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Belsaw M-14 MAJOR Walkout of log

Started by dustyjay, February 06, 2015, 11:40:49 AM

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dustyjay

Hi folks,
I am searching for some opinions on what to do next.
I have a foley Belsaw M-14 you can see in my pics if you want and it has so far been a two year battle with ups and downs to get it going the way I want. The old fellow I bought the saw from never did much maintenance. I had it pretty good until recently. New teeth fixed (or covered) problems last year and it was cutting 1x8x14 boards with 1/8" accuracy from tip to tail.

I don't mill all the time, and often go 4-6 weeks in between uses. I have been cutting some pine that is about as large as the mill will take (14-16" diamter) I have to take a slab off these boards, turn, slab, turn slab, etc until I can cut off some resaws and get a square timber.

My problem is that on the 3rd such big log the saw started running out horribly. I quit for the day and came back a few days later. Same problem. By terribly I mean I am now getting a beam 4"x8" on the tip and 6"x8" on the tail. >:(

I have taken the carriage off and rebuilt it to tighten that up. The track is straight and level through it's entire distance, the lead is 3/32", and I have filed all of the teeth with a guide for this saw and tooth.

My questions are: What have I done to cause the saw to go from cutting so well to cutting so poorly? What can I do next to fix it? I hate to take the driveshaft out or remove the blade for rehammering, but is that what I should think about next?  Who has the most experience rebuilding such a saw and wants to help me get it going right?
Thanks,
Jay
Proper prior planning prevents pith poor performance

Ron Wenrich

Your logs froze for one thing.  Are you getting a caking of sawdust on your log?  That will push your saw.  It will wear out your saw guides to the point they need to be repositioned or replaced.  If your logs haven't frozen the whole way, you'll be cutting frozen and unfrozen wood.  That can also cause headaches.

If your shanks are worn out, then you are getting spillage out of the gullet and down the saw.  That heats and your saw won't stand straight.  Add that with the frozen logs and you have problems. 

If you are sawing through any amount of dirt, you could have worn one side of your tooth more than the other.  You'll need to swage your teeth and get both sides even with a spider gauge.  That should help if it's a problem.

Do you make a habit of brushing the log with your saw to try to true up your cut?  I've always found the pushed the saw and my next cut was a miscut.  Always take a cutting, even if its only 1/4".  Brushing the log pushes the saw and also heats it up.

Take a little lead off your saw.  You can run with less lead in the winter on frozen logs.  Also, works much better.  With all those things fighting against you, you'll have to work around it until things warm up.

Last thing is to learn how to shotgun barrel your logs.  You'll be able to cut much bigger logs.  What size blade are you running?  I ran mills that would cut 20", but cut logs up to 42".  It involves turning a log more, but you'll get to cut bigger logs.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Joe Hillmann

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on February 06, 2015, 11:58:03 AM


Last thing is to learn how to shotgun barrel your logs.  You'll be able to cut much bigger logs.  What size blade are you running?  I ran mills that would cut 20", but cut logs up to 42".  It involves turning a log more, but you'll get to cut bigger logs.

Do you mind starting another thread explaining what you mean by "shotgun barrel"-ing your logs?

sealark37

Is your mill situated where your wife or daughter can back into it when they leave in the car?

DMcCoy

So the run out, 2" is a huge difference.  Did it push the carriage off the track?
I have had this happen only a few times. I run 1/8" lead (plenty for my blade)  Assuming you don't need to have your blade hammered.
1) Teeth dulled on the log side?
2) Saw blade heating from the closest mandrel bearing.
If the blade starts to rub the log from either of these two then it can get worse quickly as the heating feeds back into more saw dishing, more rubbing at the center of the blade.  Because it got worse the longer you used the mill, the above two is where I would look first.
3) Carriage off the track. If you back up too far to where a wheel could fall off the guide track what happens?

