted.  Lower backstops as the cutting proceeds.  I can also clamp below cut, then pull the clamp down a bit to remove any tilt.  Providing the clamp is not too tight.  Got to make sure the work is secure, the less well I think something is clamped, the slower I go so as not to have the blade pull it over during the cut which ruins wood, or worse.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

downsouth

When I had my last mill (LT15) I had to be sure to not clamp to tight as it would always tilt the cant. As beenthere said  just snug it up.

drobertson

Yea, it sounds like maybe your backstops are allowing the cant to tilt.   Make sure they are square and keep them as high as you can without sawing into them, as to the clamp, not sure on your mill, figure out how to get a good hold without rocking,  I too keep things high as possible and keep flipping the cant when needed, watching for the stress relief of the cant.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Chuck White

All good advice given, but the biggest culprit is clamping to tight, second culprit would be backstops not square with the bunks!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Peter Drouin

I did not like how the clamp will slip sometimes so I have teeth. :D :D :D




  

 


With the ice it helps, Maybe you can have a tooth too. :D :D ;D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

justallan1

I believe I have the same one piece clamping system on my Hfe-21 and found to hold up on the stop and push down on your clamp and then clamp it worked best. I agree that the biggest problem is you may be clamping it to tight and flexing the whole works, I know I did.
I finally made adjustable stops on mine because me being heavy handed and not wanting to spend the time to do it right was causing me to saw out of square.

Allan

Darrel

My mill used to do the same thing 'till I figured out I was clamping too tight. To tight is easy to do with hydraulics.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

Cedarman

Watch your cant as you clamp.  Look for movement of the cant.  If too tight, you will see it lift off the bed just a bit.  The cant will look like it rocks just a wee bit also if you look closely.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

jrose1970

Thank you all very much. I learned to just snug it up. On your HFE-21, I do believe the log dogs are the same. Is the front clamp's height adjustable? I haven't even thought to look and see.  That would solve everything. That's good advice to pull up on the back and push down on the front. I'm a little jealous of the clamp with teethe. LOL
  The log dogs work great for logs, but I think there is a market for a modified clamping system once the cant is square. :)
HFE-36; International 424-37HP; McCullogh Pro 10-10

Verticaltrx

A few tricks or modifications to try (I have a Hud-son as well):

First, once you have a square cant just use the clamp and the little 1" tall 'blocks' along the track to clamp to. The moveable backstops are only for the first few cuts as you make a square cant. Make sure you have the clamps set right and not backwards, so you can make use of these blocks.

Second, on the initial cuts, like getting the second side square to the first, keep the backstops/clamps as vertical as possible while still allowing the saw to pass. You can also insert a shim (I use little wood shims like you'd shim a door or window with) at the top or bottom of the backstop to adjust the tilt a little. You can use a square or a level to make sure your cants are square.

Third, if you are having trouble with the backstop sliding down when you try to clamp it there are several modifications you can do to make it bite better. There are a few threads on here and pics on the internet of things people have done, basically just welding a small short spike on the end of the backstop so it will bite. If you don't want to do that you could also try just tapping a nail in below the backstop to keep it up while you clamp. Drive it in so there is just enough sticking out that the mill frame will still clear, just be sure to pull the nail back out lol

Hope some of this helps, in stock form the Hud-son clamps are a bit fidgety but with some simple modifications they work pretty well.
Wood-Mizer LT15G19

jrose1970

Thanks for the tips!  I did get the log dogs backward. The 1" blocks should be on the "chip" side of the blade shouldn't they? I turned by log dogs around to match the sawmill, but then I realized the tracks had the 1" blocks.
:)  I have to move the whole thing, so when I do, I will get it right this time. LOL
HFE-36; International 424-37HP; McCullogh Pro 10-10

redbeard

Another trick learned from the forum. Make some saddles that fit over the bunks with a fixed stop. Use some peices of broken blades fastened to top of fixed stops to bite into can't. I haven't tried this yet but thought it was a good idea.
Whidbey Woodworks and Custom Milling  2019 Cooks AC 3662T High production band mill and a Hud-son 60 Diesel wide cut bandmill  JD 2240 50hp Tractor with 145 loader IR 1044 all terrain fork lift  Cooks sharp