Gearbox

I haven't seen a belsaw up close for years . I'm wondering if the carrage setworks is in time . Check each bunk to the same tooth on the saw . Gearbox
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

bandmiller2

Dusty, I can't really add much to what Ron said, but it seems once a saw gets heated they need to be rehammered. Are your bits and shanks in good shape.? A Farmall "C" doesn't have the moxie for big logs, was the saw slowing down in the cut.? Its tough to give any meaningfull advice, especially as everything on a circular mill affects everything else. Looks like you put a good foundation under it, frost heaves can play hobb with alignment. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Joe Lallande

I had the same problem last year before I had my blade re hammered and new teeth installed.  I also found my guide rails were out of alignment half way down the carriage.  I was surprised how quickly the blade would heat up in the middle of an 8' log.  Once the blade heated I could flex it like a paper plate.

dean herring

I can't offer any input on your sawing problems, but I like your mill shed, did you cut the lumber for it  and build it yourself? What size is it and what is the roof pitch? I really like your corner bolting method.
Failure is not an option  3D Lumber

dustyjay

Thanks folks for the advice. I've been digging out of the storm and haven't been up to the mill. I'll give a few more details as questions have come up.

I have been guilty of trying to shave off the front edge of the log, but now I see how that's a bit idiotic and will heat one side of the blade. ::)

Carriage set works are in sync. To double check I measured from the front of each side back to the far (from the saw) side of the carriage. I also measured from the near side of the log at both ends before cutting. I'll measure from bunk to tooth next time I'm up.

I still think teeth and lead are OK but I'll swage/ resharpen teeth next time too. If that does not improve I'll reduce lead. DMcCoy what do you mean about saw heating from the closest mandrel bearing? Heat from the mandrel going to saw?

When I was cutting this I was powering the mill with a Kubota 50 horse tractor. Maybe it's overpowered?
The saw is a 42" blade.

Backing a car into this mill would be a trick right now. It's 1/4 mile in across the field and brook under about 3' of snow. :D It might be a trick getting my tractor up there next week.

Three questions:
Where can I get the blade rehammered if I decide to do that? (Preferably in New England)
Who has had their blades rehammered?
If you've ever restored one of these mills, did you eventually reach a point where your run time was actually greater than your down time?

Dean yeah I did mill about 40% of the posts and beams for the shed. The roof are trusses built by the local supply store. The frame went up in October so I bought the trusses to be able to put them up fast. The building's 48X24. 6x6 posts and beams. 6X8 beams support the trusses, with a 4:12 roof pitch. All joints are reinforced butt joints- again for speed.
I'd really like to get this cutting well so I can build a real timber frame and practice my joinery.
Proper prior planning prevents pith poor performance

DMcCoy

My old belsaw has babbit bearings which can get warm.  This heat is transferred to the sawshaft, collar, and eventually to the saw blade.  I ran water on both sides of my blade and onto the bearing to keep it cool.  Many will say that is a bad practice but it fixed my heating issues with out me having buy or at least rebuild my mandrel. 
I cannot tell what kind of bearing you have but you might check to see if it gets hot or not.  What you describe I have had happen.  That your problem gets worse the longer you run your mill my guess is you have heating issues from somewhere, once your saw starts to dish it goes down hill really quick and you should stop. 
Your blade may need hammering to get it off the list of possible causes.
You may already know this, when you set your lead- measure to the same tooth by rotating the blade.  I also used a piece of metal clamped to the carriage to measure from, I didn't measure lead off the bunks in case they wiggle as the carriage moves.

As far as your questions about maintenance/set up vs sawing time.  I never kept track of my time. 
I set mine on concrete footings and used 6x8 beams for a base.  Once level I never had to adjust this.  I never had to readjust lead but I did make heavier adjusters with longer attachment than the Belsaw originals.  The bunks were a PITA.  I was constantly adjusting these as they seemed to get banged around alot.  They are too light in my opinion.  I was sawing big logs for such a light mill.  Yes it 'could' do it but the setworks really were not designed for it.  I think it would take a full rebuild/redesign to fix the flaws.  I step up to an American or other such sized mill was what I really should have done.   

Lambee10

Looks like a lot of good advice to look at on the mill.  When I first got mine running I was getting the same wedge lumber (2x4 going to a 2x6)  As I watched the carriage move a log through the blade I watched my gauge.  I could see it moving which told me my set works was moving.  I had to work on the gears and the flip, directional lock to be sure it was not skipping teeth.  It was. 

I cleaned the teeth, sharpened the lock so it seats better in the teeth, put new teeth on the blade (good advice I got from Frank or someone to start with sharp teeth so I know what that feels like)   and checked the lead.  It started working good at that point.

One thing that does make the carriage go off track is trying to adjust the setworks (move the gauge) with a round log already in the dogs.  It does not slide, it rolls which picks the setworks up out of the slots on the carriage and can re-position it in different holes. 
This prolly makes no sense to anyone but me but my 2 sense. :)
All animals like me...at feeding time.

M-14 Belsaw and the toys to go with it.

Ron Wenrich

I used to have my saws hammered every fall, and that's when I changed my shanks.  I usually had a couple of million bf by that time.   

Give a call to one of your local mills and see where they take their saws.  Our saw doc had a circuit he would travel and he would stop by the mill every month.  He sold teeth, mill supplies, and some logging supplies.  Maybe there is one in your area.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

DMcCoy

Quote from: Lambee10 on February 10, 2015, 12:50:39 PM
Looks like a lot of good advice to look at on the mill.  When I first got mine running I was getting the same wedge lumber (2x4 going to a 2x6)  As I watched the carriage move a log through the blade I watched my gauge.  I could see it moving which told me my set works was moving.  I had to work on the gears and the flip, directional lock to be sure it was not skipping teeth.  It was. 

I cleaned the teeth, sharpened the lock so it seats better in the teeth, put new teeth on the blade (good advice I got from Frank or someone to start with sharp teeth so I know what that feels like)   and checked the lead.  It started working good at that point.

One thing that does make the carriage go off track is trying to adjust the setworks (move the gauge) with a round log already in the dogs.  It does not slide, it rolls which picks the setworks up out of the slots on the carriage and can re-position it in different holes. 
This prolly makes no sense to anyone but me but my 2 sense. :)

Very, very good advice.  I had forgotten these issues until you mentioned them.  X2.
My carriage has some sort of keeper that could have been home made.   It wrapped around under the channel base and it was supposed to prevent the bunks from lifting and skipping teeth.  Keeping it snug enough to allow the bunks to slide but tight enough to keep them from lifting was frustrating.
Like mentioned above the set works on mine were loose as well.  I would push the log back and then pull it forward with the set works so there was pressure forward toward the blade to keep the set works tight.  That pawl they use was a single on my mill.  Bigger mills like the American used a few pawls of different lengths to prevent push back.   Should you get between teeth on the belsaw setworks your bunks can move adding taper on lumber.

bandmiller2

Belsaw mills will cut some fine boards if they are set up and handled properly. You have to be gentle with larger (any) logs trim the branch nubs flush. Chock the round logs with small pieces of sticken and don't crowd them around with the set works. Any mill, be sure your track and carriage wheels are smooth, a carriage running over rough track will allow cants to shift and let the saw push or pull it if the lead is not right. Use enough power its tough on a saw to slow in the cut and it can lead to heating. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

loggah

On the back of your setworks there should be a 3/8" bolt with locknut,under the bolt theres supposed to be a brass pin,this is adjusted to keep your setworks from moving easily. You may have to tighten it up.

 

you can see the bolt and locknut right behind the small pinion gear.The brass pin rubs on the 1" shaft ! Don
Interests: Lombard Log Haulers,Tucker Sno-Cats, Circular Sawmills, Shingle Mills, Maple Syrup Making, Early Construction Equipment, Logging Memorabilia, and Antique Firearms

Lambee10

Quote from: loggah on February 11, 2015, 08:34:52 AM
On the back of your setworks there should be a 3/8" bolt with locknut,under the bolt theres supposed to be a brass pin,this is adjusted to keep your setworks from moving easily. You may have to tighten it up.