pineywoods

Maybe a dumb question...unless your mill is one of those that saws toward the clamp,( most mills saw toward the backstops) why do you need to clamp a cant ? Once a flat side is down on the bunks, I never clamp, been sawing that way for 15 years. If the cant tries to slide sideways, that's why the backstops are there...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

justallan1

Here's what I did on mine. I had built a "box" to get it up off the ground, so it may very well not work for everyone. When I got tired of flexing the clamping system, from me not wanting to take the time and do it right, I took square tubing and welded it vertical inside the frame and have smaller square tubing that fits inside of those and slides up and down for my stops. I drilled a hole in the stationary pieces of tubing, welded a nut over the hole and made a "T" with a couple bolts to lock it down. The bonus of this is that I have stops to roll a log into when loading the logs on the tracks without fear of the rolling off the far side.
If you look on the "log bunks" you will see a small nub about an inch high. Those are what Verticaltrx was referring to when he said after the initial cuts you can just use them. I fully agree.
I also like mine for edging boards much better.
Allan




 

BmoreReclaimed

I'm not familiar with Hudson, but I would say my Lt15 clamps are better suited to hold logs than cants.  They seem to always push up when too snug.  I installed a few "Pony" pipe clamps that I use in addition, their max height is 1 inch from bed and I feel their clamping action is straighter, less raising. 
Not mentioned yet, I have my dogs set so that they are tilted slightly in, so when you tighten clamp it squares it out.

jrose1970

Thanks pineywoods, I had about come to the same conclusion about clamping. I couldn't figure out how to do a cant that is say 10" tall but only about 2" wide when you were cutting 2 x 4's. I really like justallen1's setup.
You can lower the back as you cut down the cant. With that if you wanted to have a little snug clamp really low on the front, you could.
  Alright, now I just need to go practice what you all have taught me. :)
Thanks everyone!
HFE-36; International 424-37HP; McCullogh Pro 10-10

Verticaltrx

Quote from: jrose1970 on February 20, 2015, 10:47:41 AM
Thanks pineywoods, I had about come to the same conclusion about clamping. I couldn't figure out how to do a cant that is say 10" tall but only about 2" wide when you were cutting 2 x 4's. I really like justallen1's setup.
You can lower the back as you cut down the cant. With that if you wanted to have a little snug clamp really low on the front, you could.
  Alright, now I just need to go practice what you all have taught me. :)
Thanks everyone!

I think you might also look at using a different method of sawing. Instead of sawing through the log and getting multiple wide 2" thick slabs that you split to get 2x4's, I usually saw for a 4" wide cant and then saw that down 2" at a time to get 2x4's (or a 6, 8" wide cant for 2x6, 2x8, etc). With a mill the size of yours you can saw multiple 4 to 8" wide cants at a time and get lots of lumber off with each pass. The wider cants will sit nicely with the clamp, and 6-8" wide cants will sit with no clamping at all (assuming you swap your bed sections around.) Also, read the thread on sawing Framing lumber that was posted not too far back, it has lots of good pics and info on the matter. 
Wood-Mizer LT15G19

jrose1970

Hey thanks! That is a good idea to stack more that one cant on the mill at a time. They would sit on the
bed a lot more stable. That's what I'll do. We have a lot of trees down from the ice storm. We had over one inch of ice, but about 20 miles north of us they had literally two inches of ice! It looks like a warzone north of Crossville Tennessee. A lot of those trees are all split up though.
HFE-36; International 424-37HP; McCullogh Pro 10-10

5quarter

I'm with piney on the clamping. until your cant gets down below a certain size, depending on weight, there is generally not enough lateral force to tilt your cant. Also, as was mentioned, try to keep the narrowest dimension of the cant horizontal with the bunks whenever possible.
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

jrose1970

Hey,
  I just wanted to share this. We put 1" x 6"-10" siding a shed this weekend from lumber that I cut. LOL
Needless to say, I learned a LOT about what not to do. :) I reckon that's the best way to learn.
It was comical when we got to the bottom of the pile. Those were the first boards that I ever cut on a sawmill. But it didn't turn out too terrible.
HFE-36; International 424-37HP; McCullogh Pro 10-10

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