 

you can see the bolt and locknut right behind the small pinion gear.The brass pin rubs on the 1" shaft ! Don

Now I got to go look at mine to see what mine looks like.  Funny you play with all the time but you cannot remember :D


I do have some straps that hold the setworks down to the carriage.  and yes it is a bit of a struggle to find the right amount of tension to allow the setworks to move and also keep it in from skipping teeth. 
All animals like me...at feeding time.

M-14 Belsaw and the toys to go with it.

DMcCoy

There are so many little details to check.  You might also check your guide wheels for side play, the idlers don't matter so much.
How is the flatness of your track end to end, side to side?  I leveled mine with a transit.  I measured off the front of the carriage side to side while moving the carriage by hand.  Once I had a long section of leveled track I moved the carriage onto that section and checked the carriage at all 4 corners or where there was wheels underneath.  Once I got the carriage level to itself, I went back and leveled that portion of track that was under the carriage when I started.

That picture of loggah's setworks.  His carriage straps have adjusters on the top, mine doesn't.  That would take 90% of the frustration out of getting those set right and would hold better.   

jimparamedic

Are you crowding the saw? Is your feed rate to horsepower to fast? I have had this problem when I first started sawing. A saw is like a woman it takes time but you have to learn to listen for a good relation ship. Also it might soud funny but are you sawing the log from the right end. Does not always work this way but I have found that most of my run out problems happen when putting the small end to the saw first. Saw on brother don't give in you'll figure it out.

Remle

I agree with  jimparamedic, to my way of thinking, sawing from the large end of logs with no branches allows a duller blade to cross the grain quicker and not follow the growth ring flare.  Branches have the same flare pattern where they connect to the main stem, only up side down, so I cut from the top down on all logs with branches. To me it makes no difference blade or band mill, the blade tends to follow the flare as the get duller.

dustyjay

Since it has been so cold and snowy I brought the carriage of the mill inside and have completely torn it down and cleaned it up. Here's a pic from last night. All parts got a coat of linseed oil and will get painted before reassembly. I'm going to clean and paint the rest of the mill too as I go about a total rebuild.



 

There's still a lot of original paint on there (under all the grease and dirt).
Proper prior planning prevents pith poor performance

Possum Creek

Looks good, while you are rebuilding check the cable drum it only has a roll pin to hold it to the shaft, mine sheared while sawing an oak log that pinched the saw and that was not fun.      PC

Cutting Edge

Quote from: dustyjay on March 09, 2015, 10:25:31 AM

I'm going to clean and paint the rest of the mill too as I go about a total rebuild.

There's still a lot of original paint on there.


I'll be looking forward to this.  Love to see ole' iron brought back to life.   ;D

It may be the the light, but that shade of orange almost looks like the orange-ish/red Heston uses on their farm equipment.  If so, it'll be easy to match.

"Winning an argument isn't everything, as long as you are heard and understood" - W.S.


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thurlow

Being totally retarred (dirt farmer/cattleman/logger/mechanic/carpenter and a couple dozen other related occupations), I don't saw much any more;  have had a M-14 w/46 inch blade (bought new) since Fido was a pup.  EVERY problem I ever had (after the initial learning curve) was related to the teeth..........and "1/8 accuracy from tip to tail" is totally unacceptable.
Here's to us and those like us; DanG few of us left!

Andries

Seems that you're getting excellent advice on the nuts 'n bolts from experienced people.
A more "Northern" bit of advice is to suspect frost heave. Weather has been extreme in your part of the world (no need to tell you) and ground water freezing up can throw your mills alignment out severely.
I've been dealing with this same issue to get my 52' of steel lined up as the ground goes through its annual cycle. I've taken to using a laser beam at dusk to tweak my setup.
Good luck with your mill!
